God order killing?

[Reservoir_Dog]

No, not at all-I’m sure the battle happened-and I can’t speak directly for the Church on this matter anyway. But what I’m saying is that the OT must be read in light of the new, and while the conditions were much different in the lives of Gods’ chosen people as they struggled for survival-a survival He desired and guaranteed for His purposes-I’m unconvinced that every place in the OT where it’s said that God spoke and directed His people in a particular way is necessarily an exact portrayal of His will rather than a human take on it. If it was God’s will that every man, woman, and child be slain in Jericho, then this would have to in any case be understood as an act of His love for mankind. While I don’t know of any official position on this matter by the Magistereum, I do know of her teachings on the nature of God.

Thanks for the explanation, we’re probably close on our respective interpretations.

 

[UnityofTrinity]

We only know in the story of Jericho that God ordered the Israelite troop to killed and to destroy EVERYTHING(young, old, man, woman, human, animals…), but how many survive by following Rahab? We are not uncertain of the numbers, thus, we can’t say whether or not the children suffered, or were there any children under the age of reason in that town.

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

We only know in the story of Jericho that God ordered the Israelite troop to killed and to destroy EVERYTHING(young, old, man, woman, human, animals…), but how many survive by following Rahab? We are not uncertain of the numbers, thus, we can’t say whether or not the children suffered, or were there any children under the age of reason in that town.

That’s an ad hoc argument because the obvious is difficult to digest. The Israelites killed Canaanite children, v. 21 specifically states that the “young” were put to the sword.

Reasons for this mass slaughter (as well as the others), which were specific to that time and place, served a specific purpose of God, and by no means a model for today, are set out in earlier posts.

 

[diggerdomer]

Yes that is definitely true. So are you then saying that this story should be likewise viewed as allegory/fiction?

Maybe. I don’t know for sure, and more importantly for me the Catholic Church doesn’t teach one way or another. It may be allegory. It may be fiction. It may be the best understanding the people at the time had, given their context and the way they expressed it.

I don’t really understand why it wouldn’t be. Why wouldn’t the author want to give as accurate a portrayal as possible, especially if guided by the Holy Spirit when writing? Wouldn’t this give pause to the accuracy of the rest of the Bible? God knew that people in 2,000 years would still be reading this.

God knew this, but that’s no reason to expect that the human authors did.

Of course the authors would want to give an accurate portrayal as possible.

Again…according to their own times, cultural context, literary form (remember, the majority of the Old Testament was handed on by oral tradition long before it became written down), etc.
Hope this helps.

 

[diggerdomer]

What I am saying is that the portrayal of God does not seem to match with what a perfect God would do, and God is perfect. So how is this reconciled?

The portrayal of God in Scriptures is not the same as portraying God.

Any human portrayal of God will fall short of the full and real truth, except for Jesus Christ.

 

[diggerdomer]

Do you know of any additional resources from the Church which touch on this issue in particular?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church.

The Pontifical Biblical Commission’s Instruction on the Interpretation of the Bible in the Church (ewtn.com/library/curia/pbcinter.htm)

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

The portrayal of God in Scriptures is not the same as portraying God.

Any human portrayal of God will fall short of the full and real truth, except for Jesus Christ.

So were the survivors of the Jericho siege executed at God’s direction or not?

 

[uglygal]

UnityofTrinity in Christ,

I have not examined every instance in scripture concerning God’s commands to kill individuals or particular groups of people. Therefore, I will answer your question in a general way that applies generally to most situations.

First of all, it is important to remember that God made everything and has “unlimited” rights over his creation.

The distance between man and God is infinite, while the distance between man and lower living creatures is finite and very small relative to our position vis-a-vis our creator. Man is completely justified in annihilating germs and microbes that cause disease and no one bats an eye. Likewise, man kills termites by the millions and no one cries over them either. We can go up the hierarchy of living creatures and few will ever get excited about a man catching, killing and then eating a fish. Man has dominion over the lower creatures and no one gets worked up over the actions of man until we get pretty far up the hierarchy of living creatures. Even then, most will not get excited if we kill a beautiful wild beast in self defense or if we need it for food in order to survive.

We have dominion over lower living organisms, but our dominion is not the same as the infinite rights possessed by God over his creation which he “continuously” maintains in existence.

Secondly, man is not in a position to know and see what God does, and man is not in a position to even begin to appreciate God’s justice. Likewise, man’s sense of justice, love, and mercy are imperfect while God’s sense of these things is infinitely perfect.

Thirdly, man is not infinite or perfect. Man is prone to sin and often commits sin. Man, who is finite sins against God who is infinite. The seriousness of the sins of finite man against our infinite God dwarf the seriousness of a dog mauling its master’s child. In the latter finite case and circumstance, no one has a problem dispatching the canine offender.

Keeping all of these things in mind, helps us appreciate that the standards man applies in his daily living, to whatever degree they are good, are only appropriate in so far as they apply to finite men dealing with other finite creatures such as themselves and other lower forms of life. It is totally inappropriate for us to try applying our judgment, as if it is somehow the standard, to the actions of God. We have only fragments of the picture and have little or no clue what is proper.

God would be perfectly within his rights if he chose to simply shut the power off to all that he has created. God’s love, mercy, and divine plan come into play in ways that explain why he has not done that very thing. No one has earned God’s love and mercy nor do we deserve it. Instead, it is freely given but not at the expense of God’s perfect justice. The problem is that we do not properly appreciate the justice, let alone the love and mercy that is God’s.

I hope this helps.

It might just be me, but this type of argument does not make sense to me. If even a human, who’s love, mercy and justice is imperfect, can sense injustice. Then how much more would God.
At times, this argument sounds like God can do what he wants and call “justice” whatever he wants. If it doesn’t make sense and seems repugnant to us little humans supposedly made in his image, its because his wisdom and knowledge is higher than ours. Claiming a mystical higher knowledge sounds like a “trust me” argument. I mean, how much ‘higher’ knowledge do you need to understand what is unjust or just plain evil. Even if there is a “master plan” it doesn’t change the unjust or evil nature of an act.

I’m just speaking for myself, and as I said it may just be me, but this doesn’t make sense to me and leaves me confused. Maybe it’ll make sense as I learn more

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

Maybe it would make more sense if, instead of this elaborate interpretive dance, you just tried to understand what purposes the slaughter of the Canaanite population in 140BC served. Its not like this is some great mystery.

That way, you can also avoid false analogies.

 

[uglygal]

excuse me? what elaborative interpretive dance?
I didn’t interpret any scripture

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

excuse me? what elaborative interpretive dance?
I didn’t interpret any scripture

Did you see me quote you or are you just assuming that I did? That is a rhetorical question. I didn’t.

 

[Pax]

It might just be me, but this type of argument does not make sense to me. If even a human, who’s love, mercy and justice is imperfect, can sense injustice. Then how much more would God.
At times, this argument sounds like God can do what he wants and call “justice” whatever he wants. If it doesn’t make sense and seems repugnant to us little humans supposedly made in his image, its because his wisdom and knowledge is higher than ours. Claiming a mystical higher knowledge sounds like a “trust me” argument. I mean, how much ‘higher’ knowledge do you need to understand what is unjust or just plain evil. Even if there is a “master plan” it doesn’t change the unjust or evil nature of an act.

I’m just speaking for myself, and as I said it may just be me, but this doesn’t make sense to me and leaves me confused. Maybe it’ll make sense as I learn more

uglygal in Christ,

None of what I wrote was meant to suggest or imply that God can declare “justice” as whatever he wants in some goofy or manipulative way. Please note that God created all justice and that God has perfect justice. We have little or no sense of what that perfect justice entails because our view is quite limited and narrow. We can speculate and explore, but our wisdom and knowledge is pure vanity compared with the infinite knowledge, wisdom, mercy, and justice of God. Please note, that the chasm and distance between God and man in these things is greater than the chasm and distance between man and an amoeba.

There is a “trust me” element to this in so far as we must trust God and not ourselves. Paul tells us that we “see in a mirror dimly”(1 Cor 13:12). So yes…we must trust in God’s judgments and not our own. To suggest that God is somehow unjust is a grotesque exercise of ego on our part. Trying to understand what is under consideration on this topic is not easy. I think, however, that we cannot ignore the natural order and simply call it a day. The natural order gives us at least some data that we must somehow take into account.

God is totally above nature and every created thing. You and I do not judge justice between lower forms of life and how they interact with one another. Justice in those cases is essentially irrelevant. Justice is irrelevant to a bear killing a fish, a bear killing a fish and eating it, or a bear simply passing by one fish for another. Fish have no sense of justice and are only concerned “by instinct” to survive and possibly escape the bear’s jaws. Just because we are human does not somehow give us the power, insight, and right to figure out any schema of “justice” between lower forms of life. None of that would make any sense at all. Now try turning 180 degrees and look toward the creator. If we cannot establish a schema for lower forms of life that we can see, and if we even have trouble with human to human schemes of justice, just how is it that we can imagine that we shall somehow divine what it is about God’s actions that are justice or unjust?

God has set standards for man in how he is to interact with animals. You can find references to this in scripture so I won’t list them here. Likewise, God has set standards for man towards man. God has also set standards for how man is to behave toward God. God did not render to us a set of restrictions on himself as to what he can and cannot do with His creation. The justice that is applied between men, does not necessarily have to be a reflection of how God must interact with what he created.

It has been pointed out earlier that God has all of the rights. Think about that.

Jimmy Akin in one of his blog articles takes a different approach to all of this than I do, and his explanations are persuasive in many ways. You can check it out here:

jimmyakin.org/2007/02/hard_sayings_of.html#more

I do not contend that my explanations are the only ones or even necessarily the right ones. I do, however, believe that people often set their feelings and their sense of justice against God’s infinite rights over his creation when it comes to logically trying to sort this out. In my opinion, we simply cannot do that. Likewise, I am extremely suspicious of my own thinking and that of my fellow man when it comes to second guessing that which God has done as it is portrayed in the Old Testament. I become even more concerned when we attempt to examine these issues in terms of the OT “only” without balancing everything with the understandings from the NT.

All that having been said, I appreciate your points…I certainly do not have satisfying answers for this issue and your points are well taken.

God bless.