God Save the Queen!

[LoyalViews]

It’s talked about from time to time but hasn’t happened yet. If William or Harry had got engaged to a Catholic I imagine it would have been done sharpish. To clarify, the Queen doesn’t have the personal power to revoke a law already in place, that would be the job of Parliament and she would then sign the replacement act into law. Technically, she could refuse to sign a new law. The last time this happened was in 1708.

Yes, I know how it works. All I’ve heard on it was internet rumours, I think.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

It’s talked about from time to time but hasn’t happened yet. If William or Harry had got engaged to a Catholic I imagine it would have been done sharpish. To clarify, the Queen doesn’t have the personal power to revoke a law already in place, that would be the job of Parliament and she would then sign the replacement act into law. Technically, she could refuse to sign a new law. The last time this happened was in 1708.

Well, King George V refused to be crowned until Parliament removed the anti-Catholic elements from the Royal Oath attacking the veneration of relics, saints etc. And Parliament did so. So he did, technically, influence the law.

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

You shall have no kings before me, or so the good book says…
But to call the British monarchy a kingship would be an exaggeration, it’s more of a ceremonial head of state these days with little actual power.

Actually, you are completely wrong. Up here in Her Majesty’s Dominion of Canada, I work at a legislature where the Crown and its power is used everywhere. In fact, the executive, legislative and legal framework of our entire country is based on the powers of the Crown.

We also refer to the people representing the Crown as a “team” including the Queen, the Governor General and the Lieutenant Governors of the provinces.

It was the influence of the Crown and the values derived from it that ended slavery years before the U.S. did (thanks to William Wilberforce and students of his like our first Lieutenant Governor, John Simcoe).

In fact, the U.S. Civil War was not even fought, at the outset, because of slavery (so said Lincoln himself and General Grant was a slave-owner before and after the war).

We have a multicultural nation living under the Crown and it’s, well, very nice . . .

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Catholics are free to be either republican or monarchist. As for the British state, it is a republic implicitly since the Glorious Revolution.

The French Revolution was basically an attempt to import the British constitution to the continent. Voltaire and Montesquieu were ardent Anglophiles, became Freemasons in London and wrote books extolling the virtues of the British constitution (the Glorious Revolution and Magna Carta).

Republics are simply “public things” and, as such, can have a monarch as head of state.

The French Revolution may have started as you say, but it quickly degenerated into a type of communist and murderous revolt replete with dictators who saw themselves as demigods.

The French Republic was as anti-Catholic and militantly atheistic as any totalitarian state of the 20th century. French republican guardsmen would travel the countryside and line up villagers to come forward and spit on crucifixes held upside down and the like. They turned churches into “Temples of Reason” replete with “festivals in honour of Reason and the Virtues” - including Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.

If you doubt any of this, just pay a visit to the St Genervieve’s church in Paris, the national whatever they call it. There where the altar once stood is a large monument to France’s soldiers. In the middle there is a ball tied to a thin wire attached to the cupola above. The ball continually moves - a way the French have of constantly telling the Church that science trumps religious belief. And in the basement there are all manner of tombs to the “republican atheist saints” of the Revolution, together with flowers and even candles. There is even a video shown over and over of the burial of Victor Hugo where it shows how closely it resembles a church procession to a saint. Don’t take my word for it - go and see this for yourselves the next time you are in Paris.

It was France that paid lip service to the ideals of its Revolution and later returned variously to imperial, royal and republican forms of government. (This is why France has no pledge of allegiance - they never know what kind of government they will have next.)

In 1893, the French parliament decided to offer the crown of France, once again, to the head of the Bourbon Royal House - but he said he would only accept it if the country got rid of its revolutionary tricolour and returned to the old Royal flag of France (yes, a stupid move on his part).

The “spirit” of monarchy has never left France (which recognizes still the aristocratic hierarchy of bygone years). Its president carries himself like a king (and is referred to in the French press as the “President-Monarche”).

Republicanism has produced only a few true democracies and the U.S. has been in the habit of supporting republican heads of state who are little more than despotic dictators (Mubarak is but one example). And the U.S. took down the Shah of Iran (a great friend of the U.S.) only to have him replaced by . . . we know the rest of the story and the legacy of President Carter. Such republics put the “mock” into “democracy.”

Monarchies tend to be conservative, spiritual and economically stable places. The U.S. has made many, many errors of judgement in terms of foreign policy on this score. Hopefully, the U.S. will learn a few things.

The Catholic Church is also a monarchy and I don’t think anyone envisions a republic for the Church either.

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Hmmm. You’re referring to 1 Samuel 10:24? Very questionable translation from the Greek and/or Latin:

Either questionable or different. But most certainly it was used universally throughout the British Empire and led to the phrase, God Save The Queen."

English translations, by way of another example, almost always omit the word “Tau” in either Greek or Latin in the text where the mark the Israelites made with the blood of lambs on their doorposts before they left Egypt is discussed.

According to the Greek and Latin texts, they made the letter “T” or a form of the cross which was referred to explicitly by Pope Innocent III in a sermon which St Francis heard and then decided to adopt the letter as his form of the Cross.

Alex

 

[barb_finnegan]

Republics are simply “public things” and, as such, can have a monarch as head of state.

The French Revolution may have started as you say, but it quickly degenerated into a type of communist and murderous revolt replete with dictators who saw themselves as demigods.

The French Republic was as anti-Catholic and militantly atheistic as any totalitarian state of the 20th century. French republican guardsmen would travel the countryside and line up villagers to come forward and spit on crucifixes held upside down and the like. They turned churches into “Temples of Reason” replete with “festivals in honour of Reason and the Virtues” - including Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.

If you doubt any of this, just pay a visit to the St Genervieve’s church in Paris, the national whatever they call it. There where the altar once stood is a large monument to France’s soldiers. In the middle there is a ball tied to a thin wire attached to the cupola above. The ball continually moves - a way the French have of constantly telling the Church that science trumps religious belief. And in the basement there are all manner of tombs to the “republican atheist saints” of the Revolution, together with flowers and even candles. There is even a video shown over and over of the burial of Victor Hugo where it shows how closely it resembles a church procession to a saint. Don’t take my word for it - go and see this for yourselves the next time you are in Paris.

It was France that paid lip service to the ideals of its Revolution and later returned variously to imperial, royal and republican forms of government. (This is why France has no pledge of allegiance - they never know what kind of government they will have next.)

In 1893, the French parliament decided to offer the crown of France, once again, to the head of the Bourbon Royal House - but he said he would only accept it if the country got rid of its revolutionary tricolour and returned to the old Royal flag of France (yes, a stupid move on his part).

The “spirit” of monarchy has never left France (which recognizes still the aristocratic hierarchy of bygone years). Its president carries himself like a king (and is referred to in the French press as the “President-Monarche”).

Republicanism has produced only a few true democracies and the U.S. has been in the habit of supporting republican heads of state who are little more than despotic dictators (Mubarak is but one example). And the U.S. took down the Shah of Iran (a great friend of the U.S.) only to have him replaced by . . . we know the rest of the story and the legacy of President Carter. Such republics put the “mock” into “democracy.”

Monarchies tend to be conservative, spiritual and economically stable places. The U.S. has made many, many errors of judgement in terms of foreign policy on this score. Hopefully, the U.S. will learn a few things.

The Catholic Church is also a monarchy and I don’t think anyone envisions a republic for the Church either.

Alex

The name of the former church of St. Genevieve in Paris is called ‘The Pantheon.’ for some reason, I never got to visit it during my two visits to Paris.

You’re right on all counts about the French Revolution-they were nasty guys.

I’d pick a monarchy over a republic any day!

 

[ProVobis]

I’d pick a monarchy over a republic any day!

Officially the U.K.'s government is a constitutional monarcy.

royal.gov.uk/MonarchUK/HowtheMonarchyworks/Whatisconstitutionalmonarchy.aspx

 

[ProVobis]

Either questionable or different. But most certainly it was used universally throughout the British Empire and led to the phrase, God Save The Queen."

Interestingly enough, the Douay-Confraternity Edition also has it “God Save The King.” (1 Samuel = 1 Kings in this edition, another point of contention, I imagine.) The more modern RSV has it “Long Live the King.”

Well, no one said translations were infallible. Too bad they sometimes become national slogans.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

We also say “Long live the Queen!”

There was one fellow here who always responded to “God Save The Queen” with “Long may she reign over us!”

He was very scrupulous about this response so during a meeting I kept saying the former just to see how long he could keep it up . . .

He didn’t flinch . . .

Alex

 

[ProVobis]

We also say “Long live the Queen!”

There was one fellow here who always responded to “God Save The Queen” with “Long may she reign over us!”

He was very scrupulous about this response so during a meeting I kept saying the former just to see how long he could keep it up . . .

He didn’t flinch . . .

Alex

Either way, it’s a far cry (more dynamic translation?) from the literal translation of Vivat rex: “Let the King live.” Or Queen, if it’s more applicable.

 

[blackrobe]

Interesting question. I used to do historical reenactment as an 18th century Crown Forces soldier. Part of my persona was being secretly Catholic. A soldier in that position would not only have had to sing God Save, but also participate in all C of E observances and rituals. When singing God Save the King, I imagined that I was secretly praying that God turn the King’s heart to repentance.

AMDG
jsa

 

[LoyalViews]

Canuck, I’m American obviously, but this might interest you:
My 1962 Missal includes a “Prayer for the Sovereign” which apparently was said or sung in the United Kingdom after High Masses pre-Vatican II.

**V. O Lord, save N., our king (queen)
R. And hear us in the day when we shall call upon thee.

Let us pray**
Almighty God, we pray for thy servant N., our king (queen) now by thy mercy reigning over us. Adorn him (her) yet more with every virtue, remove all evil from his (her) path and vanquish his (her) enemies; that with the queen his consort (with her consort) and all the royal family he (she) may come at last in grace to thee, who art the way, the truth and the life. Through Christ our Lord. R. Amen.

That’s beautiful I think it’s in mine, too ! What one do you have?

 

[ProVobis]

Canuck, I’m American obviously, but this might interest you:
My 1962 Missal includes a “Prayer for the Sovereign” which apparently was said or sung in the United Kingdom after High Masses pre-Vatican II.

**V. O Lord, save N., our king (queen)
R. And hear us in the day when we shall call upon thee.

Let us pray**
Almighty God, we pray for thy servant N., our king (queen) now by thy mercy reigning over us. Adorn him (her) yet more with every virtue, remove all evil from his (her) path and vanquish his (her) enemies; that with the queen his consort (with her consort) and all the royal family he (she) may come at last in grace to thee, who art the way, the truth and the life. Through Christ our Lord. R. Amen.

Would there be a Latin basis for this in your missal?

 

[barb_finnegan]

Officially the U.K.'s government is a constitutional monarcy.

royal.gov.uk/MonarchUK/HowtheMonarchyworks/Whatisconstitutionalmonarchy.aspx

You are correct-it is a constitutional monarchy.

Even I know that-and I’m a Yank!

 

[MarineGuy]

Would there be a Latin basis for this in your missal?

Yes. The Latin version isn’t in the missal I’m quoting from but I know it is included in the daily missals published by Baronius Press and Angelus Press. If I can find my other missal, I’ll dig it out and post it. This one states that “in England, Scotland, Wales, and some other countries under the British Crown” the prayer is “said or sung in Latin or the people’s tongue after the principle Mass on Sundays.”

P.S. The missal I took this prayer from is The Layman’s Missal, Burns & Oates.

 

[ProVobis]

Yes. The Latin version isn’t in the missal I’m quoting from but I know it is included in the daily missals published by Baronius Press and Angelus Press. If I can find my other missal, I’ll dig it out and post it. This one states that “in England, Scotland, Wales, and some other countries under the British Crown” the prayer is “said or sung in Latin or the people’s tongue after the principle Mass on Sundays.”

P.S. The missal I took this prayer from is The Layman’s Missal, Burns & Oates.

Thanks. I was just curious. My 1962 Angelus has as a collect for a Votive Mass for a King:

Quaesumus omnipotens Deus: ut famulus tuus N., rex (regina) noster, qui tua miseratione suscepit regni gubernacular, virtutum etiam ominium percipiat incrementa, quibus decenter ornatus, et vitiorum monstra devitare, et ad te, qui via, veritas, et vita es, gratiosus valeat pervenire. Per Dominum nostrum.

Unofficial translation: (poor in my opinion)

We beseech Thee, O almighty God, that Thy servant N., our King (Queen), who by Thy mercy has undertaken the government of this realm, may advance in all virtues; that being meetly adorned therewith, he (she) may be able to avoid the enormity of sins and to come to Thee, Who art the way, the truth, and the life. Through Our Lord.

 

[MarineGuy]

Thanks. I was just curious. My 1962 Angelus has as a collect for a Votive Mass for a King:

Quaesumus omnipotens Deus: ut famulus tuus N., rex (regina) noster, qui tua miseratione suscepit regni gubernacular, virtutum etiam ominium percipiat incrementa, quibus decenter ornatus, et vitiorum monstra devitare, et ad te, qui via, veritas, et vita es, gratiosus valeat pervenire. Per Dominum nostrum.

Unofficial translation: (poor in my opinion)

We beseech Thee, O almighty God, that Thy servant N., our King (Queen), who by Thy mercy has undertaken the government of this realm, may advance in all virtues; that being meetly adorned therewith, he (she) may be able to avoid the enormity of sins and to come to Thee, Who art the way, the truth, and the life. Through Our Lord.

ProVobis, your Angelus Press missal probably contains the prayer for the British monarch, unless they omitted it in a later printing. Check it out, it should be after the ordinary of the Mass, right after the St. Michael prayer & the other prayers said at the end of a Low Mass.

 

[ProVobis]

ProVobis, your Angelus Press missal probably contains the prayer for the British monarch, unless they omitted it in a later printing. Check it out, it should be after the ordinary of the Mass, right after the St. Michael prayer & the other prayers said at the end of a Low Mass.

Okay, I checked it out and yes, it’s there. Thanks. Good instructions.

Here’s the Latin Versicle: “Domine, salvum (-am) fac Regem nostrum (Reginam nostram)”
Response: “Et exaudi nos in die, qua invocaverimus te.”

“(O) Lord, save our King (Queen)” like “give salvation to”
“And hear us in the day when we call upon Thee.”