Gods Justice v Mans Justice

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simpleas

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I wondered how we see what Gods Justice would be like. Maybe I shouldn’t speculate on how God will reward or punish us after death, but as we are taught that God is a being of Mercy and Justice, it makes me wonder.

Say for instance, two people who are very different, yet both are made in the image and likeness of God and are called to forgive and love their neighbour.

One person, finds life a struggle, is very unforgiving of others and would be in favor of capital punishment as a source of justice.

The other person to finds life a struggle, but can be forgiving of others and would not be in favor of capital punishment as a source of justice, but they understand that there needs to be a form of punishment for grave crimes.

It seems some people would play God very easily because they believe that Gods justice would work out the way they think. Yet Gods ways are not mans ways. So how do we understand Gods justice?
If a person would never torture and kill another, why would we think God will? (Hell)
If a person would torture and kill another, do they think that is what God would do?

Thoughts?
 
I’ve thought about this before, too.

We can probably say with confidence that God’s justice is perfect. What does that mean?
  • it’s swift, no lingering trial so to speak
  • the accused is fully involved in his/her own trial and sentence. i.e., a person condemned to hell actually arrives at that conclusion in face of the evidence and pridefully runs from God. The only place to run away from God is hell - permanent separation from God.
  • actually, in a perfect justice court scenario, the accused would view all the evidence and render his/her own sentence, i.e., fully admit guilt.
  • perfect mercy. As a human I don’t know what this looks like. The accused falling on their face begging for forgiveness at the feet of the judge? And Him granting it?
Man’s justice is skewed despite what we like to think about our respective legal systems. Man’s justice is punishment based. God’s perfect judgement is more about giving chances to the very end.

just some thoughts.
 
God’s Justice - God has the distinct advantage in that he can read the hearts of man. and in His perfect justice, as part of our ‘trial’ so to speak, we will see ourselves as He sees us.

Man’s Justice - we see a truth colored by what lawyers want us to see; through whatever lies are told on the stand and whatever biases the court has.
 
Punishment for crimes is only one aspect of justice, and one that most of us have little or no control over. For most of us, it is just a philosophical question, except perhaps on Election Day, and even then I have my doubts how much the politicians really care what you or I think about capital punishment.

Justice more often means caring for those in need:
Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’

Matthew 25:34-36
Last Sunday’s Gospel (Matthew 20:1-16, The Parable of the Laborers in the Vineyard) says something about God’s justice. Each laborer who came to work was given what he needed, not what he 'deserved" or earned by his labor. Our ways are not God’s ways.
 
I think:confused: the concept of justice as understood by the Jews must have been different than what the Roman world under Greek philosophical influence held. The Jews suffered a lot of losses; notably Job, for whom justice was restoration. That in turn seemed to have translated into a recognition that Job was never deserving of his temporary fate, and that indeed it was all Satan’s fault.
The Romans, from what we know of their power, must have had a different psychology. Their desire looks like a desire to be free to choose, act, and be according to what they want. Their oppression on a large scale seems like the psychology of kill or be killed, in preservation of their empire, which grants they and their allies freedom, as in the book of Maccabees.
Crucifying rebels looks like a torture designed to give one what one is “really seeking” – a kind of “give me liberty or give me death,” payout. It is the Roman act of telling you what you want and what your choices are?
My conjecture is that for the Romans justice was defined as maintenance of freedom, or even gaining freedom where it didn’t exist. Since freedom was doing what you want, justice meant getting what you wanted.
To say that God in the person of Jesus widened the concept of justice with reference to the Jews or the Romans is simply to play favorites on whose ‘modern’ justice you admire most, which likely means whose justice you need most in your life.
In view of the above notion of justice of the Romans, hell, the dump outside Jerusalem, simply would have been a place to be free to wreak havoc on your soul, whilst being sequestered from the other (two places) so as not to harm anyone else while you go off to eternal dark pursuits.
God turns it around on both of them. The Jews get a story very difficult for them to accept of real events that would lead them to life eternally restored in a new Jerusalem; and the Roman’s concept of justice now includes the possibility of choosing your own demise, albeit unwittingly, if you don’t adhere to the law of love as expressed by the Messiah of a culture with whom things aren’t working out.
 
Just last week I was thinking about that.

Jesus said “But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.”

So that would make it sound like He gives everyone the same gifts. But then He takes out entire cities and sends people to hell.

Then it hit me: Jesus came to “intercede” for us, IOW protect us from His Father’s seemingly arbitrary and wrathful actions. Only He understood what in the world the Father was “thinking” if that’s even the right term for how He “makes decisions.” The Commandments were our only useful guide, and as we know they could not bring salvation but just some behavioral order. (and introduced the concept of “sin” - see Rom 7)

So Jesus came to show us what cannot be explained in human language using verbage alone and therefore cannot be recorded in the Bible: the heart of the teachings. Only He could both see all the stuff His Father did, and how that translates into human terminology. Jesus provided empathy for both Father and human to help us connect up.

MS
 
Thanks all for your thoughts.

It’s interesting though how some believe that if a person isn’t born again, they will not be able to enter Heaven on the last day. That only people who have been baptised and live strictly according to the churches teachings are the people who will enter Heaven.

To me this sounds like Man’s way of teaching, although it’s said to come from Christ himself, it still sounds like a human thought.

I can’t seem to think that God’s justice for the unbaptised would mean eternal hell for them, then again I am a human thinking this!

Thanks 👍
 
simpleas said:
Thanks all for your thoughts.

It’s interesting though how some believe that if a person isn’t born again, they will not be able to enter Heaven on the last day. That only people who have been baptised and live strictly according to the churches teachings are the people who will enter Heaven.

To me this sounds like Man’s way of teaching, although it’s said to come from Christ himself, it still sounds like a human thought.

I can’t seem to think that God’s justice for the unbaptised would mean eternal hell for them, then again I am a human thinking this!

Thanks 👍
Click to expand...
Do you think you will enter the kingdom of heaven without being born again?

John 3
1 Now there was a Pharisee named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
2 He came to Jesus at night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God, for no one can do these signs that you are doing unless God is with him.”
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.”

4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?”

5 Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
6 What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.

7 Do not be amazed that I told you, ‘You must be born from above.’
8 The wind blows where it wills, and you can hear the sound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes; so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Go back to the source to find out whether it is the teaching of Jesus. The more you hear what Jesus says, instead of what other people say about what Jesus says, the better your situation will be…

John 8:31-32
Jesus then said to those Jews who believed in him, “If you remain in my word, you will truly be my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

MS
 
God’s justice will be more in one’s heart and interior thoughts. God knows man’s thoughts and mind. And also one’s willingness to follow God’s commandments, one’s loyalty to God, also counts. Because God is love, which also means one’s conscience and one’s good deeds.

Man’s Justice is more judged by law and behavior as others can see. One can hide their evil mind and act in another way. One can tell lies, hypocrites, greedy, selfishness… etc. but cannot be seen by others.

Some justice systems have bias and problems in the world. Just like, if the victim cannot find the evidence, Or if some rich people hired intelligent lawyer who misled the judges, that evil one will not be put to jail…

Remember God’s thoughts is higher than man’s thoughts. And God’s love is much greater than any of human’s love.

God gave everyone of us “Freedom of choice” because He first loved us. But, He said He never permit anyone to sin.
 
shanishani7 said:
God’s justice will be more in one’s heart and interior thoughts. God knows man’s thoughts and mind. And also one’s willingness to follow God’s commandments, one’s loyalty to God, also counts. Because God is love, which also means one’s conscience and one’s good deeds.

Man’s Justice is more judged by law and behavior as others can see. One can hide their evil mind and act in another way. One can tell lies, hypocrites, greedy, selfishness… etc. but cannot be seen by others.
Click to expand...
👍
 
simpleas said:
I wondered how we see what Gods Justice would be like. Maybe I shouldn’t speculate on how God will reward or punish us after death, but as we are taught that God is a being of Mercy and Justice, it makes me wonder.

Say for instance, two people who are very different, yet both are made in the image and likeness of God and are called to forgive and love their neighbour.

One person, finds life a struggle, is very unforgiving of others and would be in favor of capital punishment as a source of justice.

The other person to finds life a struggle, but can be forgiving of others and would not be in favor of capital punishment as a source of justice, but they understand that there needs to be a form of punishment for grave crimes.

It seems some people would play God very easily because they believe that Gods justice would work out the way they think. Yet Gods ways are not mans ways. So how do we understand Gods justice?
If a person would never torture and kill another, why would we think God will? (Hell)
If a person would torture and kill another, do they think that is what God would do?

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
I would say His justice depends on: His will being done, forgiving others as He forgives us. His mercy is key to His justice. After all the human race still exists. Can we have that kind of mercy in tough situations ? Is our will in agreement with His ? This is all summed up in the Lord’s Prayer.

God Bless
onenow1:)
 
God’s Justice exists when He created the earth and heaven, He put conscience in every man’s heart, He expected everyone to know Him and does only what God wanted us to do. He gave human Freedom of Choice. At that time, human only had knowledge of Good. Until after Adam and Eve ate the apple, human started to have knowledge of Good and Evil. From that moment, every human knows Evilness. God needs to make Adam and Eve out of Garden of Eden. That is why, God sent His Son to this earth in order to save our souls. God gave us baptism to give us new life of spirit. He gave us commandments, asked us to love Him, love our neighbour, and to follow his ten commandments. This is God’s Justice, Justice exists when He created Heaven and Earth, even Adam and Eve cannot escape from God’s Justice no matter how God loved them.

That is why only Man will sin, animals will not sin. Satan always tempted human on earth in order to ruin their souls. Man’s thought cannot be higher than God’s thoughts. Example - God mentioned we cannot kill anyone, but nowadays Abortion and Euthanasia are allowed in many countries and human think it is not a sin or problem. They think these help human to end their suffering. But every life belongs to God, and no one should take away any life.

If you wanna know God’s Justice, always follow God’s words and His commandments, because only God leads us to Heaven, not Man.
 
God’s justice certainly doesn’t mean punishment or us getting what we deserve. If we got what we deserve we would all be in hell. So thank God that He doesn’t deal with us according to justice. In fact some saints would make the case that you can’t even call God just at all. I’ll quote St Issac the Syrian.

Do not call God just, for His justice is not manifest in the things concerning you. And if David calls Him just and upright, His Son revealed to us that He is good and kind. ‘He is good’, He says ‘to the evil and to the impious.’ How can you call God just when you come across the Scriptural passage on the wage given to the workers? “Friend, I do thee no wrong: I choose to give unto this last even as unto thee. Or is thine eye evil because I am good?” How can a man call God just when he comes across the passage on the prodigal son who wasted his wealth with riotous living, how for the compunction alone which he showed the father ran and fell upon his neck and gave him authority over his wealth? None other but His very Son said these things concerning Him, lest we doubt it, and thus bore witness concerning Him. Where, then, is God’s justice?—for while we are sinners Christ died for us! But if here He is merciful, we may believe that He will not change. - St. Isaac of Syria, Ascetical Homilies, 51

Now you have to be careful with that, it’s just a manner of speaking, but in reality in the economy of salvation God does not deal with us according to justice. He deals with us according to His mercy. And in fact the two are inseparable. His justice is perfectly merciful and His mercy is perfectly just. The reason He is just is He God offers His mercy to everyone, without exception. It’s up to us if we accept or reject that mercy.
 
Seraphim73 said:
God’s justice certainly doesn’t mean punishment or us getting what we deserve. If we got what we deserve we would all be in hell. So thank God that He doesn’t deal with us according to justice. In fact some saints would make the case that you can’t even call God just at all. I’ll quote St Issac the Syrian.

Do not call God just, for His justice is not manifest in the things concerning you. And if David calls Him just and upright, His Son revealed to us that He is good and kind. ‘He is good’, He says ‘to the evil and to the impious.’ How can you call God just when you come across the Scriptural passage on the wage given to the workers? “Friend, I do thee no wrong: I choose to give unto this last even as unto thee. Or is thine eye evil because I am good?” How can a man call God just when he comes across the passage on the prodigal son who wasted his wealth with riotous living, how for the compunction alone which he showed the father ran and fell upon his neck and gave him authority over his wealth? None other but His very Son said these things concerning Him, lest we doubt it, and thus bore witness concerning Him. Where, then, is God’s justice?—for while we are sinners Christ died for us! But if here He is merciful, we may believe that He will not change. - St. Isaac of Syria, Ascetical Homilies, 51

Now you have to be careful with that, it’s just a manner of speaking, but in reality in the economy of salvation God does not deal with us according to justice. He deals with us according to His mercy. And in fact the two are inseparable. His justice is perfectly merciful and His mercy is perfectly just. The reason He is just is He God offers His mercy to everyone, without exception. It’s up to us if we accept or reject that mercy.
Click to expand...
God being Merciful is what I have always thought through what I have been taught. Even people who are not fully accepting of God, I believe God may show mercy to. When we die it will be up to God what he does with our souls.
I have just noticed on some threads that some posters are adamant that if people do not fully accept the teachings of the church then they will by Gods justice be sent to hell because they prefer hell, they choose hell over heaven, because they love sin more than God.
I’m not sure who theses people are who indefinately choose hell, I could think of a few radical people in the world, but then God may think differently of them and show his mercy and love in the end.

Thanks for all thoughts 👍
 
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