Godless morality?

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There is a certain aspect of ourselves which might be considered both internal and external, and one which is often critical to our moral development, and that is the awareness of others and the fear of their sanction - certainly the sense of caring what others think, how they perceive us and how our actions affect them is within us as individuals, but the particular feelings of others are beyond our immediate awareness and control.

This obviously isn’t enough for those who think that morality has to be imposed from beyond humanity to have any real weight or effect, but you only have to look at cultures such as that of historical Japan, where losing your honourable standing amongst your fellows meant committing ritual suicide, to realise the power of our social constructs and impulses. What about people who don’t have this sense of social awareness and empathy? Well, we generally consider this a disorder and call such people sociopaths and psychopaths. But again, looking at the historical record, it doesn’t seem like divinely imposed morality did anything for these people either.
The decline of morality in secular societies such as the UK where many women do not even pause to consider whether abortion is justified is incontestable disproof of your contention that divinely imposed morality did nothing - and a flagrant contradiction of your argument that you found God to be an obstacle to the fulfilment of your desires…
 
wittgenstein

I’d be very interested in your answer to the question posed at the end of post # 236. :confused:
 
Response to 238
How is that inconsistent? I never said that an altrusitic person is not allowed to enjoy life. I do not do good for reward.
Suppose I love playing the violen. I practice everyday. I practice because I love making music. One day the symphony calls me. I did not seek a job at the symphony but if they offer one I will not reject it.
I remember a friend in high school that wanted to be a rock musician. He asked me if I thought he would make it. I asked him a question," if God told you that you would never be successful at being a musician would you quit music?" He answered, “yes”. I told him that he would never make it.
I am not sure what the point you’re making is.

Assume there exists an omniscient God. If that God tells you that you will never be a successful musician, then (assuming that God does not lie) you will never be a successful musician by definition of omniscience. To acknowledge this syllogism does not constitute self-doubt and it does not root good actions in reward. Besides this fallacy, I have other problems with this argument: (1) music can be enjoyable even if you are not successful, but the question you asked implies that music only would gain value through the achievement of success; (2) people who practice music frequently enough can “be a rock musician” - maybe not of great fame but starting a band, playing small shows, etc. is actually something very doable to those who are committed enough to doing it; (3) God wouldn’t tell someone that they would never be successful at being a musician.

In any case, you seem to have a misconception of Catholic morality. Altruism and reward are ways that we think about morality and “doing good” in a practical sense, ie. in the real world. That doesn’t make them the basis of Catholic morality, even if you abstract the concept of “reward” to “getting into heaven.” That is never really the basic goal. Catholic morality is based on loving God (and thereby loving his creations). Being good toward God’s creation is supposed to be part of human nature and it is supposed to please God - so fulfilling our nature and pleasing God should be pleasing to humans as well. The fact that it is pleasing doesn’t make it selfish.
 
Response to 238
How is that inconsistent? I never said that an altrusitic person is not allowed to enjoy life. I do not do good for reward.
Suppose I love playing the violen. I practice everyday. I practice because I love making music. One day the symphony calls me. I did not seek a job at the symphony but if they offer one I will not reject it.
I remember a friend in high school that wanted to be a rock musician. He asked me if I thought he would make it. I asked him a question," if God told you that you would never be successful at being a musician would you quit music?" He answered, “yes”. I told him that he would never make it.
I dare say that what wittgenstein is trying to say is being misconstrued. I feel I understand “perfectly well” what he means to say (though he can correct me, if I’m wrong).

In attacking those who do the moral thing for “selfish” reasons, he was attacking those who primarily do “good” to others as part of a calculus of selfishness. Certainly, our business world is very much based on that – take your client out to lunch; you scratch their back, they’ll scratch yours. Or, as folks are wont to say, “you’re just greasing the wheel,” by treating others well.

I think what wittgenstein is disturbed by is the reasoning – more common among the secular, than the religious – that, “I am going to treat others well because, if I don’t, they are just going to mistreat me”; also, “I am going to treat them well because, if I don’t, I will feel their pain, and I don’t want to feel their pain. In alleviating their pain, I am alleviating my own.”

I agree that it’s all but impossible to eliminate this from one’s thinking entirely, especially the second example. Still, to articulate it like that to oneself, so self-consciously and deliberately, is to reduce morality to a kind of prudence. wittgenstein seems to favor those who “do what is right” without reflecting on it as if they were trying to decide whether to take the subway or a taxi. This is in the spirit of Goethe’s saying, “those who do not help immediately, seem to me not to help at all.” In other words, one does not say, “hmm, let me think about it first…” Close friends are often sensitive to that moment of hesitation (as a would-be bridegroom would be sensitive to hesitation in his would-be bride). That “moment of hesitation” can be painful to contemplate. Just so, if a friend (whom I trust) asks me, “can I ask you for a favor” I make it a point to say, “sure!” rather than, “well, it depends what that favor is.”

Regarding the “if God said you’ll never be a musician analogy”, I also find that (frankly) to be poignant and meaningful. I think wittgeinstein point was precisely that success is not measured in material reward, and monetary compensation, or social recognition. He (or she) was using “success” in this purely material sense, I think. So the point being made was that you’ll only succeed at being a musician if you’re not doing it for worldly success, but for the inner passion – because it’s what you feel put on earth to do. As I understand, when he had God tell that person, “you’ll never be successful in music,” he was meaning it to say, “you’ll never be successful in the eyes of the world: no record contract; no fame; no recognition.” In other words, “either the music is its own reward, or there is no reward.”

I grant, it’s a paradox in saying, “by not caring if you succeed in the eyes of the world, you will succeed in the eyes of the world,” but that’s what I think his point was. He is not being illogical or paradoxical – even in the context of an omniscient God – so long as his example is sufficiently hypothetical, or rhetorical. Perhaps a more logical way of putting it (avoiding the paradoxes of God’s omniscience) would be, “would you still pursue music, even if you ultimately won’t succeed at it?”

Similarly, one would say, “would you do good even if there were no such thing as heaven? Even if God expected you to be good, but without any promise of reward in the afterlife?” If you would be good anyway, then – ironically – heaven is more likely to be your reward, because your goodness is not a means to an end, but an end in itself.
 
I think what wittgenstein is disturbed by is the reasoning – more common among the secular, than the religious – that, "I am going to treat others well because, if I don’t, they are just going to mistreat me"; also, "I am going to treat them well because, if I don’t, I will feel their pain, and I don’t want to feel their pain. In alleviating their pain, I am alleviating my own."
Thank you for making his critique a little more clear. I regret responding as unilaterally as I did.

What I still see as problematic is that we do not know people’s motivations for doing good deeds most of the time. Of course, if your boss needs a favor done and you are hoping for a promotion, you will readily help him out. Is that selfishness - or is that common sense? The fact that we have something to gain by being good does not really lessen the fact that we are being good, nor does it eliminate other motivations for goodness. You could also be a nice guy who would help out any of your coworkers, but since this time it’s your boss or a client, it appears that you are selfish.

There is also something qualitatively different between “I will help someone because I would like them to help me” (or “I would like them to help me if I were in need of help”) and “I will help someone because I understand their situation/suffering/etc.” The former is fairly selfish, but I think you must strain to attribute that attitude to most supposedly altruistic actions in the world, whether secular or religious. People enjoy charitable acts because to some extent they do make us feel good - and that may be a mixture of a natural proclivity for empathy and feelings of righteousness. But surely no one who just wants to feel good and glean psychological benefits is going to go perform charity - there are other more effective ways to delude yourself and release more endorphins in your brain.
Regarding the “if God said you’ll never be a musician analogy”, I also find that (frankly) to be poignant and meaningful. I think wittgeinstein point was precisely that success is not measured in material reward, and monetary compensation, or social recognition. He (or she) was using “success” in this purely material sense, I think. So the point being made was that you’ll only succeed at being a musician if you’re not doing it for worldly success, but for the inner passion – because it’s what you feel put on earth to do. As I understand, when he had God tell that person, “you’ll never be successful in music,” he was meaning it to say, “you’ll never be successful in the eyes of the world: no record contract; no fame; no recognition.” In other words, “either the music is its own reward, or there is no reward.”
I think I was a little more disappointed with the rhetorical mode in this example. Because the question he asked was about God, it was not clear whether he was critiquing success/reward in Christian morality or… what? The example lacked detail as to what “success” was. It seemed to me like a question about will: as though, if you ever doubt your ability to become successful, you will not become successful.

Again, I would not completely remove reward from a consideration of what action one should take. Rock music is archetypical - writing an anecdote about an aspiring rock musician implies that we should think about some conflict between commercialism/success and passion/love of making music. What is being argued is that working for just money and success is a bad thing: if you would not do it without a reward, then you don’t have the right motivation for doing it. As I said earlier, I would not take such an absolute stance.

I think it’s clearer if you think of something less flashy than rock music. I am a college student and I am studying math and computer science. Would I be working 50 hours a week if I could not later profit from the knowledge I’m getting? Of course not. I love the subjects I’m studying and I’m glad that I’ll be able to work in areas that I enjoy and am good at. But that doesn’t make my reasons for studying them selfish: it makes them logical. I need to have a career because I will need money. It makes sense that I do something that I like. Maybe I wouldn’t give them up entirely if I had no hope of reward (or would not be good enough at them to actually get a job), but I would certainly not study as hard if I didn’t have a hope of reward.

Back to the rock musician example: Here is an extension of my problem with his rhetorical mode. I don’t want to question wittgenstein’s credibility, but this is a rhetorical anecdote that he is retelling. I don’t know if the conversation happened in this exact way, and there are a lot of specifics that we don’t know: by “rock musician,” are we to understand that his friend wanted music to be his career? Was this a question of whether or not he could make money in his desired field? Or was it the question of being successful at a hobby that one enjoys? I would hope that anyone who knew that they would not be successful in their career would pursue another career (I don’t think it’s possible to know this, but the question posited a hypothetical). I mean, having unselfish motives is nice, but you do need to make money in order to live.

Now, the question was phrased as though it was success or nothing (quit music). I am interpreting this as hyperbolic. I do agree it is a rare case: someone who is a talented enough musician to consider making money off of it probably enjoys it. That is why the response of the friend is a little confounding: music can be a hobby, so it would not make sense to completely swear it off if you couldn’t make money by doing it.
 
There is a certain aspect of ourselves which might be considered both internal and external, and one which is often critical to our moral development, and that is the awareness of others and the fear of their sanction - certainly the sense of caring what others think, how they perceive us and how our actions affect them is within us as individuals, but the particular feelings of others are beyond our immediate awareness and control.
Caring about what others think of us or what they may do to us has nothing to do with moral development but rather everything to do with the dulling of the conscience in a feeble attempt to rid one’s self of the guilt they experience when acting against the conscience which reproves their actions. What you described is the sad attempt of people doing anything to survive; including sacrificing the truth, especially when the truth demands the sacrifice of their very lives, which it always does!
This obviously isn’t enough for those who think that morality has to be imposed from beyond humanity to have any real weight or effect, but you only have to look at cultures such as that of historical Japan, where losing your honourable standing amongst your fellows meant committing ritual suicide, to realise the power of our social constructs and impulses. What about people who don’t have this sense of social awareness and empathy? Well, we generally consider this a disorder and call such people sociopaths and psychopaths. But again, looking at the historical record, it doesn’t seem like divinely imposed morality did anything for these people either.
This has the common error of saying the majority is the standard bearer of truth, which it is not. Divinely imposed morality does not force someone to act. If the majority of people did not respond to the voice of God working through their consciences then this is not because there is no divinely imposed morality but rather because they chose to ignore it and to try and quite the voice of God who condemned their immoral behavior and their pride. This same type of behavior can be seen today in modern man with all of the distractions and noise that have been introduced into our lives, all so we can try to mute the divinely imposed morality which speaks to use through our conscience.
 
I agree with you wholeheartedly, Polytropos, in that I don’t think Christians in general are called to be so scrupulous, that any form of pleasure and satisfaction derived from moral behavior is counted as selfishness. Indeed, virtue is conceived of as its own reward, so one can indeed have the satisfaction, and reap the inner of peace, of knowing one has done the “right thing.”

From a Christian perspective, though, I could see a built-in hazard in the work example that you cited. Generally, if the boss asks you for a favor, you do it — partially because there is satisfaction in helping others and because it’s perhaps the right thing to do, partially because it’s in your practical interest to do so.

But what if your boss either says something, or does something, that violates your conscience? What if you’re a Catholic nurse who has just started a job, and – on your second day of work – your boss has asked you to do something you consider profoundly immoral? These are tough questions, especially if you’re a nurse who’s been out of work for several months, and a single mother, and with mouths to feed at home.

Catholicism doesn’t guarantee that painful sacrifices aren’t sometimes morally necessary; or is it less of a sin, if you participate in something immoral, because you had compelling physical or material needs that behaving morally would compromise?

Regarding the boss example – on a more benign level – I’m also thinking of Jesus’ admonition in Matthew, “when you pray, do it in private, behind closed doors. And your father in heaven, who sees it, will reward you in private.” As a general rule, it would be a bit calculating if I did a good deed for someone, and wanted to make sure he knew that it was I who did the good deed. Yet, in a work environment, it is sometimes important to “toot one’s own horn”, to let the boss know exactly what you’re doing, lest there be a miscommunication on the matter.

But again, that kind of understandable self-interest can come to a head, when it is suddenly “common sense” that is being pitted against more deeply held values (Peter denied Christ because he wanted to survive, an understandable motivation).

In the artist example, the willingness to make sacrifices is for the love of the work as an end in itself, not for the money (or even the fame and recognition, though these lie closer to the work itself than does the money). It’s Kantian, in a way – pursue the work as an end in itself, not as a means to an end. You don’t sell out your art, just as you wouldn’t sell out your child.

A couple of examples of what I think wittgenstein was talking about – regarding making sacrifices for the love of one’s art, for something true to oneself – come to mind. The first is from Stallone, speaking to students at the Actors’ Studio about how he sold the Rocky project; the second is from Rod Serling, being interviewed by Mike Wallace, when the Twilight Zone first debuted.

"I delivered the script. They said, ‘very nice. We’re gonna buy it from you. We’re gonna give you twenty grand, and we’d like to have Ryan O’Neal play the part, or Burt Reynolds.’ I said, ‘you know, I really had my heart set on this.’
‘But, no one knows you.’
I said, ‘I understand that. But I’ll work for free.’
He said, ‘it doesn’t work that way.’ So they said, 'will you take 80 grand [note: 1976 money]. And then he said, 'we’re also thinking of going with Redford. If we go with Redford, we’ll give you 200 grand. Now you understand, I had sold my dog. I couldn’t afford dog food. I had $106 bucks in the bank,between me and oblivion. Now it was at $200 grand. So, Redford showed some interest, and so did John Boorman. They said, ‘okay – would you take $300 grand?’ I said, ‘oh my God…’ Now you understand… We could’ve used it. We were really down and out, and I said, 'I can’t do it. I know it would maybe set us up the rest of my life, but I just can’t look into the mirror and go ‘what if?’ You’ve come this far you’re whole life, and right here…you can’t sell it, can’t do it. So they said, ‘330. And finally they said 360.’ I said, 'let me explain something. Don’t make the movie. Don’t make the movie, because I’m never gonna sell it. And they said,‘well, you’re crazy!’ I said, ‘I understand that, but I’m never gonna sell it.’ So they came back and said, ‘fine, you’re gonna do the movie; you’re gonna get paid $340 dollars a week. That’s it.’ And I said, ‘fine. The minimum was $20 grand. And then after taxes, the agent, whatever, it was literally about 8 grand. So I was more than happy.’

Mike Wallace: I don’t mean, now seriously, I’m not asking for figures here, but obviously The Twilight Zone is your own creation. You’re doing it for money. I think that our audience would be fascinated to know, and again I don’t want to get too specific, but how rich can a fellow get under these circumstances?

Rod Serling: Well, if the show is successful, he can get tremendously rich. He can make a half a million dollars, I suppose.

Mike Wallace: Half a million dollars a what? A year?

Rod Serling: Over a period of three or four years, I suppose. But, Mike, again this sounds defensive and it probably sounds phony, but I’m not nearly as concerned with the money to be made on this show as I am with the quality of it and I can prove that. I have a contract with Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer which guarantees me something in the neighborhood of a quarter of a million dollars over a period of three years. This is a contract I’m trying to break and get out of, so I can devote time to a series which is very iffy, which is a very problematical thing. It’s only guaranteed twenty-six weeks and if it only goes twenty-six weeks and stops, I’ll have lost a great deal of money. But I would rather take the chance and do something I like, something I’m familiar with, something that has a built-in challenge to it."
 
Caring about what others think of us or what they may do to us has nothing to do with moral development but rather everything to do with the dulling of the conscience in a feeble attempt to rid one’s self of the guilt they experience when acting against the conscience which reproves their actions. What you described is the sad attempt of people doing anything to survive; including sacrificing the truth, especially when the truth demands the sacrifice of their very lives, which it always does!

This has the common error of saying the majority is the standard bearer of truth, which it is not. Divinely imposed morality does not force someone to act. If the majority of people did not respond to the voice of God working through their consciences then this is not because there is no divinely imposed morality but rather because they chose to ignore it and to try and quite the voice of God who condemned their immoral behavior and their pride. This same type of behavior can be seen today in modern man with all of the distractions and noise that have been introduced into our lives, all so we can try to mute the divinely imposed morality which speaks to use through our conscience.
👍 Guilt is conveniently regarded - and discarded - as an archaic notion…
 
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