God's gift of sexuality - a curse to those who cannot use it?

[Black_Jaque]

I find it weird how after half a lifetime of supposedly not having have any sexual thoughts at all (or romantic, or affectionate, or anything to do with desire), that after the ring goes on the finger suddenly you can switch it all on for the wedding night. Then there’s the whole grey area of whether you can actually be attracted to your spouse if you aren’t just about to have sex… I feel sorry for you people, from this point of view you can’t even enjoy pleasant thougts about your own husband or wife, and its all for the sake of some overbearing religiose paranoia.

Cynic, your first point about a lifetime of maintaining pure thoughts has a wee bit of merit, but it is way off in other respects. Within the circle of faithful Catholics there is some legitimate debate over the right time to marry. Some support earlier marriage on the grounds that it is not good for a person to mature sexually at around 15 then wait well over a decade before being able to act on that gift. However, those that support later marriages have legitimate arguments as well. I’m just trying to point out that you start out with a shred of truth.

Beyond that your view of Catholic practice is way out of touch with what Catholic practice really is. You bend the truth when you paint such a black-and-white picture. What is your source of information? Where do you get that prior to marriage we are not to have any sexual thoughts at all? That’s not Catholic teaching.

Again, please cite your source for the prohibition on being attracted to your spouse outside the context of the marital embrace? That’s not Catholic teaching either.

And where do you get this notion that we can’t enjoy thoughts about our spouses? Again that’s not Catholic teaching.

And finally you totally miss the boat on what this is all for! No it’s not all “for the sake of some overbearing religiose paranoia.” It is all for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven. The eternal life is so awesome, that these earthly struggles and frustrations will seem like a petty price to pay. It’s not about who is laughing now, it’s about who has the last laugh. . .

 

[sing]

I’m trying to justify to a friend why God can give us intense sexual desires, but we cannot fufill them outside of marriage. To those who never get married, isn’t it unfair for them to have to endure the temptations and never get to “use them’”?

It certainly is a curse for any Catholic with same sex attraction who is trying to follow Church teachings.

 

[Other_Eric]

It certainly is a curse for any Catholic with same sex attraction who is trying to follow Church teachings.

Tough.

 

[cynic]

Beyond that your view of Catholic practice is way out of touch with what Catholic practice really is. You bend the truth when you paint such a black-and-white picture. What is your source of information? Where do you get that prior to marriage we are not to have any sexual thoughts at all? That’s not Catholic teaching.

.

well ofcourse it is! You aren’t supposed to have any such thoughts before marriage, and within marriage only give in to them as the necessary means for arousal immediately before the ‘act’.

 

[blackrobe]

Sexuality is much more than putting body parts together. It is something that runs soul deep. Just because a person is living a celibate life does not mean he is not using his sexuality. Sexuality is an integral part of the whole person and the proper mission of the human person is self-donation.

The celibate is donating his whole self, including his sexuality, to the building up of the body of Christ, as is the married person. The mode of expression is different but the fundamental human activity, rightly ordered, is the same.

JSA

 

[Viki59]

Sexuality is much more than putting body parts together. It is something that runs soul deep. Just because a person is living a celibate life does not mean he is not using his sexuality. Sexuality is an integral part of the whole person and the proper mission of the human person is self-donation.JSA

This is right on.
Femininity and masculinity are so much more than activity in bed. A woman is exercising her sexuality whenever she’s consoling a child, teaching, showing hospitality or creativity, or spirituality. A man exercises his masculinity in helping raise children, in creativity, exploration, in protecting those weaker, and many other ways.

Life is so short . . .it doesn’t seem like it until you get closer to the end than the beginning, but then you realize. . . nothing life has to offer is worth jeopardizing heaven. But we can have a foretaste of heaven on earth when we use our sexuality as God intended. And what we can’t use, we can offer as reparation for the sins of ourselves and others.

 

[Black_Jaque]

well ofcourse it is! You aren’t supposed to have any such thoughts before marriage, and within marriage only give in to them as the necessary means for arousal immediately before the ‘act’.

Cynic, please cite the credible Catholic source from which you are getting this information. If no such source exist, you may consider quitting this nonsense before making a really big fool of yourself.

 

[sing]

Cynic may be satirizing, but that viewpoint is one I encountered frequently, since I was raised in a traditional Catholic household and was almost completely surrounded by traditional Catholics until age 16.

 

[Black_Jaque]

Sing,

I have a hunch that these types of attitudes are more cultural than “traditional Catholic”.

For example, were you raised in a Irish Catholic, Polish Catholic, German Catholic, Italian Catholic - or ???

The Catholic sexual ethic is set up to protect sex from being corrupted by us, not just to protect us from being corrupted by sex. That is why we should not use vulgar sexual language. And the cheap extramarital sex shown in movies is bad. And a father should not let his teen daughters out of the house looking like a Bratz Doll.

The problem arises when children grow up in a household where mom and dad DON’T do a whole lot of love-making, or any of the other affection. Those children get the impression that there just is no appropriate outlet for sexuality.

Perhaps that is yet another consideration for why it is a mortal sin to refuse to embrace your spouse - you damage the children. Not that a couple should be doing it on the living room couch while the kids are watching TV. But if Mom and Dad are in the bedroom while the kids are watching TV the kids will eventually get the idea - when they get old enough.

 

[CarolAnnSFO]

A woman is exercising her sexuality whenever she’s consoling a child, teaching, showing hospitality or creativity, or spirituality. A man exercises his masculinity in helping raise children, in creativity, exploration, in protecting those weaker, and many other ways.

I’m not sure I get this – you said “masculinity” for men, did you mean “femininity” for women?

I can understand how consoling a child or showing hospitality can be “feminine”, and related to one’s gender, but I don’t see how those activities are “sexual”.

 

[sing]

Sing,

I have a hunch that these types of attitudes are more cultural than “traditional Catholic”.

For example, were you raised in a Irish Catholic, Polish Catholic, German Catholic, Italian Catholic - or ???

The Catholic sexual ethic is set up to protect sex from being corrupted by us, not just to protect us from being corrupted by sex. That is why we should not use vulgar sexual language. And the cheap extramarital sex shown in movies is bad. And a father should not let his teen daughters out of the house looking like a Bratz Doll.

The problem arises when children grow up in a household where mom and dad DON’T do a whole lot of love-making, or any of the other affection. Those children get the impression that there just is no appropriate outlet for sexuality.

Perhaps that is yet another consideration for why it is a mortal sin to refuse to embrace your spouse - you damage the children. Not that a couple should be doing it on the living room couch while the kids are watching TV. But if Mom and Dad are in the bedroom while the kids are watching TV the kids will eventually get the idea - when they get old enough.

Traditional Catholic. Girls not allowed to cut their hair, girls not allowed to show curves, girls not allowed to wear anything other than ankle length dresses or skirts, homeschooled, Latin Mass, living in isolation, only other traditional homeschoolers for friends. Traditional Catholic.

My parents were very affectionate, there were 10 children(11 pregnancies)born in 17 years. The only reason the children stopped coming was because my mother had to have a hysterectomy.

 

[CarolAnnSFO]

The problem arises when children grow up in a household where mom and dad DON’T do a whole lot of love-making, or any of the other affection. Those children get the impression that there just is no appropriate outlet for sexuality.

I think that maybe this is what the original poster was trying to point out – if you never marry (and some of us never do, through no fault of our own), there is no appropriate outlet for sexuality. And in that case, how are we to consider sexuality a gift?

 

[LovedForever]

Reading this again now, I’d say it’s a sacrifice. Sacrifices are tough.
Marraige or celebacy, both are a sacrafice, in their own way.

Don’t think for a second that when you are married, you’ll be happy sexually…
It’s a sacrafice either way.

I’ll post a new thread with a question stemming from this…
PM

Pennitent Man - Here is a letter to Dr. Laura from a wife who so greatly benefitted from reading the book recommended to you by Dr. Laura called, “The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands.” There are many, many similar testimonies from women saying the same thing:

**"Dear Dr. Laura,

I just wanted to write and tell you thank you. I called 4 weeks ago to discuss the fact that my Darling Husband had in fact cheated on me with my best friend. Your advice changed me!

Since that brief discussion with you, I have become a better wife & mother. Mostly, a better wife!! Since then I have purchased your book (Proper Care & Feeding of Husbands) and have been enlightened by it. After the first chapter, I completely changed my attitude and stopped feeding myself, and started feeding my husband. The overwhelming change in my husband & myself has been enlightening. I have been married for 7 years and I have never ever felt the connection with my husband that I do now, all by practicing what you’ve taught in your book. I now am EXCITED and HAPPY to see my husband after he gets home from work. After 7 years of being in a marriage coma, we are now back on track and amazingly my sex drive has reappeared all because of my change of thinking. I finally realized that the marriage wasn’t just about me and my needs but in fact it was about my husband & his needs. I have never loved someone so much in my entire life and now feel that my marriage has been what it was supposed to be all along, EXCITING!!

Thank you so much for everything!!

Amy

p.s. I have dropped the friend and have gained a LOVER!! (my husband of course)

C. **

(I hope it is OK to post this here! )

 

[CarolAnnSFO]

(I hope it is OK to post this here! )

You might as well, although the thread started out being about people who never marry.

Somehow, threads on this topic with reference to never-married people always end up being about married people. Go figure.

 

[Black_Jaque]

CarolAnn,

OK. So you’re not married and you still have a sex-drive. I think the problem comes in thinking that the only outlets have to be of a sexual nature.

There are times when even a married person has to face the same things a non-married person does.

Physical excersize helps a great deal. And you work out with the same passion and zeal as you would if you were… ahem…

Split wood. Go running. Bike. Lift weights.

And that’s just an example. There’s other things too. Maybe more creative. A hobby of sorts. I know one priest who gardens. (I’ll have to ask what he does during the other 9 months when the ground’s frozen).

The sexual drive is an agitator and a motivator. It makes you get off the couch. You can’t just sit still when the bug-bites. If you do then you end up falling to temptation.

But it’s that very agitation that makes a husband buy his wife flowers. In the same way a non-married person needs to have a non-sexual way of channeling the energy.

Channeling it is a better way to describe it because “outlet” implies a certain relief. When you channel it, you don’t necessarily satisfy the sexual desire, but you passify it.

It also helps to keep reminding yourself that you’re saving your treasures for Heaven. This will help you begin living as if you believed in a Heaven - and that’s what it’s all about.

 

[CarolAnnSFO]

Split wood. Go running. Bike. Lift weights.

Wish I could do those things, but I’m not 100% able-bodied.

I have plenty of hobbies. As to their value for ahem “channeling”, well, it’s sort of like trying to appease a hunger for food by going to the lumberyard and smelling the wood. But what the hay.

This will help you begin living as if you believed in a Heaven - and that’s what it’s all about.

What makes you think I don’t believe in Heaven? I should hope I do – I’ve already done my time in… oh, never mind.

 

[chevalier]

Cynic,

Attraction is one thing. Arousal is another. An umarried Catholic is not supposed to pretend that the opposite sex is repulsive or even neutral for that matter. What is wrong is feeding the imagination with fantasies. One has to make some effort to sin (or culpable lack of effort). You don’t seen by natural reactions of your body. Now, if you play around a bit with natural reactions, that’s neither good nor in fact natural. There’s no requirement to be a hypocrite and pretend you aren’t attracted to someone to whom you are. There’s the requirement not to entertain unlawful desires. Lust is always unlawful, even in marriage, if we consider it in the sense that to lust for someone means to want to dominate him, own him, make him into an object of one’s satisfaction regardless of will to cooperate or of right.

The proximity of “the act” in time doesn’t make unlawful urges good, nor does the lack of such proximity make it wrong to look forward or hope for “the act”.

Let’s think…

Husband: “My lawfully wedded spouse, regardless of our actual desires, let us now make the conscious and informed choice to consummate our unity in this marriage, as well as procure offspring for the sake of the good of progeny, as the Lord commands us in the Canon Law, Canon 1055 para 1.”

Wife: “My lord and master to whom I submit as Paul prescribes in Eph. 5, 22-24, allow me to fulfil my duty and likewise exercise my right in the spirit of Canon 1136.”

Blackout. Five minutes. Light back on, people are fully clothed again. Grim serious faces, no track of satisfaction, let alone happiness. Blackout, nine months. Child. Another blackout. Another nine months.

Seriously, would any normal person want to marry if it looked like that? Maybe if people were hypocrites just wanting some sex and playing along with the pretence. There’s no grudgingly making oneself “ready” in an instant at a command of will, really. It’s supposed to be a source of joy, not an act of mortification from the darkest of middle ages. There’s nothing in Catholicism to require the man to feel like he’s an animal and the woman to pretend she’s almost being raped. Neither would it be proper for them to go all horny in an instant… How would that be achieved? Reeks of some autoerotic associations, making sure you’re well heated so you can do your duty and who cares about living persons. Nah, it doesn’t work like that.

 

[Black_Jaque]

What makes you think I don’t believe in Heaven? I should hope I do – I’ve already done my time in… oh, never mind.

I didn’t say you didn’t believe in heaven. I’m just suggesting that you/we don’t act like we believe in heaven. I’m intending a most general sense. Though we may think we act like we believe in heave there’s always room for improvement.

If you really, really, believe in Heaven, then why are you so concerned about these urges now? Your reward will be great in Heaven.

 

[CarolAnnSFO]

If you really, really, believe in Heaven, then why are you so concerned about these urges now? Your reward will be great in Heaven.

I hope so! As far as being “concerned about these urges”, if you had no food to eat for <fill in a time in months or years>, would you be concerned about being hungry?

OK, OK, don’t flame me. I’m going away now…

 

[Black_Jaque]

I hope so! As far as being “concerned about these urges”, if you had no food to eat for <fill in a time in months or years>, would you be concerned about being hungry?

Would I? Or should I? Two different questions. Going without food would certainly test my faith. Without God’s grace I’m sure I’d be reduced to some crazed maniac try to steal crumbs from a baby. But it’s possible that with God’s grace I could face starvation nobly. The Bible and the stories of the Saints are loaded with faithful people who faced even worse tribulations and mastered them. Was it St. Ignatius who was fed to the lions? On his way to Rome he wrote letters to his buddies telling them not to attempt to save him, or even plead on his behalf.

OK, OK, don’t flame me. I’m going away now…

No, no, I’m not flaming you. These are legitimate questions I know. Questions I struggle with every day.

I take it the SFO signifies that you have taken some sort of vow to a religious order? Priests, through the confessional, at least get a glimpse of the truths of married life. I would probably guess that if a priest ever feels like he’s made the wrong decision with celebacy - all he needs to do is hear confessions for an hour and that will cure him for the week!