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Publisher
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Religious beliefs.
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buffalo
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Right on - that is why we have to back to designed intent.
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buffalo
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Show me where design and intent are religious beliefs.
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Publisher
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Seems like we’ve come quite a distance…“even if we had evidence to support that children…”…which we do by the way…I wouldn’t say “perfect” by any stretch of the imagination, but then I don’t know any “perfect” children…other than my own of course
.You said this quite well…it is your “belief that gay marriage is still invalid”…a religious belief…that has no bearing on civil law and should two people of the same sex be able to raise a child in a stable, loving albeit “alternative family” structure other’s religious belief should not be an impediment to them doing so.
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Publisher
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Are you saying you do not have a religious belief that it was not God’s design and intent that a man and woman alone shoud be married and have children but due to original sin and corruption God’s “inent and design” were frustrated? So this isn’t a religious belief?
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buffalo
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Yes indeed we do have this belief.
But remove religion from the debate for one minute and answer the question.
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fix
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No, it is relativism based on the fact they reject absolute truth. Even if they are not absolute relativists they are relative relativists.
Oh, so you are a materialist? You only accept truth that you can touch or measure in a lab?
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fix
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A psychologist cannot prove what is or is not moral through surveys or studies. They can measure parameters and choose subjective endpoints to compare, but that does not determine good or evil.
That is why starting from an erroneous position is so wrong. Claiming homosexual acts are neither good nor bad is an incorrect postion to hold.
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preacherman
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If believe that God said nothing about Homosexuality then read Leviticus 20 : 13
Or if you prefer read Romans 1 : 27
Or if you prefer read Romans 1 : 27
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Publisher
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Intent and design from a purely secular standpoint I agree is difficult for religious people. I too hold religious beliefs. My intent was not to remove religious beliefs from your views, but simply to point out that civil law which approves/disapproves of same sex unions be used and not others religious beliefs.
My religious belief, based also on modern psychological evidence is that same sex unions are not ‘evil’…they do not go against the “natural order”. Yes, they are different…but different isn’t evil.
If two people of the same sex wish to establish an “alternative family” with children in a stable, loving environment, they should be allowed to do so. It does not hurt society in any way shape or form…it does go against manys religious belief, but we should not establish government to enforce religious belief.
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buffalo
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You are dodging the question. From a simple observation of a male and a female what can we conclude design and intent?
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Publisher
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I have not doubt that some homosexual behavior was condemned in scripture, but so was some heterosexula behavior. There is not condemnation at all for loving same sex relationships based on mutual love, respect and compassion. The only way those who hold these religious beliefs which claim “God condemns” homosexuality, is to state that there are no gay relationships based on mutual love, respect and compassion…this however is simply not true.
Homosexual rape is condemned. Homosexual pagan religuous practices such as homosexual temple prostitution is condemned. Men who take young boys to mentor in exchange for sexual favors is condemned.
Mutual, loving, committed adult relationships are not condemned.
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Valke2
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That there is a biological need and ability to procreate. What does this have to do with gays being allowed to marry or God loving homosexuals?
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Publisher
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I don’t believe it has anything to do with it…God loves gay people. Gay people who embrace the same sexual ethic of mutual respect and love between two people should have the same rights and priveleges as straight people.
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Righteousone
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For your information, the Catholic church is the most tolerant of gays out of all religions. My cousin is gay and Baptist people took his boyfriend (only 17 yrs. old), in front of the whole church and said to pray the gayness out of him. He became suicidal after that, but talking to me, a Roman Catholic, I gave him his life back. Poor kid. How dare the Baptists embarrass a child like that.
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Righteousone
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Furthermore, God ALREADY KNOWS what you are to become, before you are even born…any arguements with that???
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Kolbe300
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Booklover and Hasikelee,
I’m hoping that maybe I can offer some (name removed by moderator)ut into this discussion that may help. I am a devout Catholic man who believes in the teachings of the Church. I am also homosexual (ssa, whatever term you prefer). I believe God is calling me, as He calls everyone, to live a chaste life. In my case this would also be a single life, as I believe marriage was meant to be between a man and a woman. I see some terrible misconceptions in a few of your posts that I hope I can help to shed some light on.
Anyways, I just hope that people can come to a clearer understanding, myself included. I hope you all have a wonderful week!
I’m hoping that maybe I can offer some (name removed by moderator)ut into this discussion that may help. I am a devout Catholic man who believes in the teachings of the Church. I am also homosexual (ssa, whatever term you prefer). I believe God is calling me, as He calls everyone, to live a chaste life. In my case this would also be a single life, as I believe marriage was meant to be between a man and a woman. I see some terrible misconceptions in a few of your posts that I hope I can help to shed some light on.
If those children do become neurotic, they will have plenty of company with the children of many heterosexual marriages. I feel that children are by far best off with one father and one mother. What we can’t ignore, however, is that some kids are in fact being raised by same sex couples (whether we like it or not). I believe the best thing we can do is to be supportive of those children. We can do that by acting charitably towards them AND their parents. By assuming those children will become neurotic are we helping the situation at all?
You really cannot make this statement unless you are a homosexual who is incapable of friendship without erotic connotations. This is a blanket statement that is usually not true at all. Those are the kind of blanket statements that do much more damage than good.
Again, how do you know that homosexuality is focused on sexual intercourse? Is heterosexuality focused on intercourse? More often than not, it seems that those who believe homosexuality is only about sex are heterosexuals. As someone who had dealt with a homosexual orientation my entire life, I can tell you for a FACT that it encompasses much, much more than a desire for sex. Probably without even realizing it, a statment like yours above accuses even those who live by the Church’s teachings of being incapable of having healthy friendships with those of the same sex and of being completely focused on sexual intercourse. Both statements are untrue. Many on the board get frustrated when non-Catholics come in and say, “The Church teaches this or that…” when we know it isn’t true. This is the same kind of thing. You make a declaration I know not to be true about something you CAN’T know is true unless you are experiencing it yourself. Does that make sense?
You are right, some people wear their sexuality like a costume. I came to realize how much of a problem this is for people on a different thread. I was asked numerous times why I would identify myself as homosexual if I wansn’t living the lifestyle. People assume that someone who says, “I am homosexual” is practicing the lifestyle. This isn’t always true, so we should be careful. I say this out of respect especially for the very young people who are coming to terms with themselves and who are identifying themselves as gay when they haven’t even come close to living the “gay lifestyle”. When speaking about sexuality, the only way I can answer the question truthfully is to say that I am homosexual. That is my orientation, it is not who I am but I can’t pretend it isn’t there. When I identify myself as homosexual I am NOT identifying myself by my own sin. Being gay is not the sin, we have to remember that. Even someone who leaves the “homosexual lifestyle” more often than not STILL has a homosexual orientation. As much as you are confused by why people identify themselves by their sin, I am confused why people assume sinfulness when someone identifies their sexuality truthfully.
For the young teenager dealing with it, it is frighteningly true. I know this from personal experience!
Anyways, I just hope that people can come to a clearer understanding, myself included. I hope you all have a wonderful week!
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preacherman
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Where does it say that when God first made man that they where called Adam and Steve, I believe it was Adam and Eve. Being Homosexual goes against the very way that God had created the bible also says that a man shall leave his mother and father and cling to his wife not his husband.
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buffalo
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God loves every human all the time. That is not the issue here.
Again, a definition ot terms is in order.
Please explain the what a homosexual is and what a gay is?
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Publisher
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Biologically the “pieces and parts fit”…I have no arguement with that.
Humanity is diverse, human sexuality is complex and diverse…two same sex people can come together in mutual love for one another and form a life long loving bond which may or may not include sexual expression. Relationships is much more than sex…but if sex is the base denominator, then sex between two people of the same gender is possible, but procreation is not…homosexuality is a natural part of human existence…it is natural and occurs across the animal kingdom as a natural occurance…humans fit within this natural order in regard to homosexuality.
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