God's commands and human conscience

[uglygal]

I am currently pondering what is expected of a person when a ‘command’ of God is repugnant to that persons conscience? To make my question clearer I will use an example I have at times seen in these forums - Bob believes that homosexuality is not a sin and homosexuals should have the same right to have relationships, families, marriage etc as heterosexual people. Yet he is Catholic and accordingly, his faith teaches him that it is God’s command that homosexual activity is a sin and homosexuals cannot marry, have families, etc. What is expected of Bob when a ‘command’ of God (according to his faith) is repugnant to his conscience?

I have used this as an example to provide some clarity for the question I am asking, but please don’t limit your responses to this particular example. I don’t want this to be about the issue of homosexuality as there are many threads that deal with that. I would appreciate some answers and perspectives on the dilemma of being 'commanded; something by your God that is repugnant to your conscience.

Thankyou in advance for your answers, and please may people of all faiths participate. It would be good to see how Catholicism may (or may not) differ to other faiths.

UG

 

[Reuben_J]

We are expected to obey God’s command, period. It is not about us, it is about God. It does not even arise whether we have to make a decision or whether it is about what we think, we still have to obey God. We are often misguided sometimes because the human that is in us is often stronger than the Jesus who is in us. That’s why we should constantly try to have the heart of the Father and to be in communion with him so that we know him and thus know what he wants.

Very often we are in doubt, not that we are clear whether it is right or wrong. In this case, we should pray and ask for God’s grace until we are clear about what he wants or in reality until we know God’s teaching fully. This thing can come about through prayer. Our conscience tells us but we have to submit ourselves to God’s governance first.

God bless.

 

[Julian0404]

The Catholic Church teaches that we are NOT to violate our consciences. Our conscience is to be our guide in times when we are confused and without certain guidence.

However, we are also suppose to have a well formed conscience and pursue all the facts and teachings necessary to “form” our conscience. To that end, the Catholic Church puts forth the Cathecism, the Teachings of the Early Fathers, the Dogma’s, the letters and bulls of the Pope’s etc. etc. to assist us with the wealth of information to “form” our conscience.

As a Catholic there is only two things required, Faith and Obiedence - paraphrase from a quote by St. John Newman - recently beatified.

So the dilema is where does or will your obiedence violate your conscience? As Catholics we do not understand ALL that GOD has taught, because HIS ways are so much higher than our ways. We can never expect to grasp many of HIS teachings, but we are expected to be obedient to them in faith.

If you find that being obedient is a violation of your conscience, then again, the Church teaches that you MUST follow your conscience. That is not a “green light” to embrace and live a life of sin, it is rather a statement that neither GOD nor the Church desires robots who do not wish to love and live with GOD. If you cannot accept a life according to the wishes of GOD, you do not have to live as such. BUT the consequences of living outside of HIS ways, truths, and life are eternal, so before you chose such, ensure you have truly exhausted ALL of the teachings and tools of learning available to you, which are to aid you in chosing life and eternal happiness.

 

[Kkb]

The love of God makes us want to obey his commands .

 

[Thoughtfulone]

The Catholic Church teaches that we are NOT to violate our consciences. Our conscience is to be our guide in times when we are confused and without certain guidence.

However, we are also suppose to have a well formed conscience and pursue all the facts and teachings necessary to “form” our conscience. To that end, the Catholic Church puts forth the Cathecism, the Teachings of the Early Fathers, the Dogma’s, the letters and bulls of the Pope’s etc. etc. to assist us with the wealth of information to “form” our conscience.

As a Catholic there is only two things required, Faith and Obiedence - paraphrase from a quote by St. John Newman - recently beatified.

So the dilema is where does or will your obiedence violate your conscience? As Catholics we do not understand ALL that GOD has taught, because HIS ways are so much higher than our ways. We can never expect to grasp many of HIS teachings, but we are expected to be obedient to them in faith.

If you find that being obedient is a violation of your conscience, then again, the Church teaches that you MUST follow your conscience. That is not a “green light” to embrace and live a life of sin, it is rather a statement that neither GOD nor the Church desires robots who do not wish to love and live with GOD. If you cannot accept a life according to the wishes of GOD, you do not have to live as such. BUT the consequences of living outside of HIS ways, truths, and life are eternal, so before you chose such, ensure you have truly exhausted ALL of the teachings and tools of learning available to you, which are to aid you in chosing life and eternal happiness.

So if you have done your due diligence to form your conscience but are still at odds with the CC and follow your conscience as per Church teaching, are you guilty of sin? Can you go to Hell?

 

[Pug]

I would appreciate some answers and perspectives on the dilemma of being 'commanded; something by your God that is repugnant to your conscience.

My natural response to your original question is, if you think God is telling you to do an atrocity, like kill women and children, then don’t do it. Then, after not doing it, I might take a step back and try to figure out why you thought God wanted you to do such a thing in the first place.

But your chosen example seems more about teachings, rather than orders or positive commands. Perhaps you are asking an example like, if you think the teaching about hell is repugnant, what ought you do? I’d find out the exact parameters of that particular teaching; what believing it really entails, what actions on your part are required. Find out if what repels you is merely the way people tend to explain it, or the what so-and-so believes about it, rather than what must actually be believed or done about it. I’d also consider whether the teaching is of the type that cannot be well understood by an ordinary human (like the Trinity), especially in light of our finite, easily distracted, emotionally jumbled selves. You don’t list your religion, but I suggest you pray about whatever issue or “command” it is that is bugging you.

 

[seeker57]

I am currently pondering what is expected of a person when a ‘command’ of God is repugnant to that persons conscience? . . .

I would appreciate some answers and perspectives on the dilemma of being 'commanded; something by your God that is repugnant to your conscience.

Thankyou in advance for your answers, and please may people of all faiths participate. It would be good to see how Catholicism may (or may not) differ to other faiths.

UG

While I find the Catholic perspectives expressed here interesting, they are juxtaposed to what I, and many other Unitarian Universalists, believe.

We don’t accept there are “commands” by God, therefore, we wouldn’t have the opportunity to find ourselves in the dilemma you describe.

Because we draw on many religious and secular ideas to guide our faith, the type of dogmatic response described in earlier posts would not be possible.

Just thought I would offer a different perspective.

Seeker

 

[Julian0404]

So if you have done your due diligence to form your conscience but are still at odds with the CC and follow your conscience as per Church teaching, are you guilty of sin? Can you go to Hell?

Our conscience is our “guide” not our GOD. Even if our conscience leads us away from GOD, we are still advised to follow it, as the Church will not request that we violate the “free will” given to us by GOD.

However, if our “free will” as exercised through following our conscience leads us away from GOD, we are still subject to HIS judgement. And if that direction is to violate HIS commandments, the outcome may be hell for all eternity.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

Our conscience is our “guide” not our GOD. Even if our conscience leads us away from GOD, we are still advised to follow it, as the Church will not request that we violate the “free will” given to us by GOD.

However, if our “free will” as exercised through following our conscience leads us away from GOD, we are still subject to HIS judgement. And if that direction is to violate HIS commandments, the outcome may be hell for all eternity.

So, following your conscience, which is against God’s will and going to Hell is preferable to going against your conscience, following God’s will and going to Heaven according to the CC?

But the CC teaches that the conscience is where God speaks personally to man, so the 2 should never diverge according to the CC.

Just another point where the CCC is extremely vague, IMO.

 

[Julian0404]

So, following your conscience, which is against God’s will and going to Hell is preferable to going against your conscience, following God’s will and going to Heaven according to the CC?

But the CC teaches that the conscience is where God speaks personally to man, so the 2 should never diverge according to the CC.

Just another point where the CCC is extremely vague, IMO.

Your using an apples and oranges comparison which I did not imply. In your comparison, the two examples of following your conscience to hell or violating your conscience to heaven is an impossibililty, as to violate your conscience is to “lie”, so that - even if you were the Pope - and you lived publicly as a saint, but privately you hated all of it, GOD would not be fooled and you would gain nothing.
It is ALWAYS preferable to chose heaven, but with the devils as an example, who lived with GOD in heaven, they themselves still chose to reject HIM. It is an either/or proposition and not a lie/heaven scenario as your examples require.

And despite GOD speaking to mans conscience, our free will will not be violated by GOD. HE does not capture us for heaven, HE allows, as HE allowed the angels, to choose HIM. And if we do not, we do not. But we cannot fool HIM into thinking we have chose HIM, when we truly have not.

 

[fhansen]

I am currently pondering what is expected of a person when a ‘command’ of God is repugnant to that persons conscience? To make my question clearer I will use an example I have at times seen in these forums - Bob believes that homosexuality is not a sin and homosexuals should have the same right to have relationships, families, marriage etc as heterosexual people. Yet he is Catholic and accordingly, his faith teaches him that it is God’s command that homosexual activity is a sin and homosexuals cannot marry, have families, etc. What is expected of Bob when a ‘command’ of God (according to his faith) is repugnant to his conscience?

I have used this as an example to provide some clarity for the question I am asking, but please don’t limit your responses to this particular example. I don’t want this to be about the issue of homosexuality as there are many threads that deal with that. I would appreciate some answers and perspectives on the dilemma of being 'commanded; something by your God that is repugnant to your conscience.

Thankyou in advance for your answers, and please may people of all faiths participate. It would be good to see how Catholicism may (or may not) differ to other faiths.

UG

One either agrees with something or they don’t. As one comes to agree with the CC on a variety of issues, they become “more Catholic”, so to speak, growing in trust of her wisdom, and, in that case, they generally give her the benefit of the doubt on other matters -expecting that those, too, will be resolved. If that doesn’t happen, they’ll probably have a problem with Catholic teachings sooner or later, if they’re honest with themselves.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

Your using an apples and oranges comparison which I did not imply. In your comparison, the two examples of following your conscience to hell or violating your conscience to heaven is an impossibililty, as to violate your conscience is to “lie”, so that - even if you were the Pope - and you lived publicly as a saint, but privately you hated all of it, GOD would not be fooled and you would gain nothing.
It is ALWAYS preferable to chose heaven, but with the devils as an example, who lived with GOD in heaven, they themselves still chose to reject HIM. It is an either/or proposition and not a lie/heaven scenario as your examples require.

And despite GOD speaking to mans conscience, our free will will not be violated by GOD. HE does not capture us for heaven, HE allows, as HE allowed the angels, to choose HIM. And if we do not, we do not. But we cannot fool HIM into thinking we have chose HIM, when we truly have not.

So it is a lie and therefore a sin for someone to violate their conscience in obedience to the CC?
And yet if someone’s conscience goes against a dogma of the CC and they follow their conscience, they are committing a sin also?

So basically, someone can, despite doing their best to form their conscience, just have it not work out in accordance with the CC and thus be doomed to Hell despite their best efforts, since they are essentially sinning no matter what they do?
And aren’t the above scenarios supposed to be impossible according to the CC since the conscience is supposed to be where God speaks to every man? And yet, many people in good conscience DO disagree with the CC very profoundly.

 

[Pug]

So it is a lie and therefore a sin for someone to violate their conscience in obedience to the CC?
And yet if someone’s conscience goes against a dogma of the CC and they follow their conscience, they are committing a sin also?

So basically, someone can, despite doing their best to form their conscience, just have it not work out in accordance with the CC and thus be doomed to Hell despite their best efforts, since they are essentially sinning no matter what they do?
And aren’t the above scenarios supposed to be impossible according to the CC since the conscience is supposed to be where God speaks to every man? And yet, many people in good conscience DO disagree with the CC very profoundly.

There is no dooming going on.

It is not a foregone conclusion that if one follows a mistaken conscience that one will go to hell. The Church does not teach this, not even for grave matter.

It would be nice if the conscience never diverged in its judgment from the judgment it ought to render , but that isn’t what happens. The CCC states, “conscience can make either a right judgment in accordance with reason and the divine law or, on the contrary, an erroneous judgment that departs from them.” If I dredge up something from Vatican 2, I can even get a quote suggesting that the conscience **frequently **errs (from invincible ignorance without losing its dignity). (GS 16)

I’m wondering if you are thinking the Church says that when our conscience says “X is wrong”, that it is because God directly feeds this judgment to our conscience and hence there could be no error, since there is nothing of man, no judgments of our reason, no attempts to recall information, no human action, etc. involved our conscience. This is not what the Church says.

 

[Sufjon]

I am currently pondering what is expected of a person when a ‘command’ of God is repugnant to that persons conscience? To make my question clearer I will use an example I have at times seen in these forums - Bob believes that homosexuality is not a sin and homosexuals should have the same right to have relationships, families, marriage etc as heterosexual people. Yet he is Catholic and accordingly, his faith teaches him that it is God’s command that homosexual activity is a sin and homosexuals cannot marry, have families, etc. What is expected of Bob when a ‘command’ of God (according to his faith) is repugnant to his conscience?

I have used this as an example to provide some clarity for the question I am asking, but please don’t limit your responses to this particular example. I don’t want this to be about the issue of homosexuality as there are many threads that deal with that. I would appreciate some answers and perspectives on the dilemma of being 'commanded; something by your God that is repugnant to your conscience.

Thankyou in advance for your answers, and please may people of all faiths participate. It would be good to see how Catholicism may (or may not) differ to other faiths.

UG

Hi Uglygal: Can you give me a little help with this one? I have read your New Testament and I have read the scriptures of my faith. I haven’t found anything that God said in either my Bible or your New Testament that was against my conscience. Regarding the New Testament I have heard interpretations of what God (Jesus) said that sounded rather obtuse, but when I read the words of Jesus on their own without someone interjecting a meaning, it makes sense to my conscience and matches my scriptures. That said, could you give an example of something Jesus actually said from the New Testament that conflicts with the conscience of a reasonable man or woman? I’m not saying that it’s not there, but I haven’t found it. I’m going on the premise that you are addressing things that God (Jesus) actually commanded or actually said, so I am assuming that we’re not talking about what someone said after Jesus was gone.Just looking for clarification, and as usual you have picked a very interesting topic.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[uglygal]

Hi Sufijon,
I didn’t have Jesus particularly in mind when I asked the question. Rather, I was thinking more of some commands given in the OT. For example, being the “animal pity party” that I am, I thought of the hypothetical situation had I been one of the Israelites receiving the sacrificial commands to slice heifers in half etc.
Or had I been one of the Israelites hearing the command to slaughter the Caananites, including all women, children, animals etc.
Or had I been Abraham and commanded to kill another (my child) as a sacrifice to God.

I am well aware that I am not as holy as the people who obeyed God’s commands in these instances, but I was just hypothetically thinking of myself in those situations. Hence I asked the question about how one reconciles obeying a command of God if that command is contrary to ones conscience.

I hope that makes sense

I also appreciate all the very informative replies I have received.
thankyou for participating

 

[Sufjon]

Hi Sufijon,
I didn’t have Jesus particularly in mind when I asked the question. Rather, I was thinking more of some commands given in the OT. For example, being the “animal pity party” that I am, I thought of the hypothetical situation had I been one of the Israelites receiving the sacrificial commands to slice heifers in half etc.
Or had I been one of the Israelites hearing the command to slaughter the Caananites, including all women, children, animals etc.
Or had I been Abraham and commanded to kill another (my child) as a sacrifice to God.

I am well aware that I am not as holy as the people who obeyed God’s commands in these instances, but I was just hypothetically thinking of myself in those situations. Hence I asked the question about how one reconciles obeying a command of God if that command is contrary to ones conscience.

I hope that makes sense

I also appreciate all the very informative replies I have received.
thankyou for participating

Dear Uglygal: Firstly I believe that God gave us an intellect that He expects us to use and that it is your duty to seek the truth and ask probing questions. You are doing just that. Secondly, I would question the assessment that you are not holy in comparison with the people in the Bible. Your compassion for animals, and other people without regard to their orientation suggests to me that you are just the sort of person who is getting the message. For most people the security of having a set of rules, and a code to live by gives some sense of security and assurance of the long-term survival of ego or self identity that caused their suffering in the first place. I believe that only once a person “hits the wall” and is ready to give up that self are they in a position to shed that security and find truth. I believe that is when one is actually in a position to find God. It’s hard work, but I really think you have to “hit the wall” before you can start. You have to get so fed up that you are willing to give up some of these securities and get to the truth of the matter.

I have read the New Testament many times. I have read the Old Testament only a few time. I had the exact same questions you are having about the OT. If you are really having these questions there are some very good books that can help. I personally think that this book helped me with that quite a bit:

johnshelbyspong.com/store/sins_of_the_scripture.aspx

After I read that a few years back, I was able to put these questions behind me and get about the business of finding some real spirituality in my life. It also meant that I had to start over. I did and I’m glad.

Anyway, as I said the first time I met you on your other post - “trust your intuition.” You have a good heart. Follow it

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[uglygal]

“Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, “Strike me!” But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, “Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me.” And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him”

(1 Kings 20:35-36)

 

[Sufjon]

“Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, “Strike me!” But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, “Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me.” And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him”

(1 Kings 20:35-36)

Exactly.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Publisher]

While I find the Catholic perspectives expressed here interesting, they are juxtaposed to what I, and many other Unitarian Universalists, believe.

We don’t accept there are “commands” by God, therefore, we wouldn’t have the opportunity to find ourselves in the dilemma you describe.

Because we draw on many religious and secular ideas to guide our faith, the type of dogmatic response described in earlier posts would not be possible.

Just thought I would offer a different perspective.

Seeker

Friends seek to “measure” their beliefs and actions through the life of Jesus of Nazareth. We do not believe the “commands of God” as recorded in the Bible are directly from God in the sense that “XYZ must be adhered to or one is not following God”…the Bible is a record of our forebearers in faith experience with God. This “experience” was interpreted through thier own culture and time.

Friends seek to understand God through the “testimony” of those who have gone before us and understand through the lens of our own experiences with the Eternal.

Jesus of Nazareth is the pinacle of God’s disclosure to humanity…and the man from Nazareth consolidated all the “commands of God” in two statements…“Love the Lord your God with all your heart…and love your neighbor as yourself.” All “laws” or “commands” must be viewed through this single “lens”…IMO.

 

[Loml]

So basically, someone can, despite doing their best to form their conscience, just have it not work out in accordance with the CC and thus be doomed to Hell despite their best efforts, since they are essentially sinning no matter what they do?.

No, if you try to develop your conscience in accordance with the Church, and you aren’t misinformed, then it is not possible to just ‘happen to’ reach another conclusion. One must freely choose not to conform their conscience to the teaching of the Church. It doesn’t happen by accident.