God's chosen penalties for sin and His love

[PeaceInChrist]

I have been struggling with this:

God is almighty. He is infinite. He is pure good. In fact, He is ALL that is good. So after Adam’s sin, why did God decide that the penalty for sin be death? God could have chosen any punishment. He’s God, after all. He could have brought them back to grace without cursing the entirety of creation because of their sin. In fact, doesn’t that show a kind of impotence, that God allowed the entirety of creation to be distorted and wrecked by a simple action of two of His creatures? Either that, or He is an extraordinarily harsh judge.

Then, why did God send Himself, to die, for the penalty that He Himself imposed in the first place? I mean, He’s God! He could have done anything to save us from sin. HE GOT TO DECIDE THE PENALTY FOR SIN! And He chose death, so that He had to come die for us, and then call Himself good for doing it! God is supposed to be all that is good, right? So why did He impose this penalty, that would lead to the suffering of billions of His creations, and that allowed concupiscence into the world, so that not only do we have to deal with suffering and disease and death and pain and all kinds of torments, but ALSO have essentially very little control over our own wills in the process?

I mean, COME ON! Angels had unhindered wills and intellects, and even ONE THIRD of them chose to go against God! If they chose death over life, with perfect intellects and full control of their wills, why would God impose these curses on us, which stack the deck heavily against us? How is this love? God even said that most people would take the road to destruction. If you were in control of everything, why would you impose a penalty on your children that prevented many of them from returning to you???

So, essentially, I’m confused at how God can be all good and loving, while simultaneously imposing death upon His creations because of an action of one of their ancestors, and not only death, but also the internal desire for sin, which prevents many (even those who make an effort) from being freed from sin. I can’t seem to reconcile in my mind the decision of God to impose death, suffering, and concupiscence, and then sacrifice Himself to save us from His own imposed penalty. Yes, I realize Adam brought sin into the world, but like I said, it was God who decided the penalties that will lead the majority of humanity to Hell, and the ‘plan’ for offering salvation by having Himself killed. I am entirely confused.

 

[MichaelHowling]

3 points here:

1. The universe is made and works and is held together by laws God has put in place…for instance: Gravity. You could be a disenter and say " I refuse gravity!" and to prove the way you wish to live…walk off a tall building… what happens? You end up proving the law regardless of how you choose to believe/accept and break every bone in your body! Same thing happened in the garden of eden. We were made to be in communion with God…when we decided to become gods without god by taking of the “fruit” and deciding for ourselves what is good and evil (the tree of the knowledge of good and evil)…we jumped off the tall building.

2.Why did He send Himself to die? …because love (God is love) …consumes itself in loving!
Little story for you: A 18 yr old is brought before a judge…she did 30 over the speed limit. The judge says " $300 dollar fine!" …then the judge steps off the bench, takes off his robe and writes a check for 300…the judge was her father.
God being all loving is also perfect in everything else…including justice!

1. We all come from 1 source …the only source…GOD!
   This explains everything (remember how I mentioned how we live in a world of laws …realities). It explains why a pair of humans ruined it for the rest of us and why it only took one person (Jesus) to bring us all back. It explains how your actions and sins DO have an effect on the “body” of humanity!

God bless

 

[PeaceInChrist]

3 points here:

1. The universe is made and works and is held together by laws God has put in place…for instance: Gravity. You could be a disenter and say " I refuse gravity!" and to prove the way you wish to live…walk off a tall building… what happens? You end up proving the law regardless of how you choose to believe/accept and break every bone in your body! Same thing happened in the garden of eden. We were made to be in communion with God…when we decided to become gods without god by taking of the “fruit” and deciding for ourselves what is good and evil (the tree of the knowledge of good and evil)…we jumped off the tall building.

Yes, and gravity isn’t inherited because of the actions of a distant forefather. Gravity also doesn’t lead me to desire sin. Gravity is just gravity. It is not a penalty imposed for an action. Additionally, it is not an accurate comparison to my question: I am not questioning the actual existence of something, I am questioning why this something was brought into existence when it was completely and totally unnecessary. A more accurate comparison would be that God told one of my distant ancestors not to test gravity by jumping, and he did, so all of his progeny now have an inherent desire to jump off cliffs or high places whenever they are present, and these high places were made present everywhere, and so most people jump off cliffs because they have a desire to do so and they are surrounded by cliffs. Now the judge who decided we would have the desire to jump off of cliffs has to come and be pushed off a cliff to make up for our great ancestor who tested gravity, because the judge is the only one that could undo his judgement… by being pushed??? God decided that we should suffer and die for an action, then came into the world to suffer and die to make up for it, but still left many of the effects of that first action in place, so that many would still suffer the same horrible fate? Why?

2.Why did He send Himself to die? …because love (God is love) …consumes itself in loving!
Little story for you: A 18 yr old is brought before a judge…she did 30 over the speed limit. The judge says " $300 dollar fine!" …then the judge steps off the bench, takes off his robe and writes a check for 300…the judge was her father.
God being all loving is also perfect in everything else…including justice!

You have essentially answered my question about why God had to send Himself to die with… He loves us so He had to send Himself to die. You have not answered the question of why God had to impose a death penalty for childish disobedience, why He had to impose it upon the entirety of creation, or why He had to send Himself to die to satisfy His own imposition.

1. We all come from 1 source …the only source…GOD!
   This explains everything (remember how I mentioned how we live in a world of laws …realities). It explains why a pair of humans ruined it for the rest of us and why it only took one person (Jesus) to bring us all back. It explains how your actions and sins DO have an effect on the “body” of humanity!

I have no idea what this has to do with anything whatsoever, or how coming from a single source somehow explains how a pair of humans brought the destruction of the entirety of grace-filled creation about. We come from God… and? How does this answer the question that I posed? Why did God make the penalty death, and beyond our power to pay, when He made the court and He is the judge? There is no comparison in gravity or any natural law. Natural laws are not a consequence of sin. They are a part of creation. Sin is not. It was our doing, and God chose how to deal with sin: kill us and withdraw His grace from creation. Even ignoring this question, why, both before and after He died for us, did He allow the desire for sin to remain in His creation, to the point that even many believers would be damned?

 

[MichaelHowling]

Yes, and gravity isn’t inherited because of the actions of a distant forefather. Gravity also doesn’t lead me to desire sin. Gravity is just gravity. It is not a penalty imposed for an action. Additionally, it is not an accurate comparison to my question: I am not questioning the actual existence of something, I am questioning why this something was brought into existence when it was completely and totally unnecessary. A more accurate comparison would be that God told one of my distant ancestors not to test gravity by jumping, and he did, so all of his progeny now have an inherent desire to jump off cliffs or high places whenever they are present, and these high places were made present everywhere, and so most people jump off cliffs because they have a desire to do so and they are surrounded by cliffs. Now the judge who decided we would have the desire to jump off of cliffs has to come and be pushed off a cliff to make up for our great ancestor who tested gravity, because the judge is the only one that could undo his judgement… by being pushed??? God decided that we should suffer and die for an action, then came into the world to suffer and die to make up for it, but still left many of the effects of that first action in place, so that many would still suffer the same horrible fate? Why?

Yes…that’s what the church teaches about what we call original sin. It has left a mark on all humanity to have a tendency to be pulled toward sinning. So my analogy does work in this case.

Also you are mistaken about part of that story. God was not cursing the human race for the sin…He was stating a fact of the mess we got ourselves into.

Then the LORD God said to the snake:

Because you have done this,

cursed are you

among all the animals, tame or wild;

On your belly you shall crawl,

and dust you shall eat

all the days of your life.

• f

15I will put enmity between you and the woman,

and between your offspring and hers;

They will strike at your head,

while you strike at their heel.* g

16To the woman he said:

I will intensify your toil in childbearing;

in pain

• you shall bring forth children.

Yet your urge shall be for your husband,

and he shall rule over you.

17To the man he said: Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, You shall not eat from it,

Cursed is the ground

• because of you!

In toil you shall eat its yield

all the days of your life.h

18Thorns and thistles it shall bear for you,

and you shall eat the grass of the field.

19By the sweat of your brow

you shall eat bread,

Until you return to the ground,

from which you were taken;

For you are dust,

and to dust you shall return.i

God only mentions He will intervene between satan and “the woman”…and that females labor pains will be increased by God (He says, " I will increase" )…I suggest to you that He did this to thwart the woman from again thinking they are god …by bringing forth life…the pain reminds them of this. All the other parts of the saying above are simply factual…what happens due to their choice. I mentioned the 3rd part of my previous post to you because I was hoping you would catch on to why the sin of our first parents transmits to the rest of us…we are all one! (Just as God is 1 in three persons…and we are made in His image and likeness).

I think I answered why God had to come to die quite adequetly actually. I would add that there is an INFINATE gap between us and God. We are like an ant in the garden of the gardener…if an ant bit the gardener…how could the ant EVER say he was soory or make any amends to the gardener… IMPOSSIBLE ! he couldint. Jesus …the God-man remidied this for the human race.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

Yes…that’s what the church teaches about what we call original sin. It has left a mark on all humanity to have a tendency to be pulled toward sinning. So my analogy does work in this case.

Again, I don’t see how or why it was necessary to allow a single action to destroy the entirety of grace-filled creation. We suffer because someone else jumped. Not only that, but we are born with the DESIRE to jump, and are surrounded by cliffs. That confuses me.

God only mentions He will intervene between satan and “the woman”…and that females labor pains will be increased by God (He says, " I will increase" )…I suggest to you that He did this to thwart the woman from again thinking they are god …by bringing forth life…the pain reminds them of this. All the other parts of the saying above are simply factual…what happens due to their choice. I mentioned the 3rd part of my previous post to you because I was hoping you would catch on to why the sin of our first parents transmits to the rest of us…we are all one! (Just as God is 1 in three persons…and we are made in His image and likeness).

We are each a distinct and separate creation from each other human being. We are not one as the Father and Son and Spirit are one. They are consubstantial with one another. I am not consubstantial with Adam. And whether God allows something to happen while having the power to stop it, or causes something to happen, it happens regardless. God decided that sin would curse the entirety of creation. God also allowed the snake into the garden. Now, because of this first deception, all other humans have forces fighting against them that neither Adam or Eve had to oppose: a corrupted, fallen will that seeks good outside of God. They sought good outside of God, but did not suffer from concupiscence as we do.

I think I answered why God had to come to die quite adequetly actually. I would add that there is an INFINATE gap between us and God. We are like an ant in the garden of the gardener…if an ant bit the gardener…how could the ant EVER say he was soory or make any amends to the gardener… IMPOSSIBLE ! he couldint. Jesus …the God-man remidied this for the human race.

Again, we are not ants. We have a will and intellect. It would be like an ant knowingly biting the gardener, and then the gardener making all the other ants desire to bite Him. Why were the angels allowed unhindered intellects and wills when deciding their fate? Luficer’s rebellion didn’t cause the clouding of angelic wills. Each angel chose for himself, perfectly free, to rebel against or submit to God.

And why couldn’t the ant say it was sorry? Who decided that it was impossible? Why does the progeny of the ant have to suffer a worse fate than their father (eternal damnation because of an inclination to participate in actions that lead to it)?

 

[Joy2day]

The simple fact is that if you understand it - it is not from God. We do not understand Him - we do not understand entirely our own bodies or minds - let alone God. I think we just have to gauge our relationship with God and see the effects sin has on that relationship and then we can understand. We don’t make the rules, but we are made and designed to follow them. There are certain things in the world and in the body which are opposed to God - why? I do not know - I think maybe it is so we are given the opportunity to choose - to freely choose God over the direction of the flesh and certain things in the world. I think that is the reason - God wants our free choice.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

The simple fact is that if you understand it - it is not from God. We do not understand Him - we do not understand entirely our own bodies or minds - let alone God. I think we just have to gauge our relationship with God and see the effects sin has on that relationship and then we can understand. We don’t make the rules, but we are made and designed to follow them. There are certain things in the world and in the body which are opposed to God - why? I do not know - I think maybe it is so we are given the opportunity to choose - to freely choose God over the direction of the flesh and certain things in the world. I think that is the reason - God wants our free choice.

How free are we to choose? We all have concupiscence. We all desire sin. Our free ‘yes’ is not very free at all. I can say ‘yes’ to God, attempt to avoid sin and be righteous, and still fail and end up in hell. How free is that? The angels were free. Their ‘yes’ was eternal, as was their ‘no’. Only a third of them fell. Yet we know by Scripture that a greater number of people will be in hell than in heaven, and really, without a perfectly clear intellect and will to determine their actions, how can one blame foolish children for getting themselves killed? It’s almost as though it is set up to lead the majority to eternal death.

 

[ngocsuong1402sh]

I have been struggling with this:

God is almighty. He is infinite. He is pure good. In fact, He is ALL that is good. So after Adam’s sin, why did God decide that the penalty for sin be death? God could have chosen any punishment. He’s God, after all. He could have brought them back to grace without cursing the entirety of creation because of their sin. In fact, doesn’t that show a kind of impotence, that God allowed the entirety of creation to be distorted and wrecked by a simple action of two of His creatures? Either that, or He is an extraordinarily harsh judge.

Then, why did God send Himself, to die, for the penalty that He Himself imposed in the first place? I mean, He’s God! He could have done anything to save us from sin. HE GOT TO DECIDE THE PENALTY FOR SIN! And He chose death, so that He had to come die for us, and then call Himself good for doing it! God is supposed to be all that is good, right? So why did He impose this penalty, that would lead to the suffering of billions of His creations, and that allowed concupiscence into the world, so that not only do we have to deal with suffering and disease and death and pain and all kinds of torments, but ALSO have essentially very little control over our own wills in the process?

I mean, COME ON! Angels had unhindered wills and intellects, and even ONE THIRD of them chose to go against God! If they chose death over life, with perfect intellects and full control of their wills, why would God impose these curses on us, which stack the deck heavily against us? How is this love? God even said that most people would take the road to destruction. If you were in control of everything, why would you impose a penalty on your children that prevented many of them from returning to you???

So, essentially, I’m confused at how God can be all good and loving, while simultaneously imposing death upon His creations because of an action of one of their ancestors, and not only death, but also the internal desire for sin, which prevents many (even those who make an effort) from being freed from sin. I can’t seem to reconcile in my mind the decision of God to impose death, suffering, and concupiscence, and then sacrifice Himself to save us from His own imposed penalty. Yes, I realize Adam brought sin into the world, but like I said, it was God who decided the penalties that will lead the majority of humanity to Hell, and the ‘plan’ for offering salvation by having Himself killed. I am entirely confused.

Up cho bÃi nÃy!

 

[MichaelHowling]

Again, I don’t see how or why it was necessary to allow a single action to destroy the entirety of grace-filled creation. We suffer because someone else jumped. Not only that, but we are born with the DESIRE to jump, and are surrounded by cliffs. That confuses me.

I’m sorry… I don’t know what more to say. It’s the teaching of the church and I think my description was pretty good. I’m willing to accept that a single action of our parents wounded us all since it works out to our favor in that the sacrifice of one wass able to make up for ALL of our woundedness. And remember, we are not surrounded by cliffs …our distorted viewpoint (due to the first sin that warped our preception) can make anything around us a tool for sin…however, God had made everything very good.

We need to stop blameing God! It was not God’s fault. Our world and our soul was made beautiful and good. I think it would be good for you to think about the "cleanliness " insisted upon in the old testiment with God’s people. If they touched an impure food, item, person…they too became unclean…think of that perhaps in regards to “original sin” . Gods holiness is so absolute! You also sound kind of like (and don’t get offended here…) …like you are taking the position of most protestant circles in that you think your salvation is simply a “personal” thing. There is also a communal aspect to salvation.

We are each a distinct and separate creation from each other human being. We are not one as the Father and Son and Spirit are one. They are consubstantial with one another. I am not consubstantial with Adam. And whether God allows something to happen while having the power to stop it, or causes something to happen, it happens regardless. God decided that sin would curse the entirety of creation. God also allowed the snake into the garden. Now, because of this first deception, all other humans have forces fighting against them that neither Adam or Eve had to oppose: a corrupted, fallen will that seeks good outside of God. They sought good outside of God, but did not suffer from concupiscence as we do.

I think you are incorrect here. We all hold the same nature together and in that light have similar attributes as humans (although, unlike the trinity…our attributes and attitude to being 1 is practiced in different degrees as we are not as of yet one in will…even though Jesus is trying to work on us to be so).

You also go again at blaming God here! Very bad! And incorrect to do so because it was not God who punished (we just felt the result of our actions…going against how we/universe was made)
God is for us and not against us!

Lastly, they sought to be gods without God…and you are correct in that they did not suffer concupisence as we do until after the fall…then they did. Original sin is a handicaping or twisting of our intellect/will to incline towards evil…to see things in a different light (to kind of step back from reality…not seeing things as God made and intended them).

Again, we are not ants. We have a will and intellect. It would be like an ant knowingly biting the gardener, and then the gardener making all the other ants desire to bite Him. Why were the angels allowed unhindered intellects and wills when deciding their fate? Luficer’s rebellion didn’t cause the clouding of angelic wills. Each angel chose for himself, perfectly free, to rebel against or submit to God.

And why couldn’t the ant say it was sorry? Who decided that it was impossible? Why does the progeny of the ant have to suffer a worse fate than their father (eternal damnation because of an inclination to participate in actions that lead to it)?

Ok, lol…so you don’t appreciate the tools of analogy. All anaologys WILL break down sooner or later …because they’re analogies. However, my analogy STILL served it’s purpose I think (you really sound just kinda angry to me for some reason). To put my apparently weak and unaceptible analogy another way…cough cough… Again, there is an INFANITE gap between we, the spec in the universe and God Almighty. What could a finite creature do or give to the God who owns all creation ? Yet , justice still needed to be satisfied…Christ is both God and man and was able to do this.

God bless you on your search for truth

 

[Joy2day]

How free are we to choose? We all have concupiscence. We all desire sin. Our free ‘yes’ is not very free at all. I can say ‘yes’ to God, attempt to avoid sin and be righteous, and still fail and end up in hell. How free is that? The angels were free. Their ‘yes’ was eternal, as was their ‘no’. Only a third of them fell. Yet we know by Scripture that a greater number of people will be in hell than in heaven, and really, without a perfectly clear intellect and will to determine their actions, how can one blame foolish children for getting themselves killed? It’s almost as though it is set up to lead the majority to eternal death.

We don’t know that most people go to Hell - what about the gospel where Jesus says - to man this is impossible (ie. to reach Heaven), but to God, nothing is impossible. Would have seemed impossible for a man to rise from the dead also and to willingly go to his death like that. Mortal sin is where you know full well that what you are doing is wrong - there are many instances where people honestly don’t believe something to be wrong = no mortal sin. We are also not expected to be puppets - we, like St Augustine, have to honestly search for the truth our whole lives and go by the primacy of conscience - we are given the intellect and will for these things. However, depending on your knowledge of God, you can will yourself to overcome the natural ways - like the battle St Paul had so many times. Like St Peter drowning in the water - he would have drowned, yes definitely, unless he asked Our Lord to help him. God is much more glorious and wonderful than anything the body can give you (depending on your state in life of course). But of course, if one is weak and not used to discipline - then simply stay away from temptations - go pole sitting for a while - in the end it is much better for you. It is not true that we don’t have a choice, that we are slaves to nature; we may feel compelled to do something and end up doing it, but removing a temptation will fix that problem.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

Sorry, but after thinking a bit, I’d like the thread closed. This isn’t something that will be answered. I can’t just ask God why He did something a certain way. Sin = death because He said so. I can’t redefine His nature because I think He’s unfair. If He says He is good, and I don’t think He’s good, His definition trumps mine every time. This is something I’ll have to think on and pray on. Other than that, there’s really no ‘answer’ that anyone can give. These are all mysteries that I am questioning, and require faith to answer. This is between God and me.

Sorry for wasting time. I appreciate all the answers given. It was prideful of me to ask these things that can’t be given a definitive answer.

 

[MichaelHowling]

Peace…very humble statement by you friend! And good for you! However, you can always trust the answer and teachings of the church in these matters (those things that have been revealed at least) .

Remember the book of Job…chapter 38

1Then the LORD* answered Job out of the storm and said:

2Who is this who darkens counsel

with words of ignorance?

3Gird up your loins* now, like a man;

I will question you, and you tell me the answers!a

4Where were you when I founded the earth?

Tell me, if you have understanding.

5Who determined its size? Surely you know?

Who stretched out the measuring line for it?

6Into what were its pedestals sunk,

and who laid its cornerstone,

7While the morning stars sang together

and all the sons of God* shouted for joy?

8Who shut within doors the sea,

when it burst forth from the womb,b

9When I made the clouds its garment

and thick darkness its swaddling bands?

10When I set limits for it

and fastened the bar of its door,

11And said: Thus far shall you come but no farther,

and here shall your proud waves stop?

12Have you ever in your lifetime commanded the morning

and shown the dawn its place

13For taking hold of the ends of the earth,

till the wicked are shaken from it?

14The earth is changed as clay by the seal,

and dyed like a garment;

15But from the wicked their light is withheld,

and the arm of pride is shattered.

16Have you entered into the sources of the sea,

or walked about on the bottom of the deep?

17Have the gates of death been shown to you,

or have you seen the gates of darkness?

18Have you comprehended the breadth of the earth?

Tell me, if you know it all.

19What is the way to the dwelling of light,

and darkness—where is its place?

20That you may take it to its territory

and know the paths to its home?

21You know, because you were born then,

and the number of your days is great!*

22Have you entered the storehouses of the snow,

and seen the storehouses of the hail

23Which I have reserved for times of distress,

for a day of war and battle?c

24What is the way to the parting of the winds,

where the east wind spreads over the earth?

25Who has laid out a channel for the downpour

and a path for the thunderstorm

26To bring rain to uninhabited land,

the unpeopled wilderness;

27To drench the desolate wasteland

till the desert blooms with verdure?

28Has the rain a father?

Who has begotten the drops of dew?

29Out of whose womb comes the ice,

and who gives the hoarfrost its birth in the skies,

30When the waters lie covered as though with stone

that holds captive the surface of the deep?

31Have you tied cords to the Pleiades,*

or loosened the bonds of Orion?

32Can you bring forth the Mazzaroth in their season,

or guide the Bear with her children?

33Do you know the ordinances of the heavens;

can you put into effect their plan on the earth?

34Can you raise your voice to the clouds,

for them to cover you with a deluge of waters?

35Can you send forth the lightnings on their way,

so that they say to you, “Here we are”?

36Who gives wisdom to the ibis,

and gives the rooster* understanding?

37Who counts the clouds with wisdom?

Who tilts the water jars of heaven

38So that the dust of earth is fused into a mass

and its clods stick together?

39Do you hunt the prey for the lion

or appease the hunger of young lions,

40While they crouch in their dens,

or lie in ambush in the thicket?

41Who provides nourishment for the raven

when its young cry out to God,d

wandering about without food?

 

[Joy2day]

Sorry, but after thinking a bit, I’d like the thread closed. This isn’t something that will be answered. I can’t just ask God why He did something a certain way. Sin = death because He said so. I can’t redefine His nature because I think He’s unfair. If He says He is good, and I don’t think He’s good, His definition trumps mine every time. This is something I’ll have to think on and pray on. Other than that, there’s really no ‘answer’ that anyone can give. These are all mysteries that I am questioning, and require faith to answer. This is between God and me.

Sorry for wasting time. I appreciate all the answers given. It was prideful of me to ask these things that can’t be given a definitive answer.

Why is your name PeaceInChrist?

 

[grannymh]

I have been struggling with this:

God is almighty. He is infinite. He is pure good. In fact, He is ALL that is good. So after Adam’s sin, why did God decide that the penalty for sin be death?

In my humble opinion, the real struggle is due to incomplete knowledge of Original Sin.

First, God did not commit Original Sin. Adam did. The penalty of death was attached to the action of Original Sin. Original Sin was not an action of God. Human death occurred because of the free-choice action of Adam.

Did God observe Adam’s action? Obviously, God observed Adam. Did God observe the effects of Adam’s sin? Obviously, yes. Other posters have recounted God’s actions following the observance of Adam freely committing Original Sin.

Assuming that people know Who God is, it is then obvious that there was a difference in status between God the Creator and the creature lovingly known as Adam. Adam’s status was that the whole human race was in him “as one body of one man.” This unity of humankind is why Adam received original holiness not for himself alone, but for all his descendants. Original Sin did not change Adam’s status as progenitor of human nature. Original Sin did not change God’s nature, but it did wound Adam’s human nature which was then transmitted by propagation to his descendants, including us.

Sources: Genesis 1:1; Genesis 2: 15-17; Genesis 3: 2-3; Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, page 98, “Original Sin-an essential truth of the faith”, paragraphs 388-409

 

[grannymh]

Sorry, but after thinking a bit, I’d like the thread closed. This isn’t something that will be answered. I can’t just ask God why He did something a certain way. Sin = death because He said so. I can’t redefine His nature because I think He’s unfair. If He says He is good, and I don’t think He’s good, His definition trumps mine every time. This is something I’ll have to think on and pray on. Other than that, there’s really no ‘answer’ that anyone can give. These are all mysteries that I am questioning, and require faith to answer. This is between God and me.

Sorry for wasting time. I appreciate all the answers given. It was prideful of me to ask these things that can’t be given a definitive answer.

There are definitive answers to basic Catholic questions such as what you are asking.
As Catholics, we can ask God why. This is because Jesus said He would not leave us orphans. He would send us an Advocate, the Holy Spirit Who would guide the Catholic Church in matters of Faith and morals. By studying the fully complete Catholic doctrines, not the watered down versions, one will find God’s answers to why. (Source: Chapter 14, Gospel of John)

The difficulty is that there have been years, where the realities in the first three chapters of Genesis have been put aside for a variety of reasons. Because of wolves in sheep’s clothing, sincere people ask this question “Should Catholic apologists teach the reality of Adam & Eve?” (Source: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=721102)

As a start to finding answers about the human condition, one should slowly study, even meditate on paragraphs 355-421 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. This is not a page-turner.

 

[JRKH]

I have been struggling with this:

To a certain extent we all struggle with this…So don’t feel alone.

God is almighty. He is infinite. He is pure good. In fact, He is ALL that is good. So after Adam’s sin, why did God decide that the penalty for sin be death?

Here is the first problem. The consequence of eating of the forbidden tree was in place and shared with Adam BEFORE the sin occurred (Gen 2:16-17). Eve too knew of this consequence (Gen 3:2-3)
So the penalty was “decided” before - and not after - the fact.

God could have chosen any punishment. He’s God, after all. He could have brought them back to grace without cursing the entirety of creation because of their sin. In fact, doesn’t that show a kind of impotence, that God allowed the entirety of creation to be distorted and wrecked by a simple action of two of His creatures? Either that, or He is an extraordinarily harsh judge.

I’m not sure where you are getting the idea that God cursed all of creation due to Adam’s sin…I do not see that in Genesis, but maybe I am missing something.

Yes - I suppose that God could have set things up differently but He did not. We do not know why.
But the fact remains that God told Adam and Eve that there would be severe consequences should they disobey His one command, and His action after the sin was consistent with what He had told them.

My own take on the matter is that the spirit of man was still evolving and that he was simply not ready to handle the knowledge of good and evil…hence the prohibition on eating. However - the temptation had to be there as part of our spiritual growth. Learning obedience and reliance on God.

Then, why did God send Himself, to die, for the penalty that He Himself imposed in the first place? I mean, He’s God! He could have done anything to save us from sin. HE GOT TO DECIDE THE PENALTY FOR SIN! And He chose death, so that He had to come die for us, and then call Himself good for doing it! God is supposed to be all that is good, right? So why did He impose this penalty, that would lead to the suffering of billions of His creations, and that allowed concupiscence into the world, so that not only do we have to deal with suffering and disease and death and pain and all kinds of torments, but ALSO have essentially very little control over our own wills in the process?

It troubles me when I see and read these kinds of things as it seems to me to demonstrate a very limited world view. Yes, corporeal suffering and death are a reality, yet we profess to believe in the immortal soul. If our soul is right with God, then what fear can suffering and death in this life hold for us?
To me - this is one of the primary reasons why God chose to do what He did - to come to us, to teach us and then die in the manner He did - only to rise again.
Now we are old enough - mature enough - to deal with this knowledge of Good and Evil…assuming that we are humble enough to return to the garden of submission to, and existence in, God.
Once we have done this, once we have responded to his offer of grace - all else pales to insignificance…Even questions of “why” He chose to do things in the manner that He did.

I mean, COME ON! Angels had unhindered wills and intellects, and even ONE THIRD of them chose to go against God! If they chose death over life, with perfect intellects and full control of their wills, why would God impose these curses on us, which stack the deck heavily against us? How is this love? God even said that most people would take the road to destruction. If you were in control of everything, why would you impose a penalty on your children that prevented many of them from returning to you???

Note what you say here…“most people would take the road to destruction”…The road is not imposed upon them. They have the knowledge of Good and Evil…They Choose.
…“why would you impose a penalty on your children that prevented many of them from returning to you”…At no time (at least since the resurrection) did God prevent anyone from turning to Him.

So, essentially, I’m confused at how God can be all good and loving, while simultaneously imposing death upon His creations because of an action of one of their ancestors, and not only death, but also the internal desire for sin, which prevents many (even those who make an effort) from being freed from sin. I can’t seem to reconcile in my mind the decision of God to impose death, suffering, and concupiscence, and then sacrifice Himself to save us from His own imposed penalty. Yes, I realize Adam brought sin into the world, but like I said, it was God who decided the penalties that will lead the majority of humanity to Hell, and the ‘plan’ for offering salvation by having Himself killed. I am entirely confused.

Consider carefully what the alternative is to the way that God chose to set things up.
Would you have preferred it if God had left us in an infantile state…one that is barely above the animals? Would it have been better to be an “automaton” unable to think and have free will and just “react” to given stimuli without recognition or understanding? Would such an existence fulfill what God had in store for us?
As it is, God has not only given us a difficult path, He has also given us guidance, Love, and support. Those who choose to avail themselves of that guidance, Love and support are in good shape. Those who choose not to…well…it’s their choice.

The above is somewhat random…but I hope that it might contain some worthwhile thoughts for you.

Peace
James

 

[spencer2]

Penalties for actions show the magnitude or seriousness of the offense. The measure of willful sin is death. Why should we suffer and struggle for the sin of our first parents obviously shows that even though we are individuals we are still one body that feels the effects if one organ or tissue is diseased. Free will gives the ability to love or hate. We cannot do either without it. To allow the serpent in our affairs trys our will and brings forth growth and more love (or hate if it makes you bitter). It’s all up to you what you choose.
Also understand that the “WHY” question cannot be answered in it’s entirety. What’s left unanswered must be taken with faith.

 

[JRKH]

Sorry, but after thinking a bit, I’d like the thread closed. This isn’t something that will be answered. I can’t just ask God why He did something a certain way. Sin = death because He said so. I can’t redefine His nature because I think He’s unfair. If He says He is good, and I don’t think He’s good, His definition trumps mine every time. This is something I’ll have to think on and pray on. Other than that, there’s really no ‘answer’ that anyone can give. These are all mysteries that I am questioning, and require faith to answer. This is between God and me.

Sorry for wasting time. I appreciate all the answers given. It was prideful of me to ask these things that can’t be given a definitive answer.

I disagree that you are prideful for asking such questions. Please do not beat yourself up like that.
I do agree that we might not be able to give you definitive answers, but we might be able to give you some thoughts or ideas for you to ponder…and in that pondering and prayerful consideration…God might just give you the understanding and the peace that you seek.

Be patient with yourself.

Peace
James

 

[grannymh]

My own take on the matter is that the spirit of man was still evolving and that he was simply not ready to handle the knowledge of good and evil…hence the prohibition on eating. However - the temptation had to be there as part of our spiritual growth. Learning obedience and reliance on God.

This idea, certainly illogical, of Adam somehow not ready to handle the knowledge of good and evil, truly surprised me when I saw it repeated and repeated on CAF. It is certainly far from basic Catholic doctrines regarding human nature.

 

[JRKH]

This idea, certainly illogical, of Adam somehow not ready to handle the knowledge of good and evil, truly surprised me when I saw it repeated and repeated on CAF. It is certainly far from basic Catholic doctrines regarding human nature.

Well - of course I would disagree that it is illogical - - but it may well be far from “basic Catholic doctrines regarding human nature”.
That is why whenever I express this idea I always try to make sure to provide a caveat…that it is an opinion and not an expression of doctrine.

Peace
James