Indeed, God is beyond comprehension. That does not mean that we can know nothing about him, it means that we comprehend very little. I see no problem with creation. True, we cannot understand how God did it, nor can we understand how he sustains it. But we can understand that what it is, and we can understand the conditions of time and space in which we exist. I don’t see a problem here.The problem is not resolvable unless we assume that the creation is is a mixture of time, time prime… until the edge of madness (eternity)… all created at the same instance. I don’t even understand what instant means in the last sentence. God and Creation are simply beyond comprehension.
It is not false. How do you suppose we got here? We certainly didn’t create ourselves, the universe didn’t create itself. The only conclusion is the God created it all. We accept it, we are not expected to understand it and shouldn’t even try, it is beyond comprehension. To insist on understanding it is to insist on doing something which is beyond human ability. It could, indeed, drive one mad.Or maybe the concept of creation is false.
Certainly novel ideas, but absolutely wrong. Neither God, nor we, nor the universe of material creatures are concepts. All are real beings. Except God is the Pure, Eternal, All Powerful, All Intelligent, All Good, Eternal One. We are the creatures he made to show forth his Glory. Again, you expect to understand too much. God is Ineffable, you cannot understand him, nor why he has done what he has done - you are not God. Only God knows exactly the why or the how of these things.To me there are Self (God), selves, substance (illusion) and concepts that build our world. Time is the result of changes in substance. Self, selves and concepts are eternal. Self and selves could only interact through substance which is in state of temporal since experiencing other beings require changes. Through this process the concepts can be translated and comprehended by selves as it is designed and known by Self.
Correct. " Before creation " is not only beyond comprehension, it is meaningless. There was no " before creation. " Time and space and creatures arose at the unique, first moment. We cannot comprehend anything prior to that moment because there is nothing to give it meaning. There is no " before. " That is one of the mysteries of creation.Why can’t you have two “different states”. Temporally, were are taught that “in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”. As far as time, space and things are concerned, there has only been one state. “Before” this, is beyond our comprehension and measurement.
We do know that the Trinity existed, and we know they always intended for creation to occur, that they knew the Angels that they begot, they knew which Angels would fall, which men would choose salvation. We know this because we know God has perfect knowledge; that God is outside of time and creation, and see every moment equally.
You are envisioning things as a sequence. This is wrong. The eternal and the time limited coexist. God is Sprit, he can be wherever he wishes without mingling with his creatures as I explained above. Think of it like this, eternity surrounds time ( this is a metaphore, I am not speaking metaphysicaly or theologically).First we need two different states to explain what is written in religious literature as you mentioned. These two state however gives rise to a state of temporal one follow another one. The first state is state of God being, and the second state God and creation being. We believe that God is in state of timeless and cannot be in state of temporal which is contradictory with the picture that is provided in religious literature.
See my posts above and see if they make sense to you. You are correct but I think I may have given a more full explanation.Due to habits of thinking, we assume God is ‘outside’ of time, or that, as someone said ‘God created time’.
But time is not a ‘thing’ or an object. It is a conceptual tool to help describe a type of relationship of occurrences to each other. We can say “outside of time”, but that doesn’t really make sense. It seems absurd to say God ‘created time.’ It is like saying God created ‘is’ or God created ‘and’.
According to the Bible, God created Heaven and Earth, and evening and morning came, the first day, etc. So God was operating in time all along.
I am really arguing for this position from a strong conviction- but it is perfectly possible, isn’t it?
We all know something of the future, to varying degrees of accuracy and certainty. We know that if we drop something, it will fall towards the ground, that the Sun will rise tomorrow, etc. Now, if God is much more intelligent and better informed than us, in principle, he could simply know the future by the same process (to an infinitely greater degree) by which we have an idea of the future.This is against the idea that God is in state of timeless. How God could knows future if you embed it in state of time?
Things are not false because they are mysteries.Or maybe the concept of creation is false.
Time is ultimately the comparison of one thing to another. Before creation, there were no physical things, thus nothing to compare nothing to (God, being Divine, is not a “thing”.)First we need two different states to explain what is written in religious literature as you mentioned. These two state however gives rise to a state of temporal one follow another one. The first state is state of God being, and the second state God and creation being. We believe that God is in state of timeless and cannot be in state of temporal which is contradictory with the picture that is provided in religious literature.
What do you mean with move and operates around? This acts require changes not only in state of being but also in imposed in time.The Catholic Church teaches and has always taught that God is transcendent to his creation but at the same time works most intimately within each of the beings he created causing it to be, to move, and to live ( if we consider living creatures). When he created creatures, time entered in, not as a being but as a condition of being, the same with space, it is a condition of being. Time is the measure of our existence and space is what contains us. We are material, limited, moving beings, we require time and space as conditions of existence.
So yes, time and space arose with the creation of creatures, at the same moment- the first moment.
God, still in his eternal now, moves and operates all around and in his creatures, which are subject to time.
There is no contradiction, God is still in his eternity and we are in our time.
Linus2nd
I didn’t mean that we are concepts. I only said that “there are Self (God), selves (we), substance (illusion) and concepts that build our world”.Certainly novel ideas, but absolutely wrong. Neither God, nor we, nor the universe of material creatures are concepts. All are real beings. Except God is the Pure, Eternal, All Powerful, All Intelligent, All Good, Eternal One. We are the creatures he made to show forth his Glory. Again, you expect to understand too much. God is Ineffable, you cannot understand him, nor why he has done what he has done - you are not God. Only God knows exactly the why or the how of these things.
It is for us to admire and give him Praise, Worship, and Glory.
Linus2nd
First do you mean that God also in trap of time or it Created the time?We all know something of the future, to varying degrees of accuracy and certainty. We know that if we drop something, it will fall towards the ground, that the Sun will rise tomorrow, etc. Now, if God is much more intelligent and better informed than us, in principle, he could simply know the future by the same process (to an infinitely greater degree) by which we have an idea of the future.
Are we really sure God is in a state of timelessness? Does it even make sense to ‘exist’ in timelessness- we can imagine some kind of ‘frozen state’, but such a state doesn’t seem to be particularly desirable or blessed. If Heaven is like that, being frozen in a moment, it hardly differs from being stone dead.
Now Scripture says that to God a thousand years are like a watch in the night- but, in fact, that doesn’t imply timelessness, just immense (or infinite) duration and patience.
Scripture tells us that God actually ‘does’ things, which seems to exclude timelessness.
God is certainly changless in essence, and of infinite duration, and, because of His great wisdom and omniscience, able to recall the past and to foresee the future. But to place Him outside of time seems to rob Him of meaningful existence at all. It turn Him into a ‘metaphysical concept’ instead of one who knows and loves us- the God of Aristotle, rather than the God of Moses.
I feel that the statement “God created time” is based on a reification of time. ‘Time’ is not a thing or a being. We know what it is, but can’t easily define it. ‘Time’ is a kind of conceptual framework. It is not something which is be ‘made’ by God or anyone.First do you mean that God also in trap of time or it Created the time?
Second, if God is creator of time then it has to be in state of timeless.
I partially agree with what you said that state of knowledge of God changes as we do things and time passes.
Our understanding of the absolute truth however is false if accept that the absolute truth is mysterious.Things are not false because they are mysteries.
You have to stop thinking about movement and change when thinking about what God " does. " We speak and think in the only manner open to us. To God, to think and will and do and exist eternally is simply to be. We cannot comprehend that. God simply is wherever his power is. And by his power we live and move and are. God is in us making all that possible. Yet, his Being does not mix with our being in any way. You have to think of it as God’s eternal existence, existing side by side with our time bound existence and activity. Whatever we are and do, God is not and does not. Criptic and Mysterious but true.What do you mean with move and operates around? This acts require changes not only in state of being but also in imposed in time.
Well O.K., as long as your Self is the exact same as the God I have spoken of and defined as I have described. Substance is not an illusion. God is a Substance, we are substances. God is a spiritual substance, Pure Intellect, we are composits of a material and a spiritual substance - body and soul.I didn’t mean that we are concepts. I only said that “there are Self (God), selves (we), substance (illusion) and concepts that build our world”.
To me there are only Self (God), selves (our selves), concepts and substance (illusion). Substance is illusion since it does not have self and cannot experience being. Selves are embedded into illusion to understand concept. Understating of concepts however requires a gradual (time) exposure to substance through a process which leads to construction of knowledge. To me time is an illusion as well as it existence only possible through changes in state of substance.I feel that the statement “God created time” is based on a reification of time. ‘Time’ is not a thing or a being. We know what it is, but can’t easily define it. ‘Time’ is a kind of conceptual framework. It is not something which is be ‘made’ by God or anyone.
Some nouns designate actual things (like the Sun, the earth, water, etc.). Such things indeed can be created. Other nouns designate concepts (such as time, opposition, proportionality). While these are designated by nouns, these are not ‘things’. So they are not created at all, since they only exist as concepts or frameworks.
It is not implausible that God IS in time- as I mentioned, maybe His eternity an infinite duration of time. We easily throw around phrases like “outside of time”, or “to travel backwards in time”, but, really, there is no such thing. It is like saying “outside of being”.
God is only Self at least by my definition. I think we have a little misunderstanding in definition. God does not need substance. What self is? Is an anomalous quality that cannot completely be described by attributing some attributes to it. Why? Because it is infinite set of qualities all intertwined together in one absolute point, has no dimension, doesn’t need substance or space…Well O.K., as long as your Self is the exact same as the God I have spoken of and defined as I have described. Substance is not an illusion. God is a Substance, we are substances. God is a spiritual substance, Pure Intellect, we are composits of a material and a spiritual substance - body and soul.
Linus2nd
I did read it, I disagree with the whole thing. Where are you getting these ideas? It appears to some kind of faith, it sounds like some Eastern religious concept of what God is and what reality is. I respect your opinion of course but disagree with it. It does not appear somthing that can be philosophically demonstrated.God is only Self at least by my definition. I think we have a little misunderstanding in definition. God does not need substance. What self is? Is an anomalous quality that cannot completely be described by attributing some attributes to it. Why? Because it is infinite set of qualities all intertwined together in one absolute point, has no dimension, doesn’t need substance or space…
Also please read post post #37 for further explanation of my opnion.
This is just my understanding. I don’t know if I can call it faith. Can you tell me what is the problem with it? I am open to discuss it with you.I did read it, I disagree with the whole thing. Where are you getting these ideas? It appears to some kind of faith, it sounds like some Eastern religious concept of what God is and what reality is. I respect your opinion of course but disagree with it. It does not appear somthing that can be philosophically demonstrated.
Linus2nd