GOD of LOVE

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FightingFat

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Dear brothers and sisters in Christ

I hope this is the right forum for this thread, I couldn’t really come to a conclusion about where to put it.

I wanted to start a discussion about what we as a Church- a people- a community; of God, have learned about the nature of God to this point in history.

As an English Catholic, born of Irish stock, I was brought up by nuns and priests in the firmly avowed knowledge that God is Love. Still, now, the teachings of our Holy Father seem to be clear about that idea. My own Parish community would assert this as truth.

As a man, I have lived my life under the assumption that the God of love, the King of peace would want me to temper my behaviour to these simple and obvious rules. Love the Lord thy God and love thy neighbour.

My experiences recently on this forum have left my mind in all kinds of confusion and led me to questions lots of my feelings about the nature of my loving God.

I have started wondering about the violence and war that God seems to condone in the OT. The God of love who commands us not to murder, yet when Moses returns from receiving the commandments, the first thing that happens is a load of people are put to the sword. The first born of Israel are slain. And, as has been quoted to me here numerous times, Jesus came to bring the sword (Matthew 10:34).

What are your thoughts on these things and how do they relate to your faith?
 
I doubt that there are many Christians who have not wondered how God could do all that smiting in the OT. Stamping out not just the sinner but his whole family… killing all the people, men, women, and children, plus all of their animals, and burning their towns and cities to the ground…

It certainly does seem like God, in the OT, is not a God of love.

I get a little help from Gen 18:22-33. There must have been fewer than 10 righteous men in Sodom - perhaps the same is true of the groups that were smited.

Other than that, I just have to trust God. So I file it under 1 Cor 13:12, which says “For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood. 13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.”

Gen 18:22-33 (RSV):

22 So the men turned from there, and went toward Sodom; but Abraham still stood before the LORD. 23 Then Abraham drew near, and said, “Wilt thou indeed destroy the righteous with the wicked? 24 Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; wilt thou then destroy the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous who are in it? 25 Far be it from thee to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from thee! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?” 26 And the LORD said, “If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will spare the whole place for their sake.” 27 Abraham answered, “Behold, I have taken upon myself to speak to the Lord, I who am but dust and ashes. 28 Suppose five of the fifty righteous are lacking? Wilt thou destroy the whole city for lack of five?” And he said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.” 29 Again he spoke to him, and said, “Suppose forty are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of forty I will not do it.” 30 Then he said, “Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak. Suppose thirty are found there.” He answered, “I will not do it, if I find thirty there.” 31 He said, “Behold, I have taken upon myself to speak to the Lord. Suppose twenty are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of twenty I will not destroy it.” 32 Then he said, “Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak again but this once. Suppose ten are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of ten I will not destroy it.” 33 And the LORD went his way, when he had finished speaking to Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place.
 
Thank you Ruthie (my little girl is Ruthie too 🙂 )
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Ruthie:
Other than that, I just have to trust God. So I file it under 1 Cor 13:12, which says “For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood. 13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.”
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This is pretty much the conclusion I have come too’

Gen 18:22-33 (RSV):

Ruthie said:
22
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So the men turned from there, and went toward Sodom; but Abraham still stood before the LORD. 23 Then Abraham drew near, and said, “Wilt thou indeed destroy the righteous with the wicked? 24 Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; wilt thou then destroy the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous who are in it? 25 Far be it from thee to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from thee! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?” 26 And the LORD said, “If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will spare the whole place for their sake.” 27 Abraham answered, “Behold, I have taken upon myself to speak to the Lord, I who am but dust and ashes. 28 Suppose five of the fifty righteous are lacking? Wilt thou destroy the whole city for lack of five?” And he said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.” 29 Again he spoke to him, and said, “Suppose forty are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of forty I will not do it.” 30 Then he said, “Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak. Suppose thirty are found there.” He answered, “I will not do it, if I find thirty there.” 31 He said, “Behold, I have taken upon myself to speak to the Lord. Suppose twenty are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of twenty I will not destroy it.” 32 Then he said, “Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak again but this once. Suppose ten are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of ten I will not destroy it.” 33 And the LORD went his way, when he had finished speaking to Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place.

This passage, with Abraham arguing with God I just find even more confusing!!

Do you think God is Love?
 
It is precisely because God loves us that He purifies, chastises and teaches us. God was and is angry at the insults wielded against Him and the sinfulness of man. God was and is hurt that man chose to attempt to live without Him. However His justice is tempered by His mercy and He is just and merciful because He is Love.

God has sent many prophets because He loves us to show us the way and few listened and on some occasions none listened to them. Finally He sends His own Son and still people are not listening relying on human wisdom (whatever that is!) and not turning to the infinite wisdom of our Lord. It is precisely this human wisdom that sees trials as punishment, rather than as Divine wisdom tells us, trials are a Blessing.

God’s justice cannot be deffered forever, it is purely His mercy that we even exist and possess life by His generosity and as all life proceeds from Him He has the right to take life away.

God would be neither just, loving or merciful if He did not send us trials to teach us His law so that it, He and each other may be loved in our hearts and lived out in our lives as living prayer. Every good parent teaches their children how to behave and live their lives, if we who are nothing and are evil do this for our own children, what more will God do for all who are His own.

It is not God who is unloving, it is man with the hardened heart that is unloving and all that God does is because He loves us.
 
But when we use his justice to condone our violence, is that ok?
 
Further to my above post, we must also remember that our earthly life does not end a second before God ordains it however that end of life may come, whether naturally, through tragdey or another human takes that life because God knows the beginning and end of things before they even come into being and still He generously gifts life. The soul cannot be parted from the body unless God calls that soul to Himself for their judgement.

We must also remember that on earth we are in exile and open to all evil as well as good. This earthly life is not our home, it once was when heaven and earth were united before the fall. However since the fall heaven and earth were seperated by our sin and it is only since the life, death and ressurection of our Lord Jesus Christ that the Kingdo of heaven is being re-established on earth with fulfillment in the after-life.

We must bear with all trials on this earth and know that whilst God does not co-operate with evil He allows us to be tried by it so that our faith may be cast in gold. That is, our faith is nothing unless it withstands and endures trial. God always brings good out of evil.

Ultimately it is ourselves who create our eternal resting place. We make the choice between evil and good and if we have decided for God then nothing can be against us or harm us, that is our souls, because His mercy extends to those who do not forsake Him.

To say that God is not love is to deny His very existance because where does good proceed from if He is not love?
 
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FightingFat:
But when we use his justice to condone our violence, is that ok?
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Men will use the name of God to commit terrible sins. This must always be condemned. It is not for man to wage war and violence in the name of God, but it is only the Divine that can seek justice by taking life in His own name

I think I read somewhere recently where our Pontiff condemned the act of violence and war using the name of God. Our late Pontiff has apologised for the wars and crusades that Catholics have fought out in the name of God in the past.

It has been stated by the Church that there is such a thing as a just war, but this must not be fought in the name of God, but as a matter of justice. Just as a man may defend his wife from an intruder intending to rape and kill her, so peoples of nations have the right to defend their freedom.
 
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puzzleannie:
why not start with Pope Benedict’s first encyclical with this title?
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html
surely this will be a better starting point than our own opinions
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Thanks Annie, to be honest it’s one of the things that lead me to post this thread (the encyclical).

The message from the Holy father (and John Paul II) seems crystal clear to me. I haven’t really had any problem until I started posting here. The way so many posters here seem to have no problem with war and capital punishment has started really making me wonder.
 
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blessedstar:
Men will use the name of God to commit terrible sins. This must always be condemned. It is not for man to wage war and violence in the name of God, but it is only the Divine that can seek justice by taking life in His own name

I think I read somewhere recently where our Pontiff condemned the act of violence and war using the name of God. Our late Pontiff has apologised for the wars and crusades that Catholics have fought out in the name of God in the past.

It has been stated by the Church that there is such a thing as a just war, but this must not be fought in the name of God, but as a matter of justice. Just as a man may defend his wife from an intruder intending to rape and kill her, so peoples of nations have the right to defend their freedom.
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Fabulous. We are of one mind. Thankyou.
 
Deus Caritas est:
In a world where the name of God is sometimes associated with vengeance or even a duty of hatred and violence, this message is both timely and significant. For this reason, I wish in my first Encyclical to speak of the love which God lavishes upon us and which we in turn must share with others.
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Fighting Fat
My Children think I am cruel and mean when I punish them…sometimes by physical means. I do not do it because I hate them or don’t love them…I do it BECAUSE I love them. My kids are teens now and are able to reason things out, so now when they don’t like my answers they say I don’t love them. My answer is always the same: It is because I love you that I do this, God blessed me with you and he gave me responsibility to raise you in the faith. I would be sinning against God if I gave in to your every whim and permitted you to do or have things that don’t lead you in his light. You are still learning, and perhaps you will learn even more than I have, but at this moment I believe that if I give into you on this issue, I am not fulfilling my promise to God to raise you in the faith.

We are all God’s children, and we are stubborn willful children at that! He has tried to guide us in his ways and sometimes he has to give us a punishment or lesson to guide us back to the right path. If you look in the old testament there are many instances where God punished us by giving us exactly what we asked for. One instance that comes to mind is when we asked for an earthly King and he said he was our King…we still wanted an earthly king despite what he said so he gave us one to teach us the folly of our ways…So we ended up with King David, King Solomon, etc…mortal men who made grievous mistakes despite their love for God.
 
A loving father disciplines his errant children.

When we speak about His punishements of death we are looking at it through human eyes. We do not know what God actually did to their souls.
 
I’ve seen some speculation in one of those evolution documentaries that basically capitulates and asserts that the aggressivemess of the human race is the reason for its biological survival.

Personally I wouldn’t be too influenced by what I read in these forums, without a lot of documentation, meditation, and prayer.

Before anyone even gets to the subject of the morality of the matter of war, its seems that people should be addressing the causes of conflict – racial, religious, ethnic, economic, perhaps even intellectual exploitation.

Some think that the U.S. is morally bankrupt because we get involved in wars so readily. Osama Bin Laden expressed his criticism of the U.S. using nuclear bombs in WWII. The historical context of the use of nuclear weapons is really only now being fully developed, as classified documents in the U.S. and elsewhere are being brought to the attention of the public.

Certainly the U.S. has pulled back strenously from the use of nuclear brinksmanship. But, what do we do when faced with nationalistic powers such as North Korea and Iran, which just seem to be “itching” for a fight?

The leader of N. Korea is fanning paranoia that the U.S. has imminent plans to invade it, despite the obvious fact that the U.S. is so bogged down in the Middle East with a war in terror.

The enemies of the U.S. have very short memories, and always portray the U.S. as aggressors, when we are, I believe, only providing a response to the terrorist attacks that have occurred in the U.S.

The historical situation cannot be ignored. But, I think it is our Christian duty to be the “light” and “salt” that Jesus talks about. The bible says that there will be wars until the end of time. I don’t believe that there is a guarantee of peace in the time of mortals on the earth.

It’s a sweeping statement, but I don’t think the wars in the Bible were like modern wars of conquest, or that there is a mindset like the Muslims have towards permanent jihad.

There are so many issues here.

I would suggest Fr. Jean Corbon, “Path to Freedom” for an overview of God’s unqualified love of mankind. I had to read it slowly and think about it a lot. But, it’s worth working through it, if you can get it.

After WWII, the bishops of the U.S., I understand, issued a document approving of the military action of the Allies in the war.
 
Don’t be caught up in the temporal–focus on the spiritual. We don’t know what happened to the souls of those killed in the OT.

The temporal punishments and violence of the OT teach lessons of the violence sin inflicts on our spiritual life. The sins that received death in the OT are ones that lead to eternal death (Hell) in the more fully revealed sprirtual reality of the NT.

Our sins also can lead our children to spiritual harm which is why we see children killed with their parents in the OT. God is tangibly showing us the effect of sin–He’s driving that point home in the OT. Jesus, as you may know, talked more about Hell than Heaven. Just as when the Israelites stopped walking in God’s ways they would be dispersed, so are we separated from the kingdom of God when we mortally sin and abanndon His ways–and when we repent we are reunited.
 
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FightingFat:
Dear brothers and sisters in Christ

I hope this is the right forum for this thread, I couldn’t really come to a conclusion about where to put it.

I wanted to start a discussion about what we as a Church- a people- a community; of God, have learned about the nature of God to this point in history.

As an English Catholic, born of Irish stock, I was brought up by nuns and priests in the firmly avowed knowledge that God is Love. Still, now, the teachings of our Holy Father seem to be clear about that idea. My own Parish community would assert this as truth.

As a man, I have lived my life under the assumption that the God of love, the King of peace would want me to temper my behaviour to these simple and obvious rules. Love the Lord thy God and love thy neighbour.

My experiences recently on this forum have left my mind in all kinds of confusion and led me to questions lots of my feelings about the nature of my loving God.

I have started wondering about the violence and war that God seems to condone in the OT. The God of love who commands us not to murder, yet when Moses returns from receiving the commandments, the first thing that happens is a load of people are put to the sword. The first born of Israel are slain. And, as has been quoted to me here numerous times, Jesus came to bring the sword (Matthew 10:34).

What are your thoughts on these things and how do they relate to your faith?
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For Moses, there is difference from murder and killing. The Lord God is loving, but tempermental, which it says often in the OT. Things changed when Jesus died for us, it averted God’s wrath from punishment, so now He has been appeased for our sins and wont punish us any more with His wrath on Earth. Like the rain bow and flood. I have noticed some very disturbing behaviors and things from fellow Christians tat has made me question what is being taught to people these days. I grew up similar to you, raised by my Mother and Deacon grandfather and pious grandmother. I alwats was taught to be respectful, loving, caring, and kind, but this seems not to be the norm now with what I have read some people post here, who claim to be Catholic. It makes me feel sad and afraid for the future.
 
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BryPGuy89:
I have noticed some very disturbing behaviors and things from fellow Christians tat has made me question what is being taught to people these days. I grew up similar to you, raised by my Mother and Deacon grandfather and pious grandmother. I alwats was taught to be respectful, loving, caring, and kind, but this seems not to be the norm now with what I have read some people post here, who claim to be Catholic. It makes me feel sad and afraid for the future.
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I’m so glad it’s not just me! Pax vobiscum brother! 🙂
 
I always taught my children to turn the other cheek whenever possible. I also taught them to stand up to bullies and defend those weaker than themselves.

Pray for your enemies, forgive those who hurt you and leave vengence to God - that’s in His job description, not mine.
 
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