My honest advice is to forget the ‘Fine-Tuned Universe’ argument. Any skeptic, or non-believer, or scientist, or rationalist that knows anything is going to make short work of that. You might have better luck with the “human brain is so complex” argument, because it’s more difficult for the lay-person to articulate a succinct explanation for the complexity of the human brain.
Fair enough, I wasn’t aware that is was so easy to make ‘short work’ of the ‘fine-tuned universe.’
Don’t worry, it’s not.
I am not using it for evangelical purposes. Argumentative purposes, to a certain extent. Thank you for your insight, nature stating that energy cannot be created or destroyed is interesting. I will study that more. God bless.That was very nice of you, ASimon
It depends on your reasoning. Personally, yes that is a strong indication of God, and I am awed by the beauty and complexity of earth. To me that is a strong indication of God.
If you are using it for evangelical and argumentative purposes, it won’t work. Well, the brain one might, but the location of earth probably won’t. I think they would say that human life is a result of being at the proper distance from the sun, and that it was merely chance. I don’t know, for sure, however.
Personally, I believe that something had to come from something, particularly from a superior existence. I don’t believe that something can come from nothing. Where did the first molecule come from etc,and how could that molecule come from nothing. They usually counter that if God came from nothing then why couldn’t the universe, in which there really is not definite answer. It makes more sense to me that it had to have came from God, who is not bound by physics or laws of nature. Nature says that energy cannot be created or destroyed, so where did it come from? How could energy be infinite, as in not created, and not have an origin? It had to come from outside of nature, and thus it came from God. That is my argument for proof of God’s existence.
hogwash. It’s an excellent point to make because the fine tuning of the universe DOES point to the idea of a rational creator.
The Universe is not fine-tuned for our existence - that was my point. And my advice to eo_chibears was that if he tried to run that argument past any skeptic who knew anything, he was going to get shot down, and he’d be better off finding a different set of arguments to make the case.
It’s not, except from the perspective of the average atheist, who will accept anything and everything in attempt to find something that helps them believe God isn’t there.
My logic behind the fine-tuned universe comes from the perfect blend of chararteristics that allow life on earth. Some of these characteristics being our atmosphere, range of temperatures, right amount of carbon, a molten core with the right elements and temperatures to sustain the planet and the presence of a sufficient magnetic field to keep everything together. I am definitely not a scientist, but I have done a lot of research on our planet. I know I am not an expert though.
It’s okay - nobody needs to be an expert to play either side of this argument.
That’s not the point though. The argument is that the planet is fine-tuned to allow life. Either it is fine tuned by chance or by God there really isn’t much definitive evidence either way.
What do you think of my idea of deistic solipisism. Perhaps you really don’t exsist and I made you up for whatever reason?
Natural disasters and weather patterns cause chaos. There is no debating that. I don’t believe that means there is not a God though. Much of the world is covered in salt water, but God did not only create humans. A huge portion of life on this planet can only survive in the oceans. The various climates of the world require us to protect ourselves from the elements, but it’s a stretch to say that because of this there is no God. I see your points though. I certainly can’t explain why things happened the way they did throughout the earth’s history.
What is it about my list of items that does not address this assertion that our planet is finely-tuned to allow life? I’m saying it isn’t. Honestly, when I look at the evidence, I think the planet is finely tuned to kill us all, and not miss us after we’re gone. We’re very lucky to be here today, but that’s not at all the same as saying we’re meant to be here today.
We don’t need natural disasters causing immense human tragedy and suffering in order to appreciate things like love and free will. We have plenty of opportunities to appreciate love without experiencing catastrophic misfortune.
I think it’s impact is going to have some dependencies on the personality and knowledge/beliefs of the person to which it is presented. There is an emotional component to it in it possibly invoking a since of awe or wonder which can contribute towards swaying someone. My view is that when you do find life you will typically find the type of life that is suited for the environment in which you find it; if one could move the earth further from the sun I would expect some life to die out and the life that finds the new environment advantageous to flourish. That thought has a diminishing effect (and diminishing affect) on the argument for me.
That sounds like a form of panentheism.
I’m sorry, bad phrasing. The point I was trying to make is that the planet is fine tuned to allow life to arise and live for at least a period of time. The Earth is perfect for growing life which is why we find it here in abundance compared to other parts of the universe where the best you can find is bacteria.
Yes, I completely agree. That is why it isn’t convincing. I see flowers, plants, and magnificent snowcapped mountains and I think it is beautiful and evidence that God exists. But to an atheist, or anyone really, it is equally arguable that we are a result of earth being in the position it is rather than earth being the result of our designed existence.