God tells us in His written word that Jesus was born of a virgin, He didn't tell us a sinless virgin

[emeraldisle]

God clearly tells us in His written word that Jesus would be born of a virgin, He didn’t tell us that Jesus would be born of a sinless virgin.

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.

Isaiah 7: 14

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[notsmart]

God clearly tells us in His written word that Jesus would be born of a virgin, He didn’t tell us that Jesus would be born of a sinless virgin.

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.

Isaiah 7: 14

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maybe you can help me out. I can’t find a place in the bible where anyone gets the idea they can pray to the holy spirit. I just must have missed an example in the bible because I admit I have not memorized it. Now, if I can’t find it in there, does this mean I can no longer believe its okay to pray to the holy spirit?

 

[emeraldisle]

maybe you can help me out. I can’t find a place in the bible where anyone gets the idea they can pray to the holy spirit. I just must have missed an example in the bible because I admit I have not memorized it. Now, if I can’t find it in there, does this mean I can no longer believe its okay to pray to the holy spirit?

The RCC tradition is to pray to Mary not the Holy Spirit. Jesus teaches us to pray to the Father, see Matt 6.

But you are just trying to derail this thread from the fact that God tells us in His written word that Mary was a virgin, He didn’t tell us that she was a sinless virgin.

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.

Isaiah 7: 14

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[notsmart]

The RCC tradition is to pray to Mary not the Holy Spirit.

And all generations shall call me blessed.
(said by Mary)

I call her blessed.

 

[mark_a]

The RCC tradition is to pray to Mary not the Holy Spirit.

Say what?

By the way, you may refer to us as CC, since the ECC’s are very much Catholic. We wouldn’t want to exclude them, its not polite.

 

[emeraldisle]

My point is the bible remains silent on so many things, many things even you likely do without an explicit mention of them in the bible. So, it’s not a derail. I am asking you to hold to the same standard you seem to expect from others

 

[notsmart]

“You are obviously missing my point, God tells us Jesus was born of a virgin(no silence) but God doesn’t tell us that Jesus would be born of a sinless virgin because He wasn’t. God isn’t silent on this issue He clearly tells us Jesus was born of a virgin and He clearly tells us all of humanity is sinful and this includes the virgin who gave birth to Jesus.”

I think I understood you correctly.
The bible is silent about Mary’s sinlessness. You keep insisting that since its not mentioned in the bible that she is, then she must have been one who was not sinless.
I have already read protestant apologetics on this topic, and the disservice to scripture they commit in this case.

 

[emeraldisle]

I think I understood you correctly.
The bible is silent about Mary’s sinlessness. You keep insisting that since its not mentioned in the bible that she is, then she must have been one who was not sinless.
I have already read protestant apologetics on this topic, and the disservice to scripture they commit in this case.

God tells us in His word that Jesus would be born of a virgin and He tells us this virgin was called Mary. God tells us all of humanity is sinful, is Mary part of sinful humanity. Maybe you believe Mary isn’t a human being?? Now before you say what about Jesus, well God tells us in His word that He was sinless.

For even hereunto were you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 1Peter 2:21-22

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[notsmart]

Can you show me those verses again that show “all” humanity sinful. Lets take another look at them carefully.

 

[emeraldisle]

Can you show me those verses again that show “all” humanity sinful. Lets take another look at them carefully.

Ive read all the RCC arguments against Gods Truth that all of humanity is sinful. Ive yet to see any evidence from Gods written word that proves that Mary was sinless. However there is plenty of evidence that proves Mary was a human and so she was part of sinful humanity.

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[ConallCernach]

Ive read all the RCC arguments against Gods Truth that all of humanity is sinful. Ive yet to see any evidence from Gods written word that proves that Mary was sinless. However there is plenty of evidence that proves Mary was a human and so she was part of sinful humanity.

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Now the really big questions are these:
Where in the Bible does it state that everything must be found in the Bible?

AND here’s a biggie:
**How many people have you killed for not going to church on Saturday? **

Hopefully you can abandon this sola scriptura heresy so we can all get on with our lives.

-Conall Cernach

 

[exoflare]

Wow that’s it I’m convinced.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Catholics all agree that Mary, like all of us, needed a savior.

But He saved her before she was born.
You say, “Where is that in the Bible?” We say, “Please show us the Bible verse which says that all that Jesus did and taught is given to us in the bible. And while you’re at it, please show the Scripture that says that Jesus not only instituted a bible, but gave it, in Scripture, its table of contents, and also the authority to interpret itself.”

As for the ‘all are sinful’ --well, Jesus was a man. Therefore, by your logic of ‘all included’, Jesus is sinful too. If he wasn’t, then he wasn’t a man, as ‘all are sinful’ --by your logic.

Also, all those children born with developmental disabilities. . .well hey, they’re sinful too. Because they’re human. By your logic. They may not have the capacity to understand but I guess since all are sinners, the 5 year old born with severe Down syndrome or the 10 year old with trisomy 21 is a sinful, sinful soul.

But if you take the trouble to read Scripture on “all have sinned” you see something amazing. In the same Scripture that God tells us, in Psalm 14:

All have left the right path, depraved, every one: there is not a good man left, no, not even one.

(looks like 'all are sinful, right?")

He immediately follows with this:

“Will the evildoers not understand? They eat up my people as though they were eating bread: they never pray to the Lord. See how they tremble with fear, without cause for fear: for God is with the just. You may mock the poor man’s hope, but his refuge is the Lord.”

Whoa, Nelly! If ‘all are depraved’. . .then who is God talking about as “my people” being eaten by evildoers? It surely to goodness looks as though the "all are depraved’ is not saying that all humanity is depraved, but that all the evildoers are depraved.

But when people ‘cherry pick’ and take out of context, they get confused.

 

[guanophore]

The RCC tradition is to pray to Mary not the Holy Spirit.

There are several errors in this very short statement. For one thing, prayer to Mary is not “Roman” it is Apostolic, and therefore, shared by all the Catholic, Orthodox, and oriental churches that were founded by Apostles. Second, Tradition is not “Roman” either, and yes, it is the practice of those who received the Apostolic teaching to pray to all the Holy Ones that have gone on before us.

Third, “not the HS” is detraction. The Catholic Church is the one who recognized, defined, and defended the person of the HS, and has not stopped praying with and through the HS from the day the HS was given. What motivates you to spread such lies?

Jesus teaches us to pray to the Father, see Matt 6.

But you are just trying to derail this thread from the fact that God tells us in His written word that Mary was a virgin, He didn’t tell us that she was a sinless virgin.

If anyone is “derailing”, I think it is one who is spreading falsehoods not related to the topic!

The scripture must be understood in the light of the context in which it was written. It was written by, for, and about Catholics, and that is why everything in it is consistent with Catholic Teaching.

 

[emeraldisle]

Now the really big questions are these:
Where in the Bible does it state that everything must be found in the Bible?

AND here’s a biggie:
**How many people have you killed for not going to church on Saturday? **

Hopefully you can abandon this sola scriptura heresy so we can all get on with our lives.

-Conall Cernach

God clearly tells us in His written word that all of humanity is sinful and Mary is part of this sinful humanity. So how can anyone claim Mary is sinless when God has clearly told us she is part of sinful humanity. Yes Jesus was part of sinful humanity but He was sinless and we know this because God has told us so in His written word.

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[ConallCernach]

God clearly tells us in His written word that all of humanity is sinful and Mary is part of this sinful humanity. So how can anyone claim Mary is sinless when God has clearly told us she is part of sinful humanity. Yes Jesus was part of sinful humanity but He was sinless and we know this because God has told us so in His written word.

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Alrighty, let’s get this down to business then.

Firstly, it was PAUL that wrote down what you are referring to:
“all have sinned”
Next, you need to have the ability to reason in order to have committed actual sin, the age of reason is 7, so a child beneath that has not committed sin because they have not reached the age of reason. The same with people suffering from hard mental illnesses.

Or do you believe that all children go to Hell?

 

[Nickkname]

God clearly tells us in His written word that Jesus would be born of a virgin, He didn’t tell us that Jesus would be born of a sinless virgin.

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.

Isaiah 7: 14

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You forget: The archangel Gabriel. God spoke to Mary through His angel, calling her “full of grace”. So yes He did tell us that Jesus was born of an Immaculate Virgin.

 

[guanophore]

You are obviously missing my point,

Think that might be a result of your blatant misrepresentation of the Catholic faith?

God tells us Jesus was born of a virgin(no silence) but God doesn’t tell us that Jesus would be born of a sinless virgin because He wasn’t. God isn’t silent on this issue He clearly tells us Jesus was born of a virgin and He clearly tells us all of humanity is sinful and this includes the virgin who gave birth to Jesus.

what is your goal here? do you hope to pursuade Catholics that what was handed down to us is “false”?

I agree, Mary is so blessed to be given the privilege of giving birth to the blessed Lord Jesus.

But, as Jesus said, she is even more blessed because she heard the word of God, and did it.

 

[exoflare]

Fair warning Conall, I don’t think he’s actually considering your responses before replying to them. Notice how the OP’s last reply didn’t even address the point you brought up? This is fairly common practice to those who spout the fundamentalist talking points. If they were actually trying to reason with you (rather than carry on with a monologue), they’d quickly realize just how flawed their initial premise was in the first place.

 

[emeraldisle]

Alrighty, let’s get this down to business then.

Firstly, it was PAUL that wrote down what you are referring to:
“all have sinned”
Next, you need to have the ability to reason in order to have committed actual sin, the age of reason is 7, so a child beneath that has not committed sin because they have not reached the age of reason. The same with people suffering from hard mental illnesses.

Or do you believe that all children go to Hell?

Was Mary a perpetual child??

Was Mary suffering from a hard mental illness??

The fact is that Mary was part of sinful humanity and God clearly tells us in His written word that all of humanity is sinful.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

and God clearly tells us in His written word that Jesus was sinless although He was part of sinful humanity.

For even hereunto were you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 1Peter 2:21-22

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