God, moral good and free will

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However, isn’t there an argument that God could have prevented sin and, better still, hell, by setting us up so that we understand good and bad more fully and are compelled by these feelings? Adam and Eve did not feel compelled by good over bad.
The knowledge of how bad something is will not keep someone from doing it; case in point Lucifer and the angels that fell from Heaven. They had full knowledge of their sin before they committed it and yet they still sinned. Why? Well it’s because the test they had was a test of Love. Why love? Well it’s because love is a product of the Will not the intellect. The amount of knowledge a person has of whether something is good or bad doesn’t matter when it comes to testing how true their love is. If someone truly loves another, they will stay away from whatever it is regardless of the knowledge they have for the sake of that love. A person who truly loves another person would never risk their love for any selfish motives.

In short the test God gave Adam and Eve was a perfect test, free of any error or mistake and nothing would have benefited them by doing it any other way. Heck if God gave them full knowledge then Adam and Eve would have gone straight to Hell like the Angels since Hell was created for the devil and his angels because they chose sin with full knowledge of how bad it was; in such beings is ZERO love.

God is good.
 
Bobber90:

“Not acting reasonably may well be another fault inherent in our creation, or it may be one that is possible to overcome, given appropriate direction. However, sufficient and appropriate direction has not been given.”

I do not think this is the view of the Church with respect to natural law. The natural law, I think, is something the Church holds can be known by all by the light of natural reason such that one might even go so far as to say the natural law is written on the hearts of men. This would seem to me to be in direct conlfict with your claim that ‘sufficient and appropriate direction has not been given.’

You identify as an agnostic, which might help to explain the issue here. What is your reason for saying that sufficient direction has not been given?
 
It does because a person is capable of self-determination…
‘Self-determination’ is not the end of things, but the start. I would take self-determination to mean the ability to choose based on the ability to understand. There is a strand of Christian thought (Irenaean) which goes that the ability to reject God requires partial ignorance of God’s nature - epistemic distance - because anyone who truly beheld God would instantly submit to His glory and goodness. Therefore, to escape the problem of evil by this method is to admit that God could have saved everyone by simply giving them full understanding, but that would have been no test of character. A test of character entails and explains the existence of sin. My argument would be that this is not defensible when the costs of failure at epistemic distance are eternal suffering, making God not omnibenevolent. The whole set up of a test of character is not in humanity’s interest, but that of God’s vanity.
 
The knowledge of how bad something is will not keep someone from doing it; case in point Lucifer and the angels that fell from Heaven. They had full knowledge of their sin before they committed it and yet they still sinned.
It makes more sense that they didn’t have full knowledge, and that is not a controversial point of theology, if you see the above post quoting president of Notre Dame Institute discussing Aquinas’s views.
Why? Well it’s because the test they had was a test of Love. Why love? Well it’s because love is a product of the Will not the intellect.
Obedience is a test of the will, love is not willed but drawn out of a person and grown. Do children/parents/brothers/friends/partners will themselves to love each other? I don’t believe that will is the bedrock of these relationships.
The amount of knowledge a person has of whether something is good or bad doesn’t matter when it comes to testing how true their love is. If someone truly loves another, they will stay away from whatever it is regardless of the knowledge they have for the sake of that love. A person who truly loves another person would never risk their love for any selfish motives.
If you were in the presence of God in heaven and had full knowledge of Him, do you suppose that it would have no effect on your love for Him? Could you reject Him just as easily as people can now?
In short the test God gave Adam and Eve was a perfect test, free of any error or mistake and nothing would have benefited them by doing it any other way. Heck if God gave them full knowledge then Adam and Eve would have gone straight to Hell like the Angels since Hell was created for the devil and his angels because they chose sin with full knowledge of how bad it was; in such beings is ZERO love.
God gave Adam and Eve a test alright, but it was not a just or a justifiable test in light of the fact that it consisted of a manufactured epistemic distance and massively disproportionate punishment. Epistemic distance means we cannot know the true nature of God, His love, or goodness. So why judge someone under homemade illusory circumstances? Why not judge them in terms of what they believe about your true nature, with genuine understanding?
 
Bobber90:

“Not acting reasonably may well be another fault inherent in our creation, or it may be one that is possible to overcome, given appropriate direction. However, sufficient and appropriate direction has not been given.”

I do not think this is the view of the Church with respect to natural law. The natural law, I think, is something the Church holds can be known by all by the light of natural reason such that one might even go so far as to say the natural law is written on the hearts of men. This would seem to me to be in direct conlfict with your claim that ‘sufficient and appropriate direction has not been given.’

You identify as an agnostic, which might help to explain the issue here. What is your reason for saying that sufficient direction has not been given?
I was considering how it is possible for a being to decide that its interests lay outside of obedience to God. Obedience to God is the decision to go with all that is good, holy and glorious, so how would a being think it was better to choose something else? Hence the suggestion that humans have an inherent fault such that they don’t understand good, or do not reason to find it.

If natural law is indeed sufficient to guide any individual to God, it does not mean that it is necessarily evident enough to guide everyone to God all the time. Having stumbled across Irenaean theology, I’ve found this more carefully explained. The argument is that we are not supposed to know God fully in this life, because that is the only way we’ll be able to choose to reject God, and the ability to reject God makes the choice to submit more special. Humanity is set up to remain at an epistemic distance from God, as this is the only way to make rebellion plausible. As such, natural law cannot be offered as an example of humanity’s full knowledge of God.

Why should that matter? It matters in my mind that, basically, God’s creatures are being tested unfairly, under conditions designed to tempt them into eternal damnation. There are alternatives, such as a potentially infinite purgatory instead of hell, or the provision of true knowledge in close company instead of a distanced relationship on earth. Why would it be insufficient to love God based on an unchanging true vision of Him, and better to reject an illusory alternative? Because we know it is that - an illusion - which is no sacrifice to ignore.
 
But do you think that parents who “create” children with free will on the one hand and deny them the right to use that free will (to make choices) on the other hand are showing their children love?
(1.) We can have free will and sufficient intellect such that we can love and always freely choose the good.

Or (2.) Free will is a big moral good that enables love by requiring the performance of (hopefully only small) evil deeds. But then do we have free will in heaven?
Although God has instilled within each individual the ability to choose doing evil, that is not to say that the individual must choose to do evil, since each individual also has the freedom to choose doing good.
But you seem to argue that freedom is only freedom if we actually sin. I would be happy with the potential to sin, but never the motive, due to possessing true and full knowledge of God.
If God had created human beings with the power not only to choose between doing either good or evil, but also to “always voluntarily choose the good,” then God’s created beings would not be humans at all: they would be gods instead. But since by definition God is the only being in existence that is uncaused, God’s causing other gods into existence is illogical.
I don’t think they have to be gods because all that is needed is accurate understanding of God, which is gained in heaven anyway. If that is considered an inhuman characteristic, then it is arguable that we should not have been made human and suffering, but inhuman and pure. Why wouldn’t an all-powerful, benevolent god create powerful, intelligent and good beings?
 
If I understand you, it is true that Adam and Eve could have been fully holy and yet still make a free will sin, because of the nature of the free will they had. The second point justifies the present state of affairs with the importance of free will.
Your understanding of my point is correct.
However, the way to meet this objection is clearly to say that yes free will is centrally important, but no it doesn’t entail sin.
This is technically correct, but it does not meet the defense. While I concede that free will does not necessarily mean any given agent will choose sin, it is logically possible that all free agents will choose to sin at least once. In fact, the Gospels contain dramatic language (in my opinion, hyperbole) that all men are sinners.
You argue implicitly that it is too much of a cost to lose free will, and seem to believe that free will is an objective moral good. If that is so, does freedom exist in heaven, are people in heaven free to sin? How could heaven not include this vital organising moral good, if it is the objective best state of affairs.
There are relatively few dogmatic teachings of the Church relating to heaven. Much of what can be said about heaven is from the field of speculative theology. There are different theories about free choice in the state called heaven. The one to which you refer above from Fr. Saunders suggests that free choices can still be made in heaven. If this is correct then people are free to sin, but they won’t - and not because they are forced by God. If the concept of heaven is to have any meaning, it is that God has been fully and finally (and freely) chosen by us as the ultimate good. Otherwise souls would not find themselves in heaven. This is consistent with your observation above that free will does not entail sin. Those in heaven have freely chosen not to sin.
I reckon heaven would include the combination of perfect free will and perfect understanding of God. The two would not be mutually exclusive, nor coercive, and everyone would freely live in love. Given that this is so tautologically and self-evidently the best state of affairs, why didn’t God institute it for everyone, for all time?
You are confusing cause and effect. Souls are in heaven precisely because they freely chose to accept God eternally, not because heaven somehow “forces” them to act rightly. The reason why all souls are not in heaven from the outset is because they apparently haven’t freely chosen God.
 
Do children/parents/brothers/friends/partners will
themselves to love each other? I don’t believe that will is the bedrock of these relationships.

Yes they will themselves to love each other. Love is not forced it is something that people chose to do. This is why people can chose to still love someone despite their faults and shortcomings. The only time the knowledge of a person could affect your love for them is if you let it.
If you were in the presence of God in heaven and had full knowledge of Him, do you suppose that it would have no effect
on your love for Him? Could you reject Him just as easily as people can now?

Heaven is where the accomplishment of our choices are realized, it can never be associated with were choices begin. God is Love itself and Love can never be forced on another being. Whether or not the other being accepts it is up to them: however, we could never say we truly love God if we were never given a way to deny Him. Heaven is place for the souls who have freely chosen to be transformed into the very likeness of God; it is where the two become ONE in perfect union. If our test was in Heaven it wouldn’t have been a test at all because we would have already had the reward that comes from making the right choice before we even made it thus contradicting the very purpose of our free will.
God gave Adam and Eve a test alright, but it was not a just or a justifiable test in light of the fact that it consisted of a manufactured epistemic distance and massively disproportionate punishment. Epistemic distance means we cannot know the true nature of God, His love, or goodness. So why judge someone under homemade illusory circumstances? Why not judge them in terms of what they believe about your true nature, with genuine understanding?
First off that is your opinion not fact. In my Faith we believe God’s test and punishment were just and perfect and that He did not give them a test that they could not pass. The thing people tend to miss is we are called to have a relationship with God and relationships are built on cooperation. You may say the test wasn’t fair but I can argue that Adam and Eve didn’t use all of their resources to pass said test. They never called on God for help, they never questioned the serpent, and they never did anything to fight the temptation. They failed because they were selfish pure and simple. If anything God was more than lenient in regards to their punishment.
 
This is technically correct, but it does not meet the defense. While I concede that free will does not necessarily mean any given agent will choose sin, it is logically possible that all free agents will choose to sin at least once. In fact, the Gospels contain dramatic language (in my opinion, hyperbole) that all men are sinners.

There are relatively few dogmatic teachings of the Church relating to heaven. Much of what can be said about heaven is from the field of speculative theology. There are different theories about free choice in the state called heaven. The one to which you refer above from Fr. Saunders suggests that free choices can still be made in heaven. If this is correct then people are free to sin, but they won’t - and not because they are forced by God. If the concept of heaven is to have any meaning, it is that God has been fully and finally (and freely) chosen by us as the ultimate good. Otherwise souls would not find themselves in heaven. This is consistent with your observation above that free will does not entail sin. Those in heaven have freely chosen not to sin.

You are confusing cause and effect. Souls are in heaven precisely because they freely chose to accept God eternally, not because heaven somehow “forces” them to act rightly. The reason why all souls are not in heaven from the outset is because they apparently haven’t freely chosen God.
I’m not sure that it is behaviour on earth per se that is the cause of behaviour in heaven. The theory of Fr. Saunders goes that if anyone who is not intrinsically evil or totally ignorant were placed in direct contact with God (e.g. as in heaven), they would understand the nature of goodness and holiness, with the consequence of total obedience. However, if you believe heaven is what only sufficiently good people feel when close to God, that contradicts the theory. It may then be thought that heaven is offered as a result of good behaviour on earth, so that good behaviour causes one to arrive in heaven, but obviously that is different from saying that heaven is how anyone would behave in the direct presence of God.

I think that in both cases, everyone must go to heaven in order for God to be considered benevolent.
  1. In the former scenario where heaven is merely access to God that anyone would find ultimately good, that would entail that significant barriers are erected between human perception while on earth, and the divine. By this model, give the humans too much of a scent of the divine, and they will come running, soon enough getting full access and giving total surrender. Give the humans no trace whatsoever of divinity, and they will universally fail to notice goodness, and obviously never get access and live in communion. So far, I would say it was obvious that the people in this scenario are not morally responsible for their behaviour, because what else would you expect of intrinsically good people (as humans are supposed to be) in either the first or the second situation? Could a good person find God when God is totally hidden? Could a good person reject God when His glorious presence is so obvious? No, I don’t think so. It is clearly the case that God is turning the dials and increasing the divine brightness and contrast. Too much one way or too much the other produces failure. What is needed is a sweet spot where God is not responsible for people’s actions.
But say there is only one force in the moral universe, which is the degree of presence/absence of divinity, or the degree of perception of divinity. There is only goodness, it’s just a question of how much. Isn’t it the case that any measure of divine goodness would be sufficient to direct all such people inexorably towards God? Either God is even slightly visible, and everyone goes to heaven, or God is invisible and no-one does. To cut a laborious story short, isn’t God (in this scenario) always responsible for human conduct, whether He arranges the existence of sin through the provision of illusory good (pride, selfishness), or by partially corrupting humanity? That same questioning applies equally to whatever the first being was which rejected God.
  1. In the second scenario, heaven is the feeling which only the good people get when they experience God in the closest possible proximity, and that is why they naturally and voluntarily obey. I think this would mean that goodness is only felt to be desirable and worth sacrificing oneself for by people already performing good actions. The desirability of every new option confronting us (including seeing God face-to-face) depends on the moral value of all the previous choices we made. That seems fine when we look at the death-end of life - it is natural for good people to want the company of God, and perhaps plausible for the proud individuals to prefer isolation, in a twisted way. However, it gives us no better understanding of Original Sin. Surely it is just as impossible to set up a sweet spot in this scenario as it was before.
Adam and Eve must have been fresh and complete blank slates at some point. Their moral credit rating was absolutely neutral, and their perception of the value of good and bad behaviour would have been equally weighted, save for any other imposed variables. How could they have knowingly chosen bad, if the impulses on either side of the moral scales were at zero, and their natures were intrinsically good (in the image of God)? Here it seems that God is also responsible for their actions.

Basically, in a knowledge-based account of how we operate our free will, it seems that sin is done out of misunderstanding, and God is responsible for the degree of understanding humanity possesses. As such, I think it is the definition of being benevolent for a god to inculcate only decent understanding, and that the existence of sin and hell contradicts this.
 
‘Self-determination’ is not the end of things, but the start. I would take self-determination to mean the ability to choose based on the ability to understand. There is a strand of Christian thought (Irenaean) which goes that the ability to reject God requires partial ignorance of God’s nature - epistemic distance - because anyone who truly beheld God would instantly submit to His glory and goodness. Therefore, to escape the problem of evil by this method is to admit that God could have saved everyone by simply giving them full understanding, but that would have been no test of character. A test of character entails and explains the existence of sin. My argument would be that this is not defensible when the costs of failure at epistemic distance are eternal suffering, making God not omnibenevolent. The whole set up of a test of character is not in humanity’s interest, but that of God’s vanity.
The flaw in your argument is that the gift of free will is not an arbitrary test of character but the basis of the capacity for love.

It is human vanity to think reality conforms to your specifications!
 
Basically, in a knowledge-based account of how we operate our free will, it seems that sin is done out of misunderstanding, and God is responsible for the degree of understanding humanity possesses. As such, I think it is the definition of being benevolent for a god to inculcate only decent understanding, and that the existence of sin and hell contradicts this.
All sin is due to misunderstanding but it is **culpable **because sinners are aware that sin causes unnecessary suffering.
 
All sin is due to misunderstanding but it is **culpable **because sinners are aware that sin causes unnecessary suffering.
In a knowledge-based view of sin, sinners are not aware enough that a behaviour is sinful, else they wouldn’t do it.

Fr. Saunders implies a knowledge-based account of sin by saying that there is free will in heaven, where the immediacy of God stimulates voluntary obedience. If one were to take knowledge to be relevant in behaving well, for consistency’s sake, one would have to take knowledge to be relevant in behaving badly. It is down to you to find a way to disagree with Fr Saunders, or to bolt on something mystical or extrinsic to knowledge so as to explain sin.
 
The flaw in your argument is that the gift of free will is not an arbitrary test of character but the basis of the capacity for love.

It is human vanity to think reality conforms to your specifications!
It is a test of character whose criterion of success is love. Yet love does not require the actual enactment of rejection to exist, therefore the test is unnecessarily mean where it condemns those who actually do reject God to hell. Love did not necessitate the construction of epistemic distance in the first place.
 
I’m not sure that it is behaviour on earth per se that is the cause of behaviour in heaven. The theory of Fr. Saunders goes that if anyone who is not intrinsically evil or totally ignorant were placed in direct contact with God (e.g. as in heaven), they would understand the nature of goodness and holiness, with the consequence of total obedience. However, if you believe heaven is what only sufficiently good people feel when close to God, that contradicts the theory. It may then be thought that heaven is offered as a result of good behaviour on earth, so that good behaviour causes one to arrive in heaven, but obviously that is different from saying that heaven is how anyone would behave in the direct presence of God.
I read Fr. Saunder’s entire article. I think you are imposing your own words on his response. He does not say anywhere that if a person was in the immediate presence of God he would as a result choose not to sin. Even with respect to the angels he does not say that they cannot sin solely due to witnessing the beatific vision.
I think that in both cases, everyone must go to heaven in order for God to be considered benevolent.
Perhaps everyone does go to heaven.
Basically, in a knowledge-based account of how we operate our free will, it seems that sin is done out of misunderstanding, and God is responsible for the degree of understanding humanity possesses. As such, I think it is the definition of being benevolent for a god to inculcate only decent understanding, and that the existence of sin and hell contradicts this.
This is clearly not correct. Our experience tells us that relative intelligence does not correlate with moral action. Low I.Q. does not tell us how morally a person might act.

Your overriding thesis seems to be that God could have created every person such that they must choose to go to heaven. But that is antithetical to free will. Even so, it may be that every person does eventually freely choose heaven. Your objections on these points seem very weak.
 
I read Fr. Saunder’s entire article. I think you are imposing your own words on his response. He does not say anywhere that if a person was in the immediate presence of God he would as a result choose not to sin. Even with respect to the angels he does not say that they cannot sin solely due to witnessing the beatific vision.
I think that is actually what he means when he goes into detail, especially when mentioning Aquinas. Granted, he does first say this:

‘Having chosen to live for the Lord, we look forward to the time when we will share eternal happiness of Heaven’

-Which easily fits the idea that heaven is purely what good people experience when in the presence of God, and not everyone’s reaction. However, when dealing with the angels, he elaborates:

‘if these angels were in heaven, why would they rebel against God? Both Ignatius of Antioch (d. 110) and Clement of Alexandria (d. 211) speculated that at the beginning, the angels did not possess the full beatitude of heaven. Instead, they underwent a period of trial’ and 'St. Thomas further posited that the “beatified angels” (the good angels in heaven) cannot sin “because their beatitude consists in seeing God through His essence,… the very essence of goodness” ’

Implicit in that is the idea that anything witnessing the full beatitude of God would not freely choose to reject it. He refers to the idea of a trial, which is taken up in theology by Saint Irenaeus. Irenaeus thought that life was a developmental process in which people were to make themselves into the likeness of God by learning from suffering in a difficult world of good and sin. Free will was set in a context of epistemic distance such that people could choose to ignore or reject God without the conclusion that this was wrong being overwhelmingly evident. I admit that Neither Saunders nor Irenaeus use the term ‘epistemic distance’ in the short amount I’ve read of each, but the term was used by John Hick, who studied Irenaeus’s thought. Therefore, this view is not uncommon among apologists, even if it is not developed extensively by Fr Saunders.
Perhaps everyone does go to heaven.
Then problem solved!
This is clearly not correct. Our experience tells us that relative intelligence does not correlate with moral action. Low I.Q. does not tell us how morally a person might act.
Well, in a knowledge-based account of free will decisions, it is tautologically correct. If we accept the view that the rejection of God is made possible by epistemic distance, it is entailed that sin happens because of a lack of knowledge. Epistemic distance is not a mere frivolity, but a solution to the problem of evil, though obviously you may well disagree with it.
Your overriding thesis seems to be that God could have created every person such that they must choose to go to heaven. But that is antithetical to free will. Even so, it may be that every person does eventually freely choose heaven. Your objections on these points seem very weak.
Well if it is already theologically sound that everyone would obey God who knew Him directly, all I am doing is saying that beatitude, free will and love can exist in such a scenario where no-one rebels. God could have created nothing but heaven, given that love only requires understanding. I don’t think that meaningful free will is unconditional or antithetical to perfect knowledge, but rather something like this: “I can reject God if I wish, but only for good reason. There is no good reason, so I will not reject God.” Free will is made no better by the act of rebellion, because it operates within the same epistemic logic. It is not better to be able to irrationally reject God under a veil of ignorance than it is to always accept God in knowledge.
 
I think that is actually what he means when he goes into detail, especially when mentioning Aquinas. Granted, he does first say this:

‘Having chosen to live for the Lord, we look forward to the time when we will share eternal happiness of Heaven’

-Which easily fits the idea that heaven is purely what good people experience when in the presence of God, and not everyone’s reaction. However, when dealing with the angels, he elaborates:

‘if these angels were in heaven, why would they rebel against God? Both Ignatius of Antioch (d. 110) and Clement of Alexandria (d. 211) speculated that at the beginning, the angels did not possess the full beatitude of heaven. Instead, they underwent a period of trial’ and 'St. Thomas further posited that the “beatified angels” (the good angels in heaven) cannot sin “because their beatitude consists in seeing God through His essence,… the very essence of goodness” ’

Implicit in that is the idea that anything witnessing the full beatitude of God would not freely choose to reject it. He refers to the idea of a trial, which is taken up in theology by Saint Irenaeus. Irenaeus thought that life was a developmental process in which people were to make themselves into the likeness of God by learning from suffering in a difficult world of good and sin. Free will was set in a context of epistemic distance such that people could choose to ignore or reject God without the conclusion that this was wrong being overwhelmingly evident. I admit that Neither Saunders nor Irenaeus use the term ‘epistemic distance’ in the short amount I’ve read of each, but the term was used by John Hick, who studied Irenaeus’s thought. Therefore, this view is not uncommon among apologists, even if it is not developed extensively by Fr Saunders.

Then problem solved!

Well, in a knowledge-based account of free will decisions, it is tautologically correct. If we accept the view that the rejection of God is made possible by epistemic distance, it is entailed that sin happens because of a lack of knowledge. Epistemic distance is not a mere frivolity, but a solution to the problem of evil, though obviously you may well disagree with it.

Well if it is already theologically sound that everyone would obey God who knew Him directly, all I am doing is saying that beatitude, free will and love can exist in such a scenario where no-one rebels. God could have created nothing but heaven, given that love only requires understanding. I don’t think that meaningful free will is unconditional or antithetical to perfect knowledge, but rather something like this: “I can reject God if I wish, but only for good reason. There is no good reason, so I will not reject God.” Free will is made no better by the act of rebellion, because it operates within the same epistemic logic. It is not better to be able to irrationally reject God under a veil of ignorance than it is to always accept God in knowledge.
What you describe in the bolded above is in a fact a reality. The problem for us now is that this condition does not exist, and I would submit, cannot exist, on earth.

Heaven is where the is no rebelion while simultaneously having the presence of beatitude and love.
 
Does anyone know of any counter-argument to this?

God could have given people free will and a morally perfect nature (such as Mary’s), so that they can choose to do good or bad but always choose the good. Seeing as God has not, He has set it up that some people will sin and presumably also go to hell. Having created this tendency to induce eternal suffering, God is not good.
lookiing forward to this conversation
 
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