God loves those who love him?!

[BrethrenBoy]

I was over on Anglican Forums, and in one of the threads an atheist asked one of the other posters if he believed God loved only those who follow him. He replied

“Many are called but few are chosen.” Or if you wish,

“Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.” (Ephesians 5:25-7)

God loves loves everyone hypothetically, but those who accept him effectually. “If one loves God, one is known by him” (1 Corinthians 8:3).

I was a little confused and asked him

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaat! Can you explain your view a bit more? Are you saying that God only really loves Christians? If so, I strongly disagree with you. God loves everyone, and desires that all would be saved. Jesus died for everyone’s sins upon the cross; however, as humans, we have been given free will to accept or reject the sacrifice Christ made for us, but this does not mean God stops loving those who do so.

He replied

Sorry I don’t really have a lot of time to debate this at this time, but in traditional Christianity God saves whom he loves, and loves whom he saves. The two categories are really one. Christ’s death does not apply to those who reject him or don’t believe in His existence or His sacrifice. The sense in which his universal love applies is that every man in the world can qualify for salvation. IF they love God, he acknowledges them. If they are in the Church, they are saved. Outside of the Church there is no salvation. These are standard Christian beliefs.

and later

I don’t think I was very precise in the above. We need to remember that God knows who will be his before the foundations of the world were laid. So as we in the present moment decide whether we will be for him or against him, just so he has already set his heart on those who will be his.

God has offered his love to all men and has offered us the route to glory, via Himself, and so those who take his offer and become part of the Body of Christ, are His.

How should I respond? Is this really standard belief?

 

[Allegra]

I was over on Anglican Forums, and in one of the threads an atheist asked one of the other posters if he believed God loved only those who follow him. He replied

I was a little confused and asked him

He replied
and later

How should I respond? Is this really standard belief?

I think this idea is called “predestination” and it is a common belief of a few Protestant communities. It certainly isn’t a universal belief of all Protestants and it is also rejected by the Catholic Church.

 

[SoMissCatholic]

I was over on Anglican Forums, and in one of the threads an atheist asked one of the other posters if he believed God loved only those who follow him. He replied

I was a little confused and asked him

He replied
and later

How should I respond? Is this really standard belief?

It sounds to me like this person is a believer in the five points of Calvinism, also known by the acronym TULIP: calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

It may be standard belief in Presbyterian and other Reformed communities, but it does not agree with Catholic teaching (it is also rejected by many other protestant communities as well). For example, as you pointed out in your response to him, the Church rejects the notion that Christ only died for the elect (Limited Atonement). Rather, the Church teaches that Christ died for all and has redeemed the entire human race (see the “controversial” homily Pope Francis gave on this subject recently strangenotions.com/atheists-redeemed/).

Whether we accept that redemptive sacrifice and persevere in faith unto salvation, however, is a different question. Which leads to another point on which the Church disagrees with TULIP, namely, Perseverance of the Saints a/k/a “once saved always saved.” The Church has always understood and taught that though one may be baptized (which removes the stain of original sin and bestows the gift of sanctifying grace, resulting in the recipient being “born again” (cf. John 3:5)) and a believer in the faith, his salvation may still be lost through the commission of mortal sin, which destroys the life of grace imparted on him at baptism. Hence the need for the sacrament of reconciliation, in which the believer, through his confession and repentance, is restored to a state of grace by the absolution granted by the priest acting in persona christi.

I hope that helps.

 

[Michael57]

I was over on Anglican Forums, and in one of the threads an atheist asked one of the other posters if he believed God loved only those who follow him. He replied

I was a little confused and asked him

He replied
and later

How should I respond? Is this really standard belief?

“God loves each of us as if there were only one of us (in the Universe) to love.” St. Augustine.

 

[SoMissCatholic]

It sounds to me like this person is a believer in the five points of Calvinism, also known by the acronym TULIP: calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

It may be standard belief in Presbyterian and other Reformed communities, but it does not agree with Catholic teaching (it is also rejected by many other protestant communities as well). For example, as you pointed out in your response to him, the Church rejects the notion that Christ only died for the elect (Limited Atonement). Rather, the Church teaches that Christ died for all and has redeemed the entire human race (see the “controversial” homily Pope Francis gave on this subject recently strangenotions.com/atheists-redeemed/).

Whether we accept that redemptive sacrifice and persevere in faith unto salvation, however, is a different question. Which leads to another point on which the Church disagrees with TULIP, namely, Perseverance of the Saints a/k/a “once saved always saved.” The Church has always understood and taught that though one may be baptized (which removes the stain of original sin and bestows the gift of sanctifying grace, resulting in the recipient being “born again” (cf. John 3:5)) and a believer in the faith, his salvation may still be lost through the commission of mortal sin, which destroys the life of grace imparted on him at baptism. Hence the need for the sacrament of reconciliation, in which the believer, through his confession and repentance, is restored to a state of grace by the absolution granted by the priest acting in persona christi.

I hope that helps.

Forgot to add:

He may claim that what he believes is “traditional Christianity” and “standard belief,” but in reality the beliefs you expressed in your response to him reflect the understanding held by all Christians for the first 1500 years of Christianity before the reformation. I don’t think you can get much more “traditional” or “standard” than that.

 

[eggsbenedictine]

I was over on Anglican Forums, and in one of the threads an atheist asked one of the other posters if he believed God loved only those who follow him. He replied

I was a little confused and asked him

He replied
and later

How should I respond? Is this really standard belief?

This is a Calvinist doctrine.

 

[steve_b]

I was over on Anglican Forums, and in one of the threads an atheist asked one of the other posters if he believed God loved only those who follow him. He replied

I was a little confused and asked him

He replied
and later

How should I respond? Is this really standard belief?

This is one of those oft misquoted passages. It’s not that nothing can seperate us from God, it’s that nothing can seperate us from the love of God.

Romans 8:38-39

people “say” they love God. Here’s how Jesus defines love for Him John 14:15 , John 14:23-24

Therefore, without being obedient to what Our Lord wants from us, we can say we love God, but it’s just a said love. Much like what James said about faith. Faith without works is a said faith, a dead faith. Much like love without obedience to Our Lord is just a said love on our part.

God otoh loves us no matter what. That doesn’t mean we won’t be seperated from Him if we sin grievously and remain that way till death.

 

[TRH1292]

As this happened on an Anglican Forum, It is clear the poster was a Calvinist.

Calvinism teaches people have no free will, God only wishes to save a certain small group, and only died for that group. Furthermore, they say this group can never fall from a state of grace.

This is a great and serious heresy and is not at all the teaching of the Catholic Faith, the only Church of Christ.

The Church teaches that God loves all human beings, and that he sent Jesus to die for us all because he wants all of us to be saved. All of us have a free will to choose God, and the only ones who land in Hell are those that choose it by a stubborn refusal of God.

 

[fhansen]

:bigyikes::bigyikes: WARNING: false gospel, WARNING: false gospel, WARNING: false gospel… :nope::nope:

 

[MarcoPolo]

Christ’s death does not apply to those who reject him or don’t believe in His existence or His sacrifice. The sense in which his universal love applies is that every man in the world can qualify for salvation. IF they love God, he acknowledges them. If they are in the Church, they are saved. Outside of the Church there is no salvation. These are standard Christian beliefs.

Indeed, as others said, this atheist is mistaken. These are not standard Christian beliefs. They represent the idea of limited atonement common in Calvinist tradition. Catholic teaching says that Christ’s sacrifice is universally redemptive for all:*CCC#432 The name “Jesus” signifies that the very name of God is present in the person of his Son, made man for the universal and definitive redemption from sins. It is the divine name that alone brings salvation, and henceforth all can invoke his name, for Jesus united himself to all men through his Incarnation, so that "there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.*God so loved the “world” and all that… (John 3:16) That’s not the same thing as saying everyone will universally be saved, but the atheist has his terms crossed, perhaps. Christ’s sacrifice may not be finally appropriated to those who reject him, but that is different than saying his redemptive work was only for some. The limitation and refusal are imposed by the individual, not God.

I think the atheist may also be under a mistaken impression that if God grants someone the free will to reject Him and end up in hell, that that means God doesn’t love the person, which is not correct.