God or Gods

[Montie_Claunch]

This has been boggoling my mind for a while now and I just can’t figure out the answer. In Saint Thomas Aquinas Summa works he uses reasoning that God exists. As I look at it, it seems to prove that there is a deity, no neccessaraly God as in our God but, at least a God. I have been pondering over how would one show that there is only one God and that is our God to the negation of others? Overtly we wouldn’t be able to use the bible scince an objector could just as easily say that it was either man made or that this God was simply neglecting to mention others. The Former objection in the previous sentence would could simply assert the testomony in history from the saints, miricles ect. But, this still leaves open the door of, “well there have been other ‘Miricales’ in other religions why not their gods also?”. And that is where I have hit a mental block. Does anyone have any ideas? 'Cause I know that eventually someone is going to come out with this and I would like to know what to say (and plus I hate haveing doubts in the back of my mind, no matter how small). Thanks and God bless.

P.S. ask if something isn’t clear (and please tell me which part is not clear so I can elaborate on it). Thanks.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Montie Claunch:

This has been boggoling my mind for a while now and I just can’t figure out the answer. In Saint Thomas Aquinas Summa works he uses reasoning that God exists. As I look at it, it seems to prove that there is a deity, no neccessaraly God as in our God but, at least a God. I have been pondering over how would one show that there is only one God and that is our God to the negation of others? Overtly we wouldn’t be able to use the bible scince an objector could just as easily say that it was either man made or that this God was simply neglecting to mention others. The Former objection in the previous sentence would could simply assert the testomony in history from the saints, miricles ect. But, this still leaves open the door of, “well there have been other ‘Miricales’ in other religions why not their gods also?”. And that is where I have hit a mental block. Does anyone have any ideas? 'Cause I know that eventually someone is going to come out with this and I would like to know what to say (and plus I hate haveing doubts in the back of my mind, no matter how small). Thanks and God bless.

P.S. ask if something isn’t clear (and please tell me which part is not clear so I can elaborate on it). Thanks.

If there is a God at all, there can be one only - to be God, is to be unique & infinite: otherwise, one would be just another entity in the universe, not the Being without Whom that Universe cannot live. IOW, God is necessary to the universe, and to each created being - we depend utterly on God to be and to live and to contnue in being. But God des not depend on on any creature, nor on all creation together.​

Knowing that there is a God =/= knowing God. it is possible to work out by reason that God is unique: that is not the same as knowing God is Our Father. One is knowledge about God - the other is knowing Who God is by sharing His own Life.

If there are true miracles - they are God’s. If there is salvation, it is God’s. God is universal, the God of all creation - that’s a reason His Church is universal. Christ does not need to be named, for His Spirit to fill the whole earth - that does not mean His gifts are any less wholly His.

Hope that helps ##

 

[hurst]

Montie Claunch:

The Former objection in the previous sentence would could simply assert the testomony in history from the saints, miricles ect. But, this still leaves open the door of, “well there have been other ‘Miricales’ in other religions why not their gods also?”. And that is where I have hit a mental block. Does anyone have any ideas?

The testimony of the Church and the ongoing miracles today should suffice.

Also consider this: there is no other religion in existence whereby a man claims to be God. Only in ours is God made man, and is come down to suffer and die to redeem us!

hurst

 

[cheddarsox]

hurst:

The testimony of the Church and the ongoing miracles today should suffice.

Also consider this: there is no other religion in existence whereby a man claims to be God. Only in ours is God made man, and is come down to suffer and die to redeem us!

hurst

There are lots of people throughout history that have claimed to be God, or manifestations of God on earth. (Adi da sam raj is a current example) .

What you mention is just another example of one church’s claims vs. anothers.

One must choose what one will believe. There are, as the OP said, other miracles, saints, teachers, out there.

cheddar

 

[awalt]

Keep reading - the Summa develops our beliefs as you read more. It will get into the Trinity, the three natures of God, Jesus Christ, and more.

Once you understand and believe all those premises, you have completely and unambiguously described our God.

 

[hurst]

cheddarsox:

There are lots of people throughout history that have claimed to be God, or manifestations of God on earth. (Adi da sam raj is a current example) .

Perhaps there are isolated cases of people saying this, but there is no established religion apart from Christianity whereby we worship a person who claimed to be God.

Even in the case of the ancient philosophers who speculated about God, or made such claims as you mention, none of them came up with the notion of God becoming man and suffering and dying to save us.

cheddarsox:

What you mention is just another example of one church’s claims vs. anothers.

True. But I think the Roman Catholic Church has much better credentials, seeing as to how it has survived 2000 years of civilizations, scandals, corruption, and persecution. And that it still generates saints to this day.

cheddarsox:

One must choose what one will believe. There are, as the OP said, other miracles, saints, teachers, out there.

Yes, we must choose. But we must act according to our belief.

To choose the Catholic Church would be to choose something quite established yet unique. It would be to choose obedience and suffering for a promised joy and glory.

While I will agree you will find other teachers, and some other miracles, what “other” saints are out there?

hurst

 

[rossum]

hurst:

But I think the Roman Catholic Church has much better credentials, seeing as to how it has survived 2000 years of civilizations, scandals, corruption, and persecution.

I would be careful with that argument. There are older surviving religions than Catholicism, one of which was founded by the same God. They all have their share of scandals, corruption, and persecution. You are not on very strong ground here.

rossum

 

[hurst]

rossum:

You are not on very strong ground here.

The fact is, though, it is the only ground. Since being Catholic requires obedience to the Church and what it tells us to believe as from God, we have to decide based on the Church’s existence.

What other religion deserves our obedience? Muslims have no central authority. Jews no longer have a temple. What else is there that can be traced back to the beginning of creation, reasonably expect our obedience even in our private lives, and foster the hope of eternal life?

hurst

 

[rossum]

hurst:

The fact is, though, it is the only ground.

The Catholic Church has survived 2000 years, some other religions have survivrd for longer. The Catholic Church has been subject to scandals, corruption, and persecution. So have the other religions. Your grounds for argument are not unique to the Catholic Church and hence are weak.

hurst:

Since being Catholic requires obedience to the Church and what it tells us to believe as from God, we have to decide based on the Church’s existence.

You may have to decide on that basis. I am Buddhist so my sources of authority are different.

hurst:

What else is there that can be traced back to the beginning of creation

The last time I looked Christianity could only be traced back to the life of Jesus, not to creation. Judaism can be traced back further than Christianity. You seem to me to be overstating your case here.

rossum

 

[hurst]

rossum:

You may have to decide on that basis.

For anyone to become Catholic, they would have to make the same decision, because it involves obeying someone on earth.

rossum:

I am Buddhist so my sources of authority are different.

But do you obey someone? Or are you on your own, merely following wise but optional advice?

rossum:

The last time I looked Christianity could only be traced back to the life of Jesus, not to creation. Judaism can be traced back further than Christianity. You seem to me to be overstating your case here.

Christ was a Jew, so it includes the roots of Judaism, for Christ fulfilled the Scriptures kept by the Jews.

hurst

 

[trogiah]

Montie Claunch:

This has been boggoling my mind for a while now and I just can’t figure out the answer. In Saint Thomas Aquinas Summa works he uses reasoning that God exists. As I look at it, it seems to prove that there is a deity, no neccessaraly God as in our God but, at least a God. I have been pondering over how would one show that there is only one God and that is our God to the negation of others? Overtly we wouldn’t be able to use the bible scince an objector could just as easily say that it was either man made or that this God was simply neglecting to mention others. The Former objection in the previous sentence would could simply assert the testomony in history from the saints, miricles ect. But, this still leaves open the door of, “well there have been other ‘Miricales’ in other religions why not their gods also?”. And that is where I have hit a mental block. Does anyone have any ideas? 'Cause I know that eventually someone is going to come out with this and I would like to know what to say (and plus I hate haveing doubts in the back of my mind, no matter how small). Thanks and God bless.

P.S. ask if something isn’t clear (and please tell me which part is not clear so I can elaborate on it). Thanks.

Here goes, see if this makes any sense to you:

I have come to the conclusion that, if our faith demands that we must consider the evidence and logical arguements and decide that, yes indeed God does exist - then I must say that I have failed in my faith and I don’t really think God exists.

Not to worry, I have also come to the conclustion that this is not what our faith demands of us.

Does God exist?

God is the name by which I attempt to address existence. One might as well ask “Does existence exist?” Is Reality real?"
All scripture defines God to be Reality - and then it tries to guide us to stay in touch with reality.

The most clear expression of this way of thinking about God is the passage where Moses asks the voice that he hears in the burning bush “what is your name” and the voice says “I am who am”

Reality is what Moses heard speak from the burning bush and from the mountain when he was given the Ten Commandments and other places.

Reality is what Jesus knew the way an only and most beloved son knows his own father.

Perhaps the important question any person who is seeking faith must ask, rather than “Does God exist?” is “Can I have a real relationship with Reality?”

Jesus says “Yes” to that second question and shows us how to do it.

That is how I see it

peace

-Jim

 

[hurst]

trogiah:

I have come to the conclusion that, if our faith demands that we must consider the evidence and logical arguements and decide that, yes indeed God does exist - then I must say that I have failed in my faith and I don’t really think God exists.

If you fail in reasoning that God must exist, you can still accept it on faith.

trogiah:

Not to worry, I have also come to the conclustion that this is not what our faith demands of us.

Recognizing the existence of God is a prerequisite to faith in Him.

trogiah:

God is the name by which I attempt to address existence. One might as well ask “Does existence exist?”

This shows you have in fact reasoned properly, for the essence of God is existence.

trogiah:

Perhaps the important question any person who is seeking faith must ask, rather than “Does God exist?” is “Can I have a real relationship with Reality?”

Jesus says “Yes” to that second question and shows us how to do it.

That is how I see it

I second that

hurst

 

[rossum]

hurst:

But do you obey someone? Or are you on your own, merely following wise but optional advice?

The latter. In Buddhism you are responsible for your own actions. Whether you act skilfully or unskilfully is up to you.Neither in the sky nor in mid-ocean,
nor in a cave in the mountains,
is there a place where a man
can escape his evil deed.

(Dhammapada 9 v12)“I was only following orders” is not a valid excuse.

rossum

 

[Magicsilence]

rossum:

The last time I looked Christianity could only be traced back to the life of Jesus, not to creation. Judaism can be traced back further than Christianity. You seem to me to be overstating your case here.

rossum

As has already been said:

Jesus was a jew, he was born into the ancient jewish faith but was the Saviour.

If the jews had accepted Him, then there would be no “jews” today.

Christianity is only the name of Judaism + Jesus.

In Christ.

Andre.