God responsible for evil?

  • Thread starter Thread starter DonQuichote1235
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Counterpoint said:
If I was created to desire both good and evil (which is what your argument of free will implies), then God is ulitimately responsible for my evil desires. (Free will is simply the capacity to fulfill whatever it is you desire.)
Click to expand...
Perhaps rephrasing it to “created to have the power to choose good or evil” would be more apt. Attributing responsibility to the maker for an object with freedom to choose is not logical. If the object (man) was not free, then you may have a point that God is responsible, but that is not the case here. Man can choose freely.

For example, if a manufacturer of a device or substance that can be put to good use but was instead used wrongly, you can not hold the manufacturer responsible. For example a knife maker. The knife can be used for good but also for evil. One can not logically hold the knife maker responsible for evil acts arising from abuse of the knife.
 
ericc said:
Perhaps rephrasing it to “created to have the power to choose good or evil” would be more apt. Attributing responsibility to the maker for an object with freedom to choose is not logical.
Click to expand...
The free will theodicy doesn’t work because the only one who can logically have free will is God.
 
Counterpoint said:
The free will theodicy doesn’t work because the only one who can logically have free will is God.
Click to expand...
Correct since that is only God who has the full knowledge. We however have relative free will since our action could be relatively evil or good depending on how much we know and how good we trained our intellect. Freedom is not free.
 
Bahman said:
Correct since that is only God who has the full knowledge. We however have relative free will since our action could be relatively evil or good depending on how much we know and how good we trained our intellect. Freedom is not free.
Click to expand...
Enough freedom to understand good /evil. And so will one be judged according to the relative guilt one commit.
 
Counterpoint said:
The free will theodicy doesn’t work because the only one who can logically have free will is God.
Click to expand...
Don’t we all have some free will to decide things for ourselves, no matter how imperfect? As long as there is sufficient freedom, we can not use the escape clause that our actions are caveated by less than 100% freedom because the nature of the act committed need not necessarily require 100% freedom to act “properly”… Killing an innocent baby in spite of less than 100% freedom does not give your much wriggle room. If the deficiency of x% freedom has no bearing on the decision, you can not rely on that deficiency to escape culpability.

Anyway, as a Catholic it is not my position to judge how free or unfree someone mind is. God is the judge and no matter how intense the discussion, no one knows your heart. As a Catholic, all I am saying is based upon what I know, there is Judgement Day for everyone. I am concerned about the long term aspect for everyone’s soul, even though one may not subscribed to my beliefs. With an open-mind, you can not deny that the Christian faith do bring some value morals-wise. To the educated atheist, believing in religion may be a waste of time and believers are not “bright”. But one can not deny religion done properly do bring good to the world. Why go against something good although in some one else’s mind, not “bright”? The time I spent with God is my time and I did not encroached into another persons time. If I use my time to know and worship God and try to be a better person, isn’t that good for the world? Why do some non-believers think we are out to make the world a worse place to live in and therefore must be put down, humiliated, reduced to simpletons? The evidence, in spite of people who abuse religion for their own ends, still demonstrate that religion do increase the net good to this world. The opposite, namely atheism and its relations, is not so clear how much good it brought to this world, although some statistics have shown it brought more deaths (via communism) than religion. For atheists, even if I can not convince you that religion is good for you, at the very least, try not to be an obstacle to people who are searching for God in their lives. Religion does improve a person’s behaviour.
 
Counterpoint said:
The free will theodicy doesn’t work because the only one who can logically have free will is God.
Click to expand...
If we don’t have free will then why does the legal system, even in tribal structures hold us responsible for our actions?.

Linus2nd
 
Counterpoint said:
Well, if they were not created to desire only what is good. then it logically follows that they must have been created to also desire evil. Either way, God is ultimately responsible for evil.
Click to expand...
You and Bahman should start a club, the absence of reason club. If you wish to dissuade people from believing in God, you will at least have to use reason, arguments that make sense. But that is impossible becuase arguments that make sense all conclude to the fact that God exists and that a Divine Revelation is reasonable and that God should establish a Church to reveal his Truths to us.

So all either of you have is mental deception, mental slight of hand, endless trails that end in dead ends, none of which ends in Truth.

Linus2nd
 
ericc said:
Don’t we all have some free will to decide things for ourselves, no matter how imperfect? As long as there is sufficient freedom, we can not use the escape clause that our actions are caveated by less than 100% freedom because the nature of the act committed need not necessarily require 100% freedom to act “properly”… Killing an innocent baby in spite of less than 100% freedom does not give your much wriggle room. If the deficiency of x% freedom has no bearing on the decision, you can not rely on that deficiency to escape culpability.
Click to expand...
Either everything that happens is determined or it is not. If it is, then determinism holds true. If some things are not, then indeterminism holds true. If determinism holds true, then every thought we have, decision we make, and action we take could not have been otherwise. If indeterminism holds true, then the only reason why some thoughts we have, decisions we make, and actions we take could have been otherwise must ultimately be reduced to pure chance or randomness. We cannot be held more morally responsible for something that ultimately reduces to chance or randomness than we can for something that was completely predetermined.
ericc said:
Anyway, as a Catholic it is not my position to judge how free or unfree someone mind is.
Click to expand...
It would appear to me that the faithful are not permitted by the Church to engage in any critical thinking. Theirs is simply to believe, obey, and never question why.
ericc said:
The time I spent with God is my time and I did not encroached into another persons time. If I use my time to know and worship God and try to be a better person, isn’t that good for the world?
Click to expand...
The Catholic Church is engaged in proselytizing their beliefs. In fact, the very mission of this forum is intended for such a purpose. And since they have chosen to enter the market place of ideas, then they have chosen to have their beliefs subject to public scrutiny and criticism. You have no reason to cry foul.
 
Bahman said:
Correct since that is only God who has the full knowledge. We however have relative free will since our action could be relatively evil or good depending on how much we know and how good we trained our intellect. Freedom is not free.
Click to expand...
Right. Everyone is doing the best they can given their present situation and circumstances. If I can clearly see that, then I will assume that God can also.
 
Counterpoint said:
Either everything that happens is determined or it is not. If it is, then determinism holds true. If some things are not, then indeterminism holds true. If determinism holds true, then every thought we have, decision we make, and action we take could not have been otherwise. If indeterminism holds true, then the only reason why some thoughts we have, decisions we make, and actions we take could have been otherwise must ultimately be reduced to pure chance or randomness. We cannot be held more morally responsible for something that ultimately reduces to chance or randomness than we can for something that was completely predetermined.
Click to expand...
I think this was covered elsewhere.
It would appear to me that the faithful are not permitted by the Church to engage in any critical thinking. Theirs is simply to believe, obey, and never question why.
Click to expand...
A wrong perception on your part.
The Catholic Church is engaged in proselytizing their beliefs. In fact, the very mission of this forum is intended for such a purpose. And since they have chosen to enter the market place of ideas, then they have chosen to have their beliefs subject to public criticism.
Click to expand...
It does not deserve the hostility for our belief though. Perhaps if you were to provide your reasons, then it would appear justified. What are we doing so wrong that attracts such hostility? The Church tries to do good. There are many many other worse things out there that barely attracts any of your attention.
 
ericc said:
I think this was covered elsewhere.
Click to expand...
Yes, it was. And the point still stands.
ericc said:
A wrong perception on your part.
Click to expand...
It’s a perception based on evidence.
ericc said:
It does not deserve the hostility for our belief though. Perhaps if you were to provide your reasons, then it would appear justified. What are we doing so wrong that attracts such hostility?
Click to expand...
Having been raised Catholic, I consider myself to have been a victim of the Church’s indoctrination.
 
Counterpoint said:
Yes, it was. And the point still stands.
Click to expand...
Says who? Others have replied but perhaps not to your satisfaction.
It’s a perception based on evidence.
Click to expand...
Disagree. There are all sorts. Some are meek, some will question, some have faith. Your conclusion must therefore mean your data samples are biased or the crowd you mixed with are of a certain sort. You definitely do not have the whole population in your analysis. Just because you knew those who are less discerning than you, extrapolating to the population is not fair. The Church has produced many high level thinking philosophers, Aquinas for example.
Having been raised Catholic, I consider myself to have been a victim of the Church’s indoctrination.
Click to expand...
So sorry to hear that you felt so victimized. Perhaps it is your teachers fault. But why blame the Church? I am also raised Catholic. But why blame poor catechism on the Church? I too have not so great catechism teachers. I fell away too for around 20 years but I woke up (God works in strange ways I tell you) and came back. But never have I ever push the blame to the Church for my terrible understanding of my faith. But it is thanks to guys like you that require me to look deep into my understanding of my faith. At the end of it, God exists, whether you like it or not. There is really no other choice. Remember the Pascal wager. It makes a lot of sense to a gambling man, which I once was and now a poorer me. Eternity vs now. Your call.

Like many intelligent thinking man, never burn your bridges, especially with God. He does love you, you know. Do spend some time in the Adoration Chapel, alone. It takes courage to confront God.
 
MacQ said:
Poor you.
I do hope that you can find a way to get over it and move on.
It’s clear you haven’t
Click to expand...
I have broken free from the shackles of my conditioning. And now I can see much more clearly.
 
Counterpoint said:
Either everything that happens is determined or it is not. If it is, then determinism holds true. If some things are not, then indeterminism holds true. If determinism holds true, then every thought we have, decision we make, and action we take could not have been otherwise. If indeterminism holds true, then the only reason why some thoughts we have, decisions we make, and actions we take could have been otherwise must ultimately be reduced to pure chance or randomness. We cannot be held more morally responsible for something that ultimately reduces to chance or randomness than we can for something that was completely predetermined.

It would appear to me that the faithful are not permitted by the Church to engage in any critical thinking. Theirs is simply to believe, obey, and never question why.

The Catholic Church is engaged in proselytizing their beliefs. In fact, the very mission of this forum is intended for such a purpose. And since they have chosen to enter the market place of ideas, then they have chosen to have their beliefs subject to public scrutiny and criticism. You have no reason to cry foul.
Click to expand...
I think that you point out very well that there is no such thing as degrees of freedom. We are either free, or we are not.

Back to the OP for a moment…if your are an all-powerful deity and evil exists in your domain, among your created creatures, you shoulder the ultimate responsibility. Either you created it, or allowed it. There can be no other choices.
 
oldcelt said:
I think that you point out very well that there is no such thing as degrees of freedom. We are either free, or we are not.

Back to the OP for a moment…if your are an all-powerful deity and evil exists in your domain, among your created creatures, you shoulder the ultimate responsibility. Either you created it, or allowed it. There can be no other choices.
Click to expand...
Isn’t that nice blaming God for everything and therefore none of yours. All I can say is, let us see what God says at the end of our lives. If you bet wrong, it will be a sad state of affairs.
 
oldcelt said:
I think that you point out very well that there is no such thing as degrees of freedom. We are either free, or we are not.

Back to the OP for a moment…if your are an all-powerful deity and evil exists in your domain, among your created creatures, you shoulder the ultimate responsibility. Either you created it, or allowed it. There can be no other choices.
Click to expand...
👍 The ultimate responsibility also applies to everything we hold most precious - including our very existence and power to think for ourselves…
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top