God, then, God and creation!

[Bahman]

I am very puzzled with using words “then” in the title since that requires defining some kind of time. I mean there is state of being at which there is only God and there is a state of being at which there is God and creation (based on what is reported on religious literature). This means that one state of being should occur after other meaning that we have a sequence of states of being. This however and unfortunately put God in this picture which some sort of time is involved in it!

 

[runningdude]

But God created time; thus the very notion of a temporal sequence of events is also a work of God.

 

[fhansen]

But God created time; thus the very notion of a temporal sequence of events is also a work of God.

Yes, and since there could be no time-no moment-in eternity when God created time, as if “now” time doesn’t exist, but “then” time does exist, it remains a mystery just “when” God created.;

 

[Bahman]

But God created time; thus the very notion of a temporal sequence of events is also a work of God.

But time could not be created without creating the things. Moreover things need degree of freedom (dimensions) to move otherwise nothing changes. This means things, dimensions and time should be created together.

Your argument however doesn’t resolve the problem that I raised since God cannot be a part of its own creation. I mean you cannot have two different states, first solely God and second God and creation without embedding God in the state of temporal. But having God in state of temporal means that God is a part of its own creation which is paradoxical.

 

[Bahman]

Yes, and since there could be no time-no moment-in eternity when God created time, as if “now” time doesn’t exist, but “then” time does exist, it remains a mystery just “when” God created.;

That doesn’t resolve the problem: God, then God and time; then follow the argument. Please also read post #4 to see what I mean.

This also means that God has to create time prime before creating time which leads to infinite regression.

 

[bzkoss236]

What about God’s creation being a part of him?

If God is said to be omnipresent, wouldn’t that mean that his creation exists within himself, since he is everywhere?

One phrase that I’ve often heard is that the universe exists within the mind of God. This isn’t strictly Church teaching, but I don’t see it conflicting with it either.

 

[davidv]

That doesn’t resolve the problem: God, then God and time; then follow the argument. Please also read post #4 to see what I mean.

This also means that God has to create time prime before creating time which leads to infinite regression.

Maybe time isn’t a created thing?

 

[bzkoss236]

Maybe time isn’t a created thing?

But it is. Space-time (comprising of both space and time) were created together at the beginning of the universe.

If time was not created, then that would be something to which God is bound, which would mean that something is beyond God, which would make God not actually God. Therefore, time was created.

 

[Bahman]

What about God’s creation being a part of him?
Or why can’t he?

How then God could be permanently in state of timeless then? This problem could not be resolved unless God constantly moves in and out of timeless state which is paradoxical as well since one state of being comes after another.

 

[Bahman]

But it is. Space-time (comprising of both space and time) were created together at the beginning of the universe.

The problem is not resolvable unless we assume that the creation is is a mixture of time, time prime… until the edge of madness (eternity)… all created at the same instance. I don’t even understand what instant means in the last sentence. God and Creation are simply beyond comprehension.

 

[bzkoss236]

God and Creation are simply beyond comprehension.

Beyond which what has been revealed, yes.

 

[Bahman]

Beyond which what has been revealed, yes.

Or maybe the concept of creation is false.

 

[fhansen]

That doesn’t resolve the problem: God, then God and time; then follow the argument. Please also read post #4 to see what I mean.

This also means that God has to create time prime before creating time which leads to infinite regression.

I wasn’t trying to solve the problem. I was making a comment about a different problem. As to yours, I don’t know God’s capabilities so well-what His limitations might be. I only assume that, if He created time, He can deal with it as any creator can deal with a creation that is necessarily inferior to himself, i.e. He made all there is, including time, not the other way around.

 

[Bahman]

I wasn’t trying to solve the problem. I was making a comment about a different problem. As to yours, I don’t know God’s capabilities so well-what His limitations might be. I only assume that, if He created time, He can deal with it as any creator can deal with a creation that is necessarily inferior to himself, i.e. He made all there is, including time, not the other way around.

To me there are Self (God), selves, substance (illusion) and concepts that build our world. Time is the result of changes in substance. Self, selves and concepts are eternal. Self and selves could only interact through substance which is in state of temporal since experiencing other beings require changes. Through this process the concepts can be translated and comprehended by selves as it is designed and known by Self.

 

[runningdude]

But time could not be created without creating the things. Moreover things need degree of freedom (dimensions) to move otherwise nothing changes. This means things, dimensions and time should be created together.

Your argument however doesn’t resolve the problem that I raised since God cannot be a part of its own creation. I mean you cannot have two different states, first solely God and second God and creation without embedding God in the state of temporal. But having God in state of temporal means that God is a part of its own creation which is paradoxical.

Why can’t you have two “different states”. Temporally, were are taught that “in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”. As far as time, space and things are concerned, there has only been one state. “Before” this, is beyond our comprehension and measurement.

We do know that the Trinity existed, and we know they always intended for creation to occur, that they knew the Angels that they begot, they knew which Angels would fall, which men would choose salvation. We know this because we know God has perfect knowledge; that God is outside of time and creation, and see every moment equally.

 

[Bahman]

Why can’t you have two “different states”.

First we need two different states to explain what is written in religious literature as you mentioned. These two state however gives rise to a state of temporal one follow another one. The first state is state of God being, and the second state God and creation being. We believe that God is in state of timeless and cannot be in state of temporal which is contradictory with the picture that is provided in religious literature.

 

[Qoeleth]

Due to habits of thinking, we assume God is ‘outside’ of time, or that, as someone said ‘God created time’.

But time is not a ‘thing’ or an object. It is a conceptual tool to help describe a type of relationship of occurrences to each other. We can say “outside of time”, but that doesn’t really make sense. It seems absurd to say God ‘created time.’ It is like saying God created ‘is’ or God created ‘and’.

According to the Bible, God created Heaven and Earth, and evening and morning came, the first day, etc. So God was operating in time all along.

I am really arguing for this position from a strong conviction- but it is perfectly possible, isn’t it?

 

[Bahman]

Due to habits of thinking, we assume God is ‘outside’ of time, or that, as someone said ‘God created time’.

But time is not a ‘thing’ or an object. It is a conceptual tool to help describe a type of relationship of occurrences to each other. We can say “outside of time”, but that doesn’t really make sense. It seems absurd to say God ‘created time.’ It is like saying God created ‘is’ or God created ‘and’.

According to the Bible, God created Heaven and Earth, and evening and morning came, the first day, etc. So God was operating in time all along.

I am really arguing for this position from a strong conviction- but it is perfectly possible, isn’t it?

This is against the idea that God is in state of timeless. How God could knows future if you embed it in state of time?

 

[Linusthe2nd]

But time could not be created without creating the things. Moreover things need degree of freedom (dimensions) to move otherwise nothing changes. This means things, dimensions and time should be created together.

Your argument however doesn’t resolve the problem that I raised since God cannot be a part of its own creation. I mean you cannot have two different states, first solely God and second God and creation without embedding God in the state of temporal. But having God in state of temporal means that God is a part of its own creation which is paradoxical.

The Catholic Church teaches and has always taught that God is transcendent to his creation but at the same time works most intimately within each of the beings he created causing it to be, to move, and to live ( if we consider living creatures). When he created creatures, time entered in, not as a being but as a condition of being, the same with space, it is a condition of being. Time is the measure of our existence and space is what contains us. We are material, limited, moving beings, we require time and space as conditions of existence.

So yes, time and space arose with the creation of creatures, at the same moment- the first moment.

God, still in his eternal now, moves and operates all around and in his creatures, which are subject to time.

There is no contradiction, God is still in his eternity and we are in our time.

Linus2nd

 

[Linusthe2nd]

How then God could be permanently in state of timeless then? This problem could not be resolved unless God constantly moves in and out of timeless state which is paradoxical as well since one state of being comes after another.

God, while eternal and timeless, operates within the conditions in which he created his creatures. There is no contradiction in this. God " carries " his eternity with him wherever he operates and we carry our time and space with us wherever we operate.

Linus2nd