God without Walls?

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seekeroftruth

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Why do we need a church?

Jesus said to follow him give away all that you own. Not build huge buildings & ask for money.

Churches & organised religions are some of the richest & most powerful organisations in the world.

Organised religion has so much blood on its hands, killing & torturing all that did not submit or agree.
In early England there was a Christian Celtic church, but when the pope sent St Augustine to convert the Saxons, the Celtic was threaten that they would be destroyed if they did not submit to the Roman church.

Religious wars are caused by religious leaders not God.
Religion sold forgiveness & threatened anyone who stood against it. Barons & Lords that had killed 100’s would be forgiven if they made a large donation or built a church.
You must come to us to be christened, married, when you die or you will go to hell! They said.

Religion can be a great force for good, but it is used for evil all too often.

Church gets BETWEEN you & god by saying only through us, or only in this building.

If Jesus came down to earth today I think he would weep when he sees what has been done is his name, what would he do with the wealth of the Christian churches? You can answer that yourself.

If a Jew, A Christian & a Muslim were sitting round a table & God was sat silently on the table they would argue for hours about his name what he did and who’s god he was.

BUT

If a Jew, A Christian & a Muslim were sitting round a table & a piece of cheese was on the table they COULD argue for hours about its name & how it was made but they would share it eat it & agree it was GOOD. This is what matters, it is GOOD, what you call it & how it is made DOES NOT MATTER.

Find God in your own life, listen to the little voice that tells you what is wrong & right, he will talk to you if you let him, you don’t have to be in a temple of any kind.

An unworthy seeker
 
While you make many valid points in your statement, you make others that are not so valid and you draw some conclusions that are based on emotional response rather than reason.

You start out by asking why we need a church (lower case ‘c’) and then saying Jesus didn’t ask us to build them. You are correct. We don’t NEED buildings. But they do come in handy sometimes. Then you jump to the statement that Churches (upper case ‘c’) and religious organizations can be rich and powerful. This may be true (but the kind of riches and power could stand to be defined) but it seems you are trying to make an association between the two statements. But there is no logical connection between your second and third paragraphs. The words ‘church’ and ‘Church’ have different definitions.

But there is an emotional implication that rich and power ful organizations are problematic. You follow this up with statements about how some Churches have abused their power. The fact that some Churches or religious groups have committed evil deeds does not deny their importance any more than the fact that some parents intentionally harm their children implies that it is bad to have parents. You yourself admit that religion can be a great force for good.

But then you make the following statment: “Church gets BETWEEN you & god by saying only through us, or only in this building.” This statement is somewhat twisted around. The Church does say, “only through us.” I’m not sure where you get the claim, “only in this building.” But the statement that the “Church gets BETWEEN you & God” is misleading. Since the individual is PART of the Church, the word ‘between’ gives the wrong impression.

But the even if we accept the fact that the Church is in some sense between God and the individual, the overall statement is problematic because it is not the Church that puts itself between God and the individual. It is God who put the Church between Himself and the individual.
 
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SMHW:
Since the individual is PART of the Church, the word ‘between’ gives the wrong impression.

But the even if we accept the fact that the Church is in some sense between God and the individual, the overall statement is problematic because it is not the Church that puts itself between God and the individual. It is God who put the Church between Himself and the individual.
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I think it is absolutely vital that people understand that the Church is not between them and God, but where they are to meet God. Why? Because you are incomplete. God made you to need Him, and He made you to need Him in your brothers and sisters. We are the Body of Christ. We approach God individually, yes, but never alone. The Body of Christ is built as a mirror of the Trinity–fully individuated persons that are nonetheless fully united. That is an aspect of “being made in the image and likeness of God” that should never be forgotten. The Body of Christ is also a mirror of Jesus Himself, in which the human and the divine are fully one. We, as the Body of Christ, are intended to be full of the indwelling life of God, even as we remain absolutely human. We are, in the Body of Christ, God Incarnate. You will see these ideas in the plain meaning of the Gospels and Epistles: we are called in community, and unity is one of the great aspects of living the Christian life. “Where two or three are gathered in my name…”

As for the buildings, that deserves another post, concerning the creature need for sacred space… which, I will alllow, does not necessarily require stained glass, but which is a real need, nonetheless. Anyone want to take that one up?
 
Why did Jesus drive the money-changers out of a building that He referred to as His “Father’s House”?

Some governments have done nasty things in the past and continue to do so in the present: does this render all government invalid as a result? Does this indicate that government is not necessary for an orderly society?

How do you know God exists? How do you define God? Who is Christ? How is it that we have these inspired Scriptures? I could go on and on with a list of questions, but my point is that in answering any of these questions, you are drawing upon the very “organized religion” that you denigrate. Tell me, what other kinds of knowledge, important to our lives, is best transmitted by unorganized rather than organized means?

I’m tired, too, of the old “organized religion has killed so many people” line. The truth is that people kill people, and atheist regimes in the last century have killed far, far more than any of the religious conflicts of the past (which often had secular causes or motivations anyway).

This displays a lack of critical thinking.
 
Thank you for replying. Perhaps I should have said that “Evil” or misled people have used religion as an excuse to cause suffering as it still is today.

I know that pain & suffering are caused by non-religious organisations, but they should never be caused in the name of God.

My main point was more that the word is more important than the building. Yes we need people, but it is possible to know god without the structure of religion.

I am not “having a go at the Catholic Church” it has become very tolerant of other faiths. It is a shame that some faiths are still willing to kill in the name of God.

“It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God”; no one has come back on my question of wealth of the main religions.

As for the small “c” & big “C”, typos, sorry.
 
If you did not intend the words ‘Church’ and ‘church’ to have different meanings in your first post then I guess I am very confused as to what you were trying to say.

The word ‘church’ refers to a building which is used for the worship of God. Some are plain. Some are fancy. Hopefully all churches are a physical statement of the praise and worship we offer to God.

The word ‘Church’ refers to much more. It is the Body of Christ. It is the People of God. It consists of all those people, those living on earth, those in Purgatory, and those in heaven, united with Christ as the head. As such, the Catholic Church is already in heaven as well as on earth. The organized Church is a part of the structure of the Body of Christ. It is not a seperate entity.

Christ’s example of the rich man finding it difficult to enter heaven just doesn’t apply to the Church because the Church is already there. The Church makes heaven present here on earth.

The ‘power’ of the Church is the authority granted to it by Christ. Has the Church sometimes abused that authority? Well, individual members of the Church have done so but that does not change the purpose of the Church.

The Church on earth does own property. I don’t have time to get into a long discussion about it right now. But I will say two things. Much of the supposed wealth of the Church is distributed throughout local dioceses and parishes for the use of the people in specific areas. (This would be analogous as to how the wealth of governments is distributed between nations, local regions, and cities.)

Artwork and other ‘frivolous’ holdings of the Church were donated as means of glorifying God. Jesus approved of using expensive perfume to anoint his feet rather than selling it to provide for the poor. Do we need to balance the use of money for glorifying God with that spent to aid the needy? Of course. But there is merit in spending money just to glorify God.
 
This concept of God without church shows the danger of taking one scripture and ignoring others. Jesus did not tell us to “give away all that we own”. as per the first post. He told a rich man to do because he understood the heart of that man.

We must not be like Judas Iscariot and think that all money must be spent for the poor and none to honor God.

I like what Father Corapi said. “Can you pray without going to church? Sure you can, but your don’t.”
 
yay seekeroftruth!!!
I’m not a fan of organized religion. Look at the early church that you read about in the NT. They met in people’s houses. They built strong relationships as brothers and sisters in the Lord. I doubt they were worried about VBS or the church picnic lol. Seriously though, they were more concerned about telling people about the love of Jesus. Modern day Christianity has lost that I think. I also think that they weren’t the kind of church family who were together on Sunday but had other lives for the rest of the week. They kept each other accountable, prayed for, and encouraged each other. I think that is the body of Christ. (Romans 12:5 springs to mind but I think there is other verses).
<>< For His Glory,
Devyn
 
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darwindidntknow:
yay seekeroftruth!!!
I’m not a fan of organized religion. Look at the early church that you read about in the NT. They met in people’s houses. They built strong relationships as brothers and sisters in the Lord. I doubt they were worried about VBS or the church picnic lol. Seriously though, they were more concerned about telling people about the love of Jesus. Modern day Christianity has lost that I think. I also think that they weren’t the kind of church family who were together on Sunday but had other lives for the rest of the week. They kept each other accountable, prayed for, and encouraged each other. I think that is the body of Christ. (Romans 12:5 springs to mind but I think there is other verses).
<>< For His Glory,
Devyn
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VBS and church picnics are forms of evangelizing and supporting each other.
 
You make some good points about some bad things humanity has done since the Church was established. Perhaps if the Church was not established the earth may be a piece of charcoal from nuclear war by now.

Mankind has never needed the Church to brutalize each other in fact we were being evil before the Church came along.

Yes, the people in the Church have made some mistakes and there are things I don’t like now (dissent, etc.) However, I admire and am very grateful for the unselfishness of so many Catholics and clergy that I see.

We have buildings and money but it’s for the common good not any particular person. This is exactly what the kingdom is about. It’s a lot better than the greed I see outside the Church. 😉
 
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darwindidntknow:
Look at the early church that you read about in the NT. They met in people’s houses. They built strong relationships as brothers and sisters in the Lord.
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Early on they did meet in peoples houses. Actually, they originally joined in the synagogue services for the old testament readings and prayers; then met in homes for their Eucharist (“breaking of bread.”) When the synagogues eventually kicked them out, they held the entire service in homes or in dedicated rooms within homes.

But very soon, once the persecutions stopped, they began building church buildings because they thought it fitting to have a separate place for worship.

JimG
 
Acts 2:42 - They devoted themselves to the teaching of the apostles and to the communal life, to the breaking of the bread and to the prayers.

The use of the definite article before prayers indicates not just the general activity of prayer, but specific prayers; that must require at least a little organization. Also the communal life very quickly grew to a size which needed management, in response to which the apostles appointed deacons to oversee the temporal affairs of the community (distributing goods, etc.). So the earliest of early Christians may not have been as unorganized (meant in opposition to organized religion) as your appeal to the house church model attempts to suggest.
 
Hey, I think you make a lot of valid points, and what I have to say may not be very long or sophisticated but i think it holds a lot of truth.

Jesus also said that when three or more of you get together i am a mongst you. I think that in a short sentance tells you why church is important…even tho i am in no way trying to say that when you are amongst three or more people is the only time that God hears you or is “with” you but I think that when you get together as a community to praise and celebrate the glory and mystery of religion and God you gain strength from that and hope that you are not alone in your faith journey. I do see how there is corruption in all religions but that is something that is brought on not by the religions but by the humans who participate in the religion. We by nature are faulty…the religion, wether wrong or right may not be to blame.
 
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