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Samson01
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Sort of with a twist, mctwist maybe. If it is God and me, then who are you but my entertainment for the moment.? Solipisim is the 3rd sin in Levayan satanism for a reason. Where is the argument against it? Perhaps you are just a pixal in my own eye. What difference is that from being a pixal on a monitor to my eye reflecting an image? Is your blue the same as my blue? What of those I know that are colorblind? By my own account, who are you should I turn off this black box in front of me? Perception.
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Heuchler
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Well I know the Earth is good at creating and sustaining life for at least periods of time because we are here.
Great point but in Heaven, your Faith is actualized through seeing the Lord and it doesn’t apply in the same way as on Earth. Your hope is also actualized in that you have reached what you have searched for. Love is a bit trickier. In Heaven you are with the person you literally were made for who can provide all we need. You are literally one with God and “complete”. There has also been the idea expressed by theologians that we may be able to optionally suffer so as to express our love.
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cerad2
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But that of course is not what you said. You made an authoritative statement that only bacteria could be found elsewhere in the universe.
Do you see the fundamental issue with declaring that it’s impossible for god to do something on earth but no problem at all with doing it in heaven? Why is it impossible for god to “actualize” (whatever that is supposed to mean) faith and hope on earth?
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tonyrey
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You are assuming love on earth is identical with love in heaven…
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ASimon
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If it weren’t for natural disasters causing us pain, suffering, and death, we’d still have each other, exercising our God-given free will to cause all of those things. And we’d still be left with plenty of reasons to experience these virtues of love, hope, and faith.
The point is, you’re forced to do a lot of intellectual gymnastics to square this “fine-tuned universe” with objective reality. It only works for you if can take all the horrible, completely commonplace tragedies, and rationalize how these things are somehow necessary for our spiritual development. That tsunami had to wipe out Tohoku, Japan back in March, because God loves us all so much and wants us to love each other more. And thanks to Him, we have this fine-tuned Universe to make it all possible.
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eo_chibears
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That is where faith comes into play. Many have faith that it isn’t a fluke that the earth is positioned the way it is.Yes, I completely agree. That is why it isn’t convincing. I see flowers, plants, and magnificent snowcapped mountains and I think it is beautiful and evidence that God exists. But to an atheist, or anyone really, it is equally arguable that we are a result of earth being in the position it is rather than earth being the result of our designed existence.
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karebear92
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I know. I agree with those who have faith in that. I was just saying that trying to argue with someone who is Atheist and believes that it is just chance, or rather, probability that the earth is positioned at the proper distance from the sun for life isn’t very convincing. It is very convincing to me and you, but you have to have faith in order for it to be that way, and from my experience, that argument ends with the parties agreeing to disagree, as both fail to see it from the other’s perspective since the critical factor is faith, which is not “scientific.”
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tonyrey
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Can you produce a feasible blueprint of a universe devoid of disasters?
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cerad2
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Sure. Just give me super powers and it won’t be a problem.Can you produce a feasible blueprint of a universe devoid of disasters?
And if you are willing to narrow the scope a bit then over the next few centuries disaster proof space colonies will host billions (if not trillions) of people.
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ASimon
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No. But God probably could. And he didn’t. Which, in a way, was my point.Can you produce a feasible blueprint of a universe devoid of disasters?
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cerad2
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Well…yes.
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ASimon
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For believers, love on Earth isn’t even identical to love on Earth. When we’re talking about God, love is perfectly expressed by terrifying people with threats of eternal damnation, and periodically drowning a village or a city.
If God were human, he’d be an abusive spouse, and the cops would be called in once a month by the neighbors worried about all the screaming and crashing plates.
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tonyrey
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tonyrey
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ASimon
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Not if you’re omnipotent, and not if the word ‘omnipotence’ means what it’s supposed to mean.
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ThinkingSapien
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Some minor differences aside I have to agree with karebear92. Any argument presented is going to interact with some one’s mental state, emotions, biases, experiences, and memories (both conscious and subconscious). These attributes are going to vary from one person to another. I think I could say that this argument is heavily dependent on confirmation bias. I can see it as being strengthening for some one that has already concluded that their god created the universe, but I don’t imagine it’s generally effective to those of some other disposition. It doesn’t do much as far as illuminating new perspectives.
It might be of some use if coupled to statements that do illuminate new perspectives.
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Spirithound
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I’m not sure about their relative strength, but I find them compelling. However, I’m already a believer. When you cross-examine an atheist properly, it always comes down to them holding a different world-view from the Christian. Essentially, they’re materialists, for no good reason. for this reason, convincing them of any part of Christianity is extraordinarily impossible.
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tonyrey
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Omnipotence isn’t a synonym for incoherence or inconsistency.
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Heuchler
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I get tired of these theism vs. atheism threads because the majority of this is a question of if you want God to exist or not. “Atheism is a disease of the soul before it becomes an error of understanding.” Have fun, I’m heading off, good luck.
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