God's Grace vs. God's Word

  • Thread starter Thread starter ahs
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
A

ahs

Guest
I was discussing the necessity of Baptism for Salvation and it was brought up that the theif on the cross was saved without Baptism (by water). I made the comment that he was ablet o be saved because God is not bound (maybe shouldhave sadi limited?) by His grace. The theif was saved by “Baptism by blood.”

So a person wanted to knwo how is ti that I don’t believe God is bound by His “word”?

Well, I didn’t say “word”, I said “grace”. Clarification was then asked, “Tell me, how do you differentiate between God’s grace and His word?”

Honestly, I don’t that I could. What is the differece between God’s grace and His word?
 
ahs said:
I was discussing the necessity of Baptism for Salvation and it was brought up that the theif on the cross was saved without Baptism (by water). I made the comment that he was ablet o be saved because God is not bound (maybe shouldhave sadi limited?) by His grace. The theif was saved by “Baptism by blood.”

So a person wanted to knwo how is ti that I don’t believe God is bound by His “word”?

Well, I didn’t say “word”, I said “grace”. Clarification was then asked, “Tell me, how do you differentiate between God’s grace and His word?”

Honestly, I don’t that I could. What is the differece between God’s grace and His word?
Click to expand...
Nothing, as far as I can see.
Men like to make distinctions.
 
ahs said:
I was discussing the necessity of Baptism for Salvation and it was brought up that the theif on the cross was saved without Baptism (by water). I made the comment that he was ablet o be saved because God is not bound (maybe shouldhave sadi limited?) by His grace. The theif was saved by “Baptism by blood.”

So a person wanted to knwo how is ti that I don’t believe God is bound by His “word”?

Well, I didn’t say “word”, I said “grace”. Clarification was then asked, “Tell me, how do you differentiate between God’s grace and His word?”

Honestly, I don’t that I could. What is the differece between God’s grace and His word?
Click to expand...
*CCC#1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an “adopted son” he can henceforth call God “Father,” in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.*Think of grace as an animating life-force if you will, not of physical life, but of supernatural life. See also the Catholic.com tract Grace: What it is and what it does.

The “Word” is essentially God’s communication, His revealing of Himself, revealing truth, to mankind, which includes His communication in Scripture, Tradition, even the person of Himself in Christ.*CCC#100 The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church…*That would include Scripture and Tradition. The Word is also Christ. For instance:CCC#687 Now God’s Spirit, who reveals God, makes known to us Christ, his Word, his living Utterance…

So when God is teaching, revealing Himself, His truth, to His people, it is not right thinking to say why isn’t God “bound by His own words.” If a human father teaches a child to get to bed at 8:00 or else the child will not get ice cream tomorrow, he is not “bound” to go to bed at 8:00 himself, nor is he forbidden from granting the child ice cream anyway should the child have not had proper opportunity to get to bed at 8:00.
 
ahs said:
I was discussing the necessity of Baptism for Salvation and it was brought up that the theif on the cross was saved without Baptism (by water). I made the comment that he was ablet o be saved because God is not bound (maybe shouldhave sadi limited?) by His grace. The theif was saved by “Baptism by blood.”

So a person wanted to knwo how is ti that I don’t believe God is bound by His “word”?

Well, I didn’t say “word”, I said “grace”. Clarification was then asked, “Tell me, how do you differentiate between God’s grace and His word?”

Honestly, I don’t that I could. What is the differece between God’s grace and His word?
Click to expand...
Rather then get trapped by your own words… I’d simply clarify what you meant… that you mispoke and that what you meant is that…

Man is bound by the Sacraments… they are for us, for our sake. God is not limited in anyway, he may forgive and grant salvation through mercy and grace to whomever he wants.
The Catholic church recognizes this and so we believe in what is called “Baptism by desire” or what you called ‘baptism by blood’ - same basic idea. It is an extraordinary form outside of the normalative way one is saved.
However, the bible makes it clear that the NORMAL way one has original sin removed and is made a child of God is through baptism. The bible makes that clear that baptism is the gateway or the start and that all Christians should receive it. The fact that 1 person received extraordinary means, by God himself, should not mean that ANY of us can claim a right to that or ‘assume’ we are saved without Baptism.

That is how I’d put it. If the person still persists that Baptism is not necessary or is an outward sign of an inward belief… then just pray for them and leave it up to God. You’ve done a pretty good job of relaying the truth to them. - in my opinion.
 
jschutzm said:
Rather then get trapped by your own words… I’d simply clarify what you meant… that you mispoke and that what you meant is that…

Man is bound by the Sacraments… they are for us, for our sake. God is not limited in anyway, he may forgive and grant salvation through mercy and grace to whomever he wants.
The Catholic church recognizes this and so we believe in what is called “Baptism by desire” or what you called ‘baptism by blood’ - same basic idea. It is an extraordinary form outside of the normalative way one is saved.
However, the bible makes it clear that the NORMAL way one has original sin removed and is made a child of God is through baptism. The bible makes that clear that baptism is the gateway or the start and that all Christians should receive it. The fact that 1 person received extraordinary means, by God himself, should not mean that ANY of us can claim a right to that or ‘assume’ we are saved without Baptism.

That is how I’d put it. If the person still persists that Baptism is not necessary or is an outward sign of an inward belief… then just pray for them and leave it up to God. You’ve done a pretty good job of relaying the truth to them. - in my opinion.
Click to expand...
Thanks!
 
Regarding baptism by blood, I don’t think that would apply because the man was not killed for his faith, but killed justly for his crimes, as he himself admitted. “Baptism of desire” would be the more appropriate thing to bring up, though the fact that his death occurred after Christ’s death but before Christ’s resurrection puts him in a highly unusual category in terms of figuring out exactly what likely happened to him after death, as opposed to the just who died before the entire Paschal event or after it.
 
Aelred_Minor said:
Regarding baptism by blood, I don’t think that would apply because the man was not killed for his faith, but killed justly for his crimes, as he himself admitted. “Baptism of desire” would be the more appropriate thing to bring up, though the fact that his death occurred after Christ’s death but before Christ’s resurrection puts him in a highly unusual category in terms of figuring out exactly what likely happened to him after death, as opposed to the just who died before the entire Paschal event or after it.
Click to expand...
He was familiar with Jesus and his teachings. He may have been baptized by Jesus earlier.

Also… the command to be baptized did not come for Jesus UNTIL AFTER THE RESURRECTION. So that was not yet the normal way to come to God. If this man was a Jew, the normal way would have been circumcision. And he probably would have had received that on the 8th day after his birth.
 
ahs said:
I was discussing the necessity of Baptism for Salvation and it was brought up that the theif on the cross was saved without Baptism (by water). I made the comment that he was ablet o be saved because God is not bound (maybe shouldhave sadi limited?) by His grace. The theif was saved by “Baptism by blood.”

So a person wanted to knwo how is ti that I don’t believe God is bound by His “word”?

Well, I didn’t say “word”, I said “grace”. Clarification was then asked, “Tell me, how do you differentiate between God’s grace and His word?”

Honestly, I don’t that I could. What is the differece between God’s grace and His word?
Click to expand...
With the help of God’s grace we’re expected to the best we can with what we’re given. Not everyone has the benefit of even hearing His word let alone complying with it every step of the way. For those of us who do, more will be expected. Reference Luke 12:48 and also the Parable of the Talents.
 
“In a word there is sound, force and breath. It has sound that it may be heard, meaning that it may be understood, and breath that it may be pronounced. In the sound, then, observe the Father, Who manifests all things with ineffable power; in the meaning, the Son, Who was miraculously begotten of the Father; and in the breath, the Holy Spirit, Who sweetly burns in Them. But where no sound is heard, no meaning is used and no breath is lifted, there no word will be understood; so also the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not divided from one another, but do Their works together [St. Hildegard of Bingen, Scivias, 164].”

The Father is the “mouth” of God. The mouth sends, but is never sent. Only the Son and the Holy Spirit are described as being sent. The Father expresses the Word through the force of his Breath. In creation, the Father enters into creation through the Word, and the grace (Breath) is the fire through which the Word is received and understood.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top