God the Omniscient

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Riseof_Rome

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We know God intended to create a world without sin. He had a plan for a perfect world when He created it. But, to me I cannot help but notice the inherent paradox with this because there *is *sin. Why would God have any plan for a sinless world if, being omniscient, He knew there would be sin after the fall of Adam and Eve? I mean if you know something is guaranteed to happen, which is the case if you are omniscient, why attempt to plan on something other then the inevitable to happen? Is my logic flawed?
 
Riseof_Rome said:
We know God intended to create a world without sin. He had a plan for a perfect world when He created it. But, to me I cannot help but notice the inherent paradox with this because there *is *sin. Why would God have any plan for a sinless world if, being omniscient, He knew there would be sin after the fall of Adam and Eve? I mean if you know something is guaranteed to happen, which is the case if you are omniscient, why attempt to plan on something other then the inevitable to happen? Is my logic flawed?
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God wants us to Love Him. How many people love something that they get for free. Don’t you love things that you need to sacrifice for?
 
Riseof_Rome said:
We know God intended to create a world without sin. He had a plan for a perfect world when He created it. But, to me I cannot help but notice the inherent paradox with this because there *is *sin. Why would God have any plan for a sinless world if, being omniscient, He knew there would be sin after the fall of Adam and Eve? I mean if you know something is guaranteed to happen, which is the case if you are omniscient, why attempt to plan on something other then the inevitable to happen? Is my logic flawed?
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Yes, your logic is flawed. God did not “intend to create a world without sin” - He created a world without sin! But if there would never be sin, then God would have created the world “perfect”. But He didn’t; He created it “very good”. “The new heavens and the new earth” will be perfect. God bless.
 
God created us so that we might love Him and be united with Him. In order to love a person has to have free will. Without that freedom there is no love. To have freedom you have to have real choices, i.e. the possibility of disobeying God and the possibility of obeying Him must both exist. The ability to love, which requires freedom, is so important that God allows the possibility of turning away from Him.

God in His infinite wisdom saw that mankind would fall, but He also knew (or chose) that He would redeem mankind. He saw that the triumph, glory, and manifestation of His Love would be so much greater in redeeming fallen mankind than if there was no need of redemption at all. His wisdom and Love are truly beyond us. He loves us so much that He created us knowing we’d reject Him and that He’d redeem us. As we pray at Easter “Oh happy fault, oh necessary sin of Adam, which merited for us so great a Savior!”
 
I’m not sure I stated exactly what it is my question was. Sin exists as a result of free will. We all know this. And yes, God intended for there to be a world without sin, we corrupted it. So having said that, why would God have intended to create a world without sin if He, being omniscient, *knew *there would inevitably be sin? It is a doctrine of our faith that God intended the world to be perfect, as was previously stated by someone else.

But, how could God have even intended this if at the same time He knew there would be sin? The only explanation I see is that God did not know there would be sin, he was merely hoping we would make the right choice and went to plan B when we corrupted it. But this is a grave heresy because God is omniscient, meaning he knew exactly what would happen with Adam and Eve. It is like saying He saw two possible outcomes in the instance of Adam and Eve, but at the same time He knew which outcome would prevail. It is a paradox.

Someone please prove enlighten me if you can.
 
Perhaps your difficulty is that you are limiting God’s knowledge to human standards.

God does not operate, as we do, within ‘time’. We experience past, present and future and so at any given moment we have experienced the past, are experiencing the present, and anticipate the future.

But God exists in an eternal now. He didn’t, when He created the world, create it at point A (which immediately became God’s past), and look to the fall of Adam and Eve as being in some ‘future’. That’s where you’re making your error, in confining God’s knowledge to the purely ‘temporal’ experiences of His creations.
 
God can see two possible outcomes and still know which will occur. That doesn’t mean He determines the outcome, as in the case of our free choice. He is outside of time, to Him all times are present. He willed to create a good world with free people. Adam and Eve rejected the good and so entered evil, which is really the absence of the good that is supposed to be there.

I think maybe you are trying to put an infinite God into human terms, and we just can’t wrap our minds or words completely around Him.
 
Riseof Rome,

There is mystery in the fact that an all good and all powerful God allows evil (sin), and knows from eternity that it will occur. Don’t think you will completely understand it before you die. But you can come to some better understanding.

God only allows evil for a greater good. He creates men and gives them freedom to choose Him or what is from Him (good) or what is not from Him (evil). This freedom (to freely do good, to love God freely as God loves Himself) is a greater good than no freedom and no chance to do evil. … When you let your child move out, you do so knowing (with near certainty) that your child will probably make mistakes and do wrong in life. Yet you want your child to have freedom and so let him go.

The crucifixion of Our Lord was the worst evil in the world, but out of it God brought the greatest good. Indeed, the original sin of Adam (and all of us) is called (as someone in this thread noted) “Oh happy fault” (felix culpa) because out of it came our greatest good; not only our Redemption but also God becoming one of us and showing us His love in the greatest imaginable way. God’s goodness answered our evil, and always does for those who turn to Him asking forgiveness. " To them that love God, all things work together unto good" Rom. 8 28.

It is easy to think (at the back of your mind) “well I know enough about good and evil and freedom and even what it means to be “outside of time”, and if I were God I would have given them a different kind of free will where they would never have a chance to turn against Me”. The main answer to this is that (thank God!) we are not God. We must trust to His wisdom, understand as much as we can, and know that once we are in heaven we will fully see the light.
 
Hmm…maybe I am just putting God into human standards, but it is still a logical paradox to see two possible outcomes yet know which one is the real one. It defeats the point of being omniscient. Why bother wasting your time knowing something “could” happen but never, ever will? As in the case of Adam and Eve.

Here is my thought process:

-God is omniscient
-Omniscient means knowing everything, past, present, and future.
-God creates everything and intends it to be completely without sin
-God creates man and gives us free will out of love
-Man abuses free will and introduces sin into creation
-God knew this would happen, being omniscient

Conclusion: Why would God even bother to intend to create a universe without sin if He knew it would inevitably happen. Why didn’t He just say “I know there will be sin, eventually. So why should I bother creating something with the mindset of ‘I hope they won’t sin’ if I know for a fact they will.” It is false hope.

It’s like saying I know I will die if I jump in front of this moving train, but I will do it anyway and hope for the best.

Keep in mind God never “hopes” something will or won’t happen, because He already knows the end result.

I am honestly not trying to be stubborn, this has just been nagging at me all day.
 
Rise of Rome, you explained your question just fine the first time.
I wonder the same thing, and all this talk about God being outside time, God
being too infinite to understand, God knows best, etc, are inadequate answers.
But while I’m wondering, I think of this: I have a boy.
There’s nothing in this world that would make me want to give him up to cruel
torturers, but God did. God has something planned that is so wonderful, so
incredible, so magnificent, there is no way we can know what it is. He is creating
love. When it’s finished, it will be the most powerful, wonderful, magnificent thing
possible, and part of it will be in us.
 
Riseof_Rome said:
Hmm…maybe I am just putting God into human standards, but it is still a logical paradox to see two possible outcomes yet know which one is the real one. It defeats the point of being omniscient. Why bother wasting your time knowing something “could” happen but never, ever will? As in the case of Adam and Eve.

Here is my thought process:

-God is omniscient
-Omniscient means knowing everything, past, present, and future.
-God creates everything and intends it to be completely without sin
-God creates man and gives us free will out of love
-Man abuses free will and introduces sin into creation
-God knew this would happen, being omniscient

Conclusion: Why would God even bother to intend to create a universe without sin if He knew it would inevitably happen. Why didn’t He just say “I know there will be sin, eventually. So why should I bother creating something with the mindset of ‘I hope they won’t sin’ if I know for a fact they will.” It is false hope.

It’s like saying I know I will die if I jump in front of this moving train, but I will do it anyway and hope for the best.

Keep in mind God never “hopes” something will or won’t happen, because He already knows the end result.

I am honestly not trying to be stubborn, this has just been nagging at me all day.
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“God intends a world without sin” means He commands and made it possible for any man not to sin. At the same time, God intentionally PERMITS men to sin (not gives His OK, but doesn’t stop them) and knows that they will.

God only permits evil for a greater good. Christ came to earth knowing He would be crucified. But He knew God would bring the greatest good out of the worst evil. God doesn’t “hope for the best”, He causes it, for He is God. Evil is permitted but doesn’t stand in His way - even if we can’t always see it. (See my previous post)
 
I guess this is one of those things that may just be better understood in the presence of our Lord! 😃
 
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