God's Contradictions. .?

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MichelleEsme

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I’ve recently had a conversation with an athiest friend of mine. We’ve been good friends for quite awhile, yet in the last 5 or so years he converted to athiesm. We have friendly debates, nothing gets ‘rude’ or ‘mean’ at all, and he respects my beliefs. Yet the other day he posed a question that I still don’t know how to answer. . .

We were talking about God, the existence of God, and “contradictions”. Something we were talking about is how God is a perfect God, one whom is perfect and infinite and does not desire or need anything; atleast from what I’ve learned in my Catholic school. However, he posed the question, “If God never needed anything, or desires anything at all, then why did He create us? Why would He have the desire to want us to love Him? Or have the desire for people to worship Him?”

He then asked another question, “If God loves us, and truly cares for us. Then why does he create humans that have serious mental disabilities or diseases and such that cripple them from normal life-style living? What about the babies that are miscarriages? What about them? Why would He do that to His own people?”

I don’t know how to answer them. Could any of you help?

Thanks so much!
  • Michelle
 
God created us to share in his divine nature, the source of all that is good and true and beautiful. He created us not for what we could give him, but for what he could give us.

Why do people suffer? Because of free will. We cannot be made in the image and likeness of God without free will, and we choose badly.

In the world your friend imagines (no suffering, no death) there is no free will, and thus there is no humanity.

Besides, why does your friend the atheist care about human suffering any more than the erosion of a rock by the pounding sea? It’s all just atoms and molecules, after all.
 
If God never needed anything, or desires anything at all, then why did He create us? Why would He have the desire to want us to love Him? Or have the desire for people to worship Him?"

God is, as your atheist friend said is “infinatley perfect” and has no need of us…but God is love, and the nature of love is to constantly consume itself it pouring itself out and uplifting…this explains God’s relationship with us. He does not have the desire to be worshiped…it is a gift to permit us to worship Him. He needs nothing…we need the chance to connect with Him. We hear God describing Himself by using the symbolism of parental figures and Marriage…It’s why the church marries people…marriage is a symbol of God in this world. A married couple in love certainly don’t need children…there is a lot of burden in children… However, their pure love …by its very act…is lifegiving and pours itself out.

"If God loves us, and truly cares for us. Then why does he create humans that have serious mental disabilities or diseases and such that cripple them from normal life-style living? What about the babies that are miscarriages? What about them? Why would He do that to His own people?"

Let us remember that sickness and disabilities and pain were NEVER a part of God’s original plan. Let your friend read the first few chapters of genesis to understand this. God makes a world pleasing to the senses of us humans and gives us dominian over EVERYTHING…and a beautiful home to live in that was called a “paridise” …no pain, no suffering …only happiness! That’s what God wanted.

When we chose to become “gods” …to discern for ourselves what is good and evil and to mistrust God…we took it upon ourselves to make rules in a world that already had limits and rules set by God and that unfortunatley caused a lot of pain (anaology: you decide that you don’t believe in gravity…you go to a tall building and jump off in defiance of gravity…you break every bone in your body…by your defiance…you prove Gods law of how He made the world! Same thing happened in the garden…we rejected Gods dominion and the way to live in a world thereby causing us pain).

So disease, death and such enters …through our fault … not God’s. We had every reason to trust Him since He called us into existence when He had no need to and gave us a world that was made for our liking and gave us authority over everything.

Even though we caused our own troubles…God permits pain and suffering to allow us to redeem ourselves, to grow …in short…to bring about a greater good !

There is a redemptive aspect to those who submit themselves to Gods will when we come across cases as your friend suggested. We now have a new choice (as they did in the garden)…God permits these cases to offer redemption, growth and virtue to bring people back to God.

On top of all this…remember , that even due to our own wretchedness that has brought any “bad” stuff to us…our God is sooo humble…that He also even participated in our suffering.

My people, What have I done to you? How have I offended you? Answer me!
I led you out of Egypt; but you led your Savior to the Cross.
For forty years I led you safely through the desert,
I fed you with manna from heaven,
and brought you to the land of plenty; But you led your Savior to the Cross.
O, My people! What have I done to you that you should testify against me?

Like in the garden…we need to trust in Gods goodness (we have no reason not to).
 
I am having the same issues in that I study with Jehovah Witnesses once a week. They try to convert me and we spar. We have become good friends who enjoy discussing the Bible. A couple points that I have not been able to adequately come to terms with.
Would a loving God punish us forever in burning Hell? Would not it be a worse but more humane thing to just return to ashes?
It states in the Bible when your dead you have no conscience. Des not that mean you are just dead, until the second coming?
God loves children and says we must be like children to get to heaven. Yet we Baptize children in stead of confirming with their parents to raise in the church. When they have an idea about religion then they can be Baptized. Where there an children Baptized in the Bible?
I am Catholic, went to catholic school for seen years.
Thanks for your time and I believe these forums are very helpful
 
Would a loving God punish us forever in burning hell

Well, He would certainly permit us to go there…that’s very biblically stated even by Christ Himself! Where’s the love ? It’s in the free will. He certainly dosen’t want us to go there He “wishes all men to be saved”. God loves us so much, He gives us a free will (it takes a free will to be able to love). He gives us every opportunity to come to Him…and hopes in it ! God our fathoer HOPES in us coming to Him (remember the story of the prodigal son Jesus gave us to show the love of our father! The father in that story is actually "watching out for his son to come home!!!..it even states he notices his son coming from a far off !).

The dead are alive…here’s a few verses to prove it:

Wisdom 3:1-6 - the souls of the just are in the hand of God
Mark 12:26-27 - he is the God of the living, not of the dead
Mark 9:4 - Jesus seen conversing with Elijah and Moses
Luke 16:19-30 - departed rich man intercedes for brothers
Luke 23:43 - To the thief on the Cross: “this day you will be with me in paradise”
Hebrews 12:1 - we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses
Revelation 6:9-11 - martyrs under the altar want earthly vindication
Revelation 20:4 - saw the souls of those that had been beheaded

I don’t know where you got your info on baptism… we do baptize children because it’s best to permitt them to enter into the spiritual life right away. The church DOES NOT baptize if we don’t have some assurance that the child will be raised catholic (they have to promise during the rite.). We will baptize in the case of emergencies however (baby may die …dosen’t matter if parents promise to raise them catholic or not at that point).

We baptize babies because …it’s not their choice to be loved and accepted into God. God already made that decision by their coming into existence …“It was not you who chose me but I who chose you”. …as it says in scripture.
Why did God insist on the circumcison of 8 day old babies ? They were being marked to be a people set a part , to show they were chosen and a part of Gods people, …circumcison has been connected to baptism: colosians 2:11

You are very brave to do a scripture study with a witness. They use a very odd “bible”. Their translation was done by three men…none of whom had the tools to do the translating. AND they have brackets over certain areas in their “bible” where they blatently added their own words to help push their doctrine. Good luck and be careful!
 
Ask your friend the following questions:
  1. Can you produce a blueprint of a world in which misfortunes never - or rarely - occur?
  2. Do you believe it would be better if life had never existed on this planet?
  3. Do you wish you had never been born? If not why not?
 
snarflemike said:
God created us to share in his divine nature, the source of all that is good and true and beautiful. He created us not for what we could give him, but for what he could give us.
Click to expand...
So what does he give us, exactly? Beyond rules and threats, that is…
Why do people suffer? Because of free will. We cannot be made in the image and likeness of God without free will, and we choose badly.
Click to expand...
Free will doesn’t come into it for those born with genetic diseases or painful disabilities. Where’s their choice?
In the world your friend imagines (no suffering, no death) there is no free will, and thus there is no humanity.
Click to expand...
Rubbish - there could very easily be choice and freedom with a much lesser extent of suffering than what demonstrably exists.
Besides, why does your friend the atheist care about human suffering any more than the erosion of a rock by the pounding sea? It’s all just atoms and molecules, after all.
Click to expand...
Why does anyone who believes in eternal life in paradise care about anything that happens in anyone’s mortal existence?

Atheists care about this life because we’re convinced it’s the only one we get - and goodness knows it’s long enough whilst we’re in it to notice when it’s not going well.
 
tonyrey said:
Ask your friend the following questions:
  1. Can you produce a blueprint of a world in which misfortunes never - or rarely - occur?
Click to expand...
Why should nonbelievers have to do any such thing? The burden of proof lies with those making the positive assertion that a perfect God exists, despite the all-too-evident suffering in the world. You have to explain why there is suffering when you also assert the existence of a perfect God - and the free will defence just doesn’t cut it, because it only covers suffering caused by intentional actions. Your God’s only possible excuse is that it doesn’t actually exist.
  1. Do you believe it would be better if life had never existed on this planet?
Click to expand...
We would never have been aware of any difference if it had not, so your question is not relevant to the argument.
  1. Do you wish you had never been born? If not why not?
Click to expand...
Some people are in a position to honestly answer yes. If a perfect god existed, who actually cared about the wellbeing of sentient creatures, there would be no such people.
 
Sair said:
  1. Can you produce a blueprint of a world in which misfortunes never - or rarely - occur?
Click to expand...
The burden of proof lies with those making the positive assertions:
  1. This world is self-explanatory
  2. Life is ultimately purposeless
  3. Good and evil are myths
  4. Free will is an illusion
  5. Persons are no more than mammals
  6. Suffering outweighs the value of life
  7. The principles of liberty, equality and fraternity are simply human conventions.
You have to explain why there is suffering when you also assert the existence of a perfect God - and the free will defence just doesn’t cut it, because it only covers suffering caused by intentional actions. Your God’s only possible excuse is that it doesn’t actually exist.
Click to expand...
You have to explain how all suffering could be prevented **in a world subject to the laws of nature. **
2. Do you believe it would be better if life had never existed on this planet?
Click to expand...
We would never have been aware of any difference if it had not, so your question is not relevant to the argument.
Click to expand...

The question is highly relevant because it affects people’s decision whether to have children…
3. Do you wish you had never been born? If not why not?
Click to expand...
Some people are in a position to honestly answer yes.
Click to expand...

The misfortunes of a minority do not justify the non-existence of the majority.
If a perfect god existed, who actually cared about the wellbeing of sentient creatures, there would be no such people.
Click to expand...
This opinion presupposes privileged knowledge into the nature of reality…
Click to expand...
 
MichelleEsme said:
I’ve recently had a conversation with an athiest friend of mine. We’ve been good friends for quite awhile, yet in the last 5 or so years he converted to athiesm. We have friendly debates, nothing gets ‘rude’ or ‘mean’ at all, and he respects my beliefs. Yet the other day he posed a question that I still don’t know how to answer. . .

We were talking about God, the existence of God, and “contradictions”. Something we were talking about is how God is a perfect God, one whom is perfect and infinite and does not desire or need anything; atleast from what I’ve learned in my Catholic school. However, he posed the question, “If God never needed anything, or desires anything at all, then why did He create us? Why would He have the desire to want us to love Him? Or have the desire for people to worship Him?”

He then asked another question, “If God loves us, and truly cares for us. Then why does he create humans that have serious mental disabilities or diseases and such that cripple them from normal life-style living? What about the babies that are miscarriages? What about them? Why would He do that to His own people?”

I don’t know how to answer them. Could any of you help?

Thanks so much!
  • Michelle
Click to expand...
Michelle; I have an athiest friend also with whom I have to debate with now and then. One time I thought I had gotten through to him a little when we were speaking about “the good”. I’m not the best at this kind of stuff like many of the people here, but there seems to be an interesting commonality with the human person that we can work from; that is the search for the good.

Your friend’s question “Why would He do that to His own people?” seems to get to the heart of it. If a person is asking why God would do this or that, it pre-supposes that if they were God, they wouldn’t do such a thing. I’ll put myself in the athiest position. If I was God, I would not allow suffering because I would be completely good. I would be good to the sick, poor, lonely, broken hearted, disabled, elderly and all the rest. Everything would be wonderful and perfect always. If I were God… only if I were God… (see - why do people want to play God?) They have an inner sense of what is …

really bad…bad…not too bad…ok…better…good…pretty good…very good

The conscious convicts all of us - this is different than other creatures of the earth. We think about what God should do, because we are measuring the events in our environment by this guide. Even the athiest.

I think sometimes, its an uphill battle, but this is one thing that both our last two popes have written about and it helps to understand the nature of the conscious. I think it helps to better understand ourselves as well, with that even if the argument is fruitless, the concept isn’t.

Best wishes.
 
Wow. Thank you so much everyone for all of the answers you’ve given! :hug3: I even learned quite a lot myself. Thank you so much(: I hope everything goes well.

:tiphat: - Michelle
 
Sair said:
Why should nonbelievers have to do any such thing? The burden of proof lies with those making the positive assertion that a perfect God exists, despite the all-too-evident suffering in the world. You have to explain why there is suffering when you also assert the existence of a perfect God - and the free will defence just doesn’t cut it, because it only covers suffering caused by intentional actions. Your God’s only possible excuse is that it doesn’t actually exist.
Click to expand...
By this line of reasoning (?), I claim that the existence of joy, happiness, love, truth, beauty, goodness proves that God exists, because a world in which God didn’t exist would have none of those things. And the burden of proof will lie with you if you claim otherwise.
 
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