God Loves Homosexuals

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joeybaggz said:
Given the widespread division among people (including hatred and violence), which is better, a structured, teaching institution that speaks with one voice in interpreting a library of writings that are inspired by God to teach man about God, or a plethora of individual interpretations of that book that is, in the mind of modern day ‘experts’, little more than a compilation of ancient ramblings that have no relevance to modern society?
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Right - what is better? to believe and fail, or to not believe and fail?
 
Buffalo

Your response to part of my post:

Right - what is better? to believe and fail, or to not believe and fail?

Further clarification of the word fail in the context of the post would be appreciated. I can take your reply a couple of different ways.

(And pardon me but I don’t quite get the cut and paste features of this site)
 
Publisher said:
No, not really a problem at all. I discovered that gay people are simply “people”…different, but people still. There was a time when I embraced a more…“conservative” view to the point I held similar views as you… but that was decades ago…I came to know some gay people…some good honest caring people who lived the Truth out before me in such a way I was no longer able to see them in the same way…I have embraced a belief system that makes sense to me…I do not follow blindly…I do not believe you follow blindly either…your belief system makes sense to you…mine does to me.
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Catholics too see gay people as simply “people…but different”. But in the same way that I do not approve of a family member sinning, neither do I approve of a gay person sinning. Both still great and good people searching for truth, but all prone to sin.

On a side note (keep in mind I haven’t read the following posts just yet, I’m getting there)…

I’d like to say thank you to all who are keeping this hot topic civil. It seems there’s an awful lot of disagreement going on, but I think in general we’ve kept pretty respectful. maybe not of the ideas, but at least of the people putting forth these ideas. To Publisher especially who seems the lone ranger here with the most radically different theological views. I certainly disagree with almost everything you’ve stated, but thank you for not getting too hot under the collar when the rest of us disagree.
 
joeybaggz said:
Buffalo

Your response to part of my post:

Right - what is better? to believe and fail, or to not believe and fail?

Further clarification of the word fail in the context of the post would be appreciated. I can take your reply a couple of different ways.

(And pardon me but I don’t quite get the cut and paste features of this site)
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In God’s eyes - it will be better to believe and fail to live the Catholic proposition, than to be arrogant and not believe what He has set forth and still fail. In other words, believe and try is worth more. It will be best to believe and succeed.
 
buffalo said:
Then we will continue the discussion and study the issues?
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Since I’ve entered the Way, it has been my lifelong goal to seek to understand my Creator and to find my place in His world. To serve as I am called and hopefully to make this world a better place when I leave than it was when I entered it.
 
Publisher said:
Thank you for the recommendation. I have looked at the Courage website, but I am not persuaded…but thanks for your concern all the same.
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I find it interesting that you would place more credence in the testimonies of active homosexuals who are living in opposition to the moral (and secular) traditions of most of the world’s cultures religions than you would in the personal witness of homosexuals who are trying to adhere to the teachings of their faith. You say you are not persuaded by the witness these folks offer. Is that simply because they have chosen to go against the “grain” of our current pop culture, where tolerance is god and acceptance of anything that contradicts traditional belief is suspect?

Most members of Courage (and their families in Encourage) are refugees of the lifestyle, who can bear witness to the majority experience of homosexuality. Are there exceptions? Sure. Every rule has it’s exception but that does not up-end the rule. And happiness is not a measure of morality. My sister, in a lesbian relationship of 20 years, may “feel” happy. This has no bearing on the morality of her lifestyle.
 
buffalo said:
See how easy it is to discern what we want to.

Any other guys willing to join the club?🙂
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You mean like choosing to allow the Church or the Bible to determine the morality of a homosexual act? Isn’t this a form of moral relativism?
 
blessedtoo said:
I find it interesting that you would place more credence in the testimonies of active homosexuals who are living in opposition to the moral (and secular) traditions of most of the world’s cultures religions than you would in the personal witness of homosexuals who are trying to adhere to the teachings of their faith. You say you are not persuaded by the witness these folks offer. Is that simply because they have chosen to go against the “grain” of our current pop culture, where tolerance is god and acceptance of anything that contradicts traditional belief is suspect?

Most members of Courage (and their families in Encourage) are refugees of the lifestyle, who can bear witness to the majority experience of homosexuality. Are there exceptions? Sure. Every rule has it’s exception but that does not up-end the rule. And happiness is not a measure of morality. My sister, in a lesbian relationship of 20 years, may “feel” happy. This has no bearing on the morality of her lifestyle.
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I have participated in PFLAG and have been part of “Listening Circles” in various religious traditions. In my own Meeting I have sat under the ministry of good Christian people who have provided much insight into their own personal struggles…I have seen and discussed these issue face to face…in my opinion these gay men and women have displayed grace and kindness towards those who would see them as “disordered”. Their friendship and witness has been humbling.
 
Valke2 said:
You mean like choosing to allow the Church or the Bible to determine the morality of a homosexual act? Isn’t this a form of moral relativism?
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God determines the morality of the act, not the Church or the bible.
 
There’s a button after a post that says “quote” you can click that on the post you would like to make a reference to and add what you like. I have no idea how to make several quotes in one post like others have somehow figured out how to do.
 
Publisher said:
I have participated in PFLAG and have been part of “Listening Circles” in various religious traditions. In my own Meeting I have sat under the ministry of good Christian people who have provided much insight into their own personal struggles…I have seen and discussed these issue face to face…in my opinion these gay men and women have displayed grace and kindness towards those who would see them as “disordered”. Their friendship and witness has been humbling.
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That’s all well and good, but does not address the morality of the homosexual act.

That is what I was trying to convey in my example of the guys deciding whether cheating on their wives is OK.

I think interviewing them as a way to determine morality is fatally flawed. What if the interviewees were druggies and lived on the streets. That may well determine your position.
 
buffalo said:
I am not sure what you are asking.
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As a christian, you adopt a set of beliefs which implicitly acknowledge that some things that were considered a sin before Jesus are no longer a sin. Most of these would be the ritualistic commandments that Jews believe still apply.

I’ve heard arguments that people who want to change what is right or wrong are being moral relativists. How is what they are doing different from what Jesus and those after him did?

If I am going to take the position that the Bible was addressing male prostitution in pagan temples and did not address the concept of a committed homosexual relationship between two consenting adults, how is that a form of moral relativism?
 
Valke2 said:
As a christian, you adopt a set of beliefs which implicitly acknowledge that some things that were considered a sin before Jesus are no longer a sin. Most of these would be the ritualistic commandments that Jews believe still apply.

I’ve heard arguments that people who want to change what is right or wrong are being moral relativists. How is what they are doing different from what Jesus and those after him did?

If I am going to take the position that the Bible was addressing male prostitution in pagan temples and did not address the concept of a committed homosexual relationship between two consenting adults, how is that a form of moral relativism?
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We understand Jesus came to fulfill the law not abolish it.
 
buffalo said:
That’s all well and good, but does not address the morality of the homosexual act.

That is what I was trying to convey in my example of the guys deciding whether cheating on their wives is OK.

I think interviewing them as a way to determine morality is fatally flawed. What if the interviewees were druggies and lived on the streets. That may well determine your position.
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“Guys deciding to cheat…” That is where we differ…we have embraced the same morality for our gay members as we do for our straight ones. If “cheating” is wrong for straight people, it is wrong for gay people. If spouse abuse is wrong for straight then it is wrong for gay.

In the book “Is the Homosexual My Neighbor”, the authors approach it as using the same ethic. Of course, we will not be able to see past one another as long as “my side” claims homosexuality is not a sin and “your side” claims it is.

IF Homosexuality is not a sin, and I and those who share my beliefs do not believe it is a sin, then the ethics of how we treat those whom we enter into life long commitments should be the same.

We have not “arbitrarily” chosen to disregard scriptural injunctions of behavior…we do not see the cultural injunctions against certain forms of homosexual behavior such as rape, pedastry, temple prostitution as legitimate reasons to deny gay people the right to have supported relationships. Scripture, no matter how we view it, does not address same sex relationsips based on mutual love and respect…it simply decries acts based on violent rape and abuse.
 
Publisher said:
“Guys deciding to cheat…” That is where we differ…we have embraced the same morality for our gay members as we do for our straight ones. If “cheating” is wrong for straight people, it is wrong for gay people. If spouse abuse is wrong for straight then it is wrong for gay.

In the book “Is the Homosexual My Neighbor”, the authors approach it as using the same ethic. Of course, we will not be able to see past one another as long as “my side” claims homosexuality is not a sin and “your side” claims it is.

IF Homosexuality is not a sin, and I and those who share my beliefs do not believe it is a sin, then the ethics of how we treat those whom we enter into life long commitments should be the same.

We have not “arbitrarily” chosen to disregard scriptural injunctions of behavior…we do not see the cultural injunctions against certain forms of homosexual behavior such as rape, pedastry, temple prostitution as legitimate reasons to deny gay people the right to have supported relationships. Scripture, no matter how we view it, does not address same sex relationsips based on mutual love and respect…it simply decries acts based on violent rape and abuse.
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Okay. Then let’s leave out Scripture and religion for a moment.

You said you hold homosexuals to the same standard as married straight couples.

The problem here is that ssm is still illegal in this country (with one exception).

Even from a secular persepective, it is not possible for two same sex people to be married. How can you hold them to the same standard as straights?

Has your denomination completely bypassed secular law?
 
Publisher said:
I have participated in PFLAG and have been part of “Listening Circles” in various religious traditions. In my own Meeting I have sat under the ministry of good Christian people who have provided much insight into their own personal struggles…I have seen and discussed these issue face to face…in my opinion these gay men and women have displayed grace and kindness towards those who would see them as “disordered”. Their friendship and witness has been humbling.
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That’s great but PFLAG is hardly an unbiased source of information about the impact of the homosexual lifestyle. It is an activist organization committed to advancing the cause.

It may be impossible to find a completely unbiased source regarding this issue (which is the case for most issues of sexual morality) so it is even more important to inform oneself of all views, even those with which we disagree.

I am not afraid to research the info and testimony of active homosexuals who wish to promote the lifestyle. In fact, I find it essential reading for forming an effective defense of traditional marriage. Why don’t you consider sitting in on an Encourage meeting for another view?
 
Publisher said:
“Guys deciding to cheat…” That is where we differ…we have embraced the same morality for our gay members as we do for our straight ones. If “cheating” is wrong for straight people, it is wrong for gay people. If spouse abuse is wrong for straight then it is wrong for gay.

In the book “Is the Homosexual My Neighbor”, the authors approach it as using the same ethic. Of course, we will not be able to see past one another as long as “my side” claims homosexuality is not a sin and “your side” claims it is.

IF Homosexuality is not a sin, and I and those who share my beliefs do not believe it is a sin, then the ethics of how we treat those whom we enter into life long commitments should be the same.

We have not “arbitrarily” chosen to disregard scriptural injunctions of behavior…we do not see the cultural injunctions against certain forms of homosexual behavior such as rape, pedastry, temple prostitution as legitimate reasons to deny gay people the right to have supported relationships. Scripture, no matter how we view it, does not address same sex relationsips based on mutual love and respect…it simply decries acts based on violent rape and abuse.
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Living as brother and sister, or brother and brother can be OK. There are different types of love.

Marital love requires a man an woman.

Scripture does show the various forms of love, but it denounces sinful acts.

For more perspective read God is Love
 
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