R
Reuben_J
Guest
We often heard about God being just. We also know that God acts according to his justice. What are they?
- Status
D
DPMartin
Guest
Reuben J
That which is of the earth remains in the earth (vessels of clay) and that which is of God the Father through His Son remains with God the Father through His Son. And God is Faithful to do it. Hence the Resurrection of His Son who bore the sins of the world (human existence) who is of the Father. And God the Father’s Son’s place at the Right Hand of the Father, in humane existence, and the earth is retained, forever.
Therefore that which is born of the Holy Spirit is of God the Father though the Son Jesus Christ who is the Fulfillment of God’s Commandments to the Father’s satisfaction to and in mankind. Therefore what God declares as Good is His Judgement.
God comes into agreement with the Man, (and we do know that Jesus is the fulfillment of God’s Agrement with mankind.)
Gen:2
15: And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16: And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
18: And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
Also note that at this time there is no discussion in who is the Judge of what is Good or not good.
But at the tree of knowledge of good and evil there is. And man and woman come into agreement by eating the fruit of that tree that they like gods will judge what is good and evil. But the Commandment of God will be fulfilled. For His Commandment is His agreement that He is Faithful to keep and see fulfilled until He declares it Good.
Those who eat at the tree of knowledge of good and evil agree that they are the judge of what is good and evil. But those who eat at the Tree of Life, receive the Bread of Life, that gives eternal Life. It has been said by a renown evangelist that it is the Father’s Job to Judge and it is the Holy Spirit’s Job to convict ( produce repentance) and it is our job to love. Truly a evangelist’s view, but there is something to be said for it.
Of corse one could write volumes and volumes on God’s Justice considering all His Ways are Mercy and Truth but as the Lord said through Jeremiah:
Jer:9:24: But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Thanks DPMartin for the insight into God’s justice. Frankly until I saw your post I did not think about God’s justice in the light of Genesis as mentioned. And that’s informative. I started this thread here because I thought I might hear some (name removed by moderator)uts or opinions on this topic.
Just for further discussion – if God is loving, kind and righteous, don’t you think it is a bit harsh to punish Adam and Eve (and their descendants) by sending them out of Eden to suffer and to die just for eating a little fruit?
F
fhansen
Guest
I think we could think of it this way: disobedience of God* is* our separation from Him, our exile from Eden. It’s a self-exile, the consequence of a Prodigals choice.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Hi fhansen. A good point there: disobedience result in our separation from Him. It still does not answer the question - whether it is not too harsh to mete such a hard punishment with a full reaching consequence to the descendants? What is a full justice of God? Would we see a God who punishes his creations, separating them from him because of a simple obedience?
Consider ourselves to be in His shoes and our boys disobey our instruction in our household - would we banish them from the house forever?
R
Reuben_J
Guest
correction: disobedience
J
JM3
Guest
Genesis 3:22 - “lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever” - 23 therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the land of Eden,
Perhaps, you should be reading your bible, instead of making false accusations towards God.
Are you sure you are catholic? Your words say otherwise.
F
fhansen
Guest
I think we’ve been banished into a schoolroom-a harsh one, yes, but one not without love and goodness, one, in fact, where good and evil are known, as in directly experienced. The purpose is to let us wallow in a world where our will, rather than Gods, reigns, and to see how well we like it. We should, eventually, become jaded of trying to find happiness outside of God first and foremost, and realize that our very life, let alone our happiness, depends on Him, and turn back to Him. We inherit Adam & Eves sin. This means that we, too are turned away from God, not knowing, let alone hoping in or loving Him, from birth. And preferring things that way, at least until, with the help of revelation via the Church coupled with our own life-experience, we turn back to Him. This is the purpose of the Incarnation-to definitively demonstrate the true face of God-to show His love in spite of our undeserved mistrust and jealousy, and give man the chance -and the grace-to make the right choice this time. It’s only a temporary banishment; the Prodigal can return home anytime.
D
DPMartin
Guest
It’s not the fruit, it is the eating of the fruit. For in eating the fruit they fell out of agreement with God and agreed with otherwise. But yet they were still bond to the agreement by virtue of the Commandment, for God’s Commandments will be fulfilled.
Which would seem that the fulfillment of God’s Commandment would be against you.
Notice when we eat, basically, we agree that it is good. That it is good for us, or better said for ourselves and others. Adam and Eve did the same, God commanded them to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And they disagreed with God and judged what is good for themselves. Also note that before they did eat, that fruit of the Tree of Life was also available to them. Which would have given them eternal Life. But they choose not to eat of it. Nor did they ask the Lord God of what Tree He would have them eat of. And it is God’s Promise that
14: And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
That is our Salvation from our own choices.
Also note that Adam and Eve were given opportunity to answer God. But the serpent was not. And since God’s Commandments must be fulfilled, is this harsh or Merciful? If God did not declare the coming of Christ (God’s Merciful Agreement to all mankind, our Lord Jesus Christ) then what would be the fulfillment of God’s Commandment without the Promise of Christ Jesus to come? And this Commandment, please take note, Jesus fulfilled for us for our sakes, for He is the Word of God with us that can’t fall out of Agreement with the Word of God for He being the Word of God is the agreement. Hence God is wise, very wise. Jesus did not eat of tree of knowledge of good and evil. He is the Tree of Life, (Bread of Life, Living Water) God’s Choice for man that is available to man, from the Father, Son of God, into the Son of man.
Now the fulfillment of God’s Commandments are for you. Which was always for you but if one does not come into agreement with God’s Word our Lord Jesus Christ through our Lord Jesus Christ then the fulfillment of God’s Commandments would be against you.
And note all who served the Lord God from Adam, Noah and Abraham served in the fulfillment of God’s Promise. Which is the Fulfillment of His Commandments to His Satisfaction for mankind not against mankind.
In our sufferings or undesirable experience do we come to know God’s Loving kindness for He Delivers us and He Shields us and He Strengthens us to live through it even death itself.
1Cor:15:55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
It is true as Paul said:
1Cor:15:56: The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
But the Liberty is the fulfillment of the Commandments and the Law to the Father’s satisfaction is Christ and through Jesus is the Father satisfied with us. For He the Father sees us and we know the Father through His Son the Fulfillment of His Commandments.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
What such a conceited Catholic – splashing Biblical passage with a disdain against one who asks.
Far from accusing my God, I am here looking for various (name removed by moderator)uts in order that I can defend my God whom I love; not that God needs defending from us mere mortals.
You know, I am asking questions that children or non-believers would normally ask. Sometimes for simple common questions we find it difficult even to explain to them properly that will make sense to them. Sometimes we get angry when people ask this type of questions because we ourselves are so poorly catechized; we ourselves do not know the answer and getting defensive unnecessarily.
I come here because this is the apologetic section – you guys here, maybe not you; I think would be more familiar in giving (name removed by moderator)uts for simple ordinary Bible knowledge that may escape us sometimes. Even if we know, what is wrong in asking to widen our knowledge? And how charitable we are when we help to answer questions!
How much more of a Catholic you want me to be than you are, may I ask? Are you sure you know everything that’s Catholic that you need to know? Even if you know them all, don’t you think you should not listen to what other Catholics have to say?
By the tone of your post, I don’t feel any love at all from you. I hope that’s not how people see us most of the time – devoid of love, impatience and judgmental even before knowing who we are talking to.
Ah, I should have asked what this Forum is for!
May God bless you.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
That’s a good analogy – been sent into a school room. We can only realize the love of God when we experience the absence. I will take this in mind.
God bless.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Hi DPMartin. You have given so much effort to expound on this topic, I truly appreciate it.
God loves us so much that he also gives us free will. That free will causes us sometimes to go against him. Salvation is our choice. I agree. That’s a good point there.
As an aside – I’ve been using Gen 3:15 as one of the basis for the doctrine of Immaculate Conception. The seed of the woman is Jesus who will crush the head of Satan. Some Protestants would quickly tell me that the woman is Eve. While that is maybe true, surely we can be more specific – that the woman whose seed is Jesus is therefore Jesus’ Mother. And if she is conceived with sin then it means to say that the original work of God is being influenced by Satan which should not be if God wants to crush him. Maybe I can have your thought, perhaps in another thread bearing the appropriate topic.
That’s a good way of putting it. I was originally talking about God’s justice. This kind of knowledge is useful if we discuss with Muslims in an inter-religious dialogue. From their point of view, how could God be just if what he does, humanly speaking, can be seen so harsh?
My take is that God need to be true to his word if he is a true, truthful and unchanging God. In other word, he must keep his word and his promise; and that he did. He loves comes in clear when even though man sins and thus should bear the consequence, God offer us another chance – he sent his Son, Jesus.
Beautiful. But in case I miss this out, what do you mean by Liberty here? I have my own thought on it, but what are you really saying?
God bless.
D
DPMartin
Guest
Reuben JHi DPMartin. You have given so much effort to expound on this topic, I truly appreciate it.
God loves us so much that he also gives us free will. That free will causes us sometimes to go against him. Salvation is our choice. I agree. That’s a good point there.
As an aside – I’ve been using Gen 3:15 as one of the basis for the doctrine of Immaculate Conception. The seed of the woman is Jesus who will crush the head of Satan. Some Protestants would quickly tell me that the woman is Eve. While that is maybe true, surely we can be more specific – that the woman whose seed is Jesus is therefore Jesus’ Mother. And if she is conceived with sin then it means to say that the original work of God is being influenced by Satan which should not be if God wants to crush him. Maybe I can have your thought, perhaps in another thread bearing the appropriate topic.
That’s a good way of putting it. I was originally talking about God’s justice. This kind of knowledge is useful if we discuss with Muslims in an inter-religious dialogue. From their point of view, how could God be just if what he does, humanly speaking, can be seen so harsh?
My take is that God need to be true to his word if he is a true, truthful and unchanging God. In other word, he must keep his word and his promise; and that he did. He loves comes in clear when even though man sins and thus should bear the consequence, God offer us another chance – he sent his Son, Jesus.
Beautiful. But in case I miss this out, what do you mean by Liberty here? I have my own thought on it, but what are you really saying?
God bless.
thanks for the reply
It has been my experience that an ethical Protestant or one with integrity would not dispute “Immaculate Conception” in reference to the Virgin Mary. That She was a virgin in respect to Jesus Christ. It is usually all the other doctrine on that subject, on both sides, that brings the deep divide that causes strife and debate. Other then some doctrine that could be out there, there is no true dispute of Mary being a Virgin and it is by the Power of the Holy Spirit is He “Son of God” the Word of God, of the Father, come into the Son of man.
Though you are correct that it could be said that Eve had something to do with it. Common sense would tell you that Eve is the Mother of all sons and daughters of Man (Adam). But only the Virgin Mary was chosen by God to bear the Child that would bear the sins of the world, for the restoration of mankind into the Presence of God.
Abrahams experience in God’s choice that only the son through Sara would be the one to inherit, should teach us that.
And in respect to subject of doctrines
A house is built according to it’s foundation, and Paul expressed that he was carful not to build to any other name but Jesus Christ. It might be wise for us to do the same, considering that it is quite evident that Paul’s work is acceptable before the Lord our God. (This not to referring to a Church building or Parish or Hospital or University, named honoring a Saint)
In reference to Liberty.
Walk with God, not your mistakes. You can’t fulfill the law to the satisfaction of the Father, but through the Father’s satisfaction in His Son we can walk with God. Though for many this can be a process, but the healing result is the same. For the guilt and the shame is removed in Christ Jesus in the Presence of our Creator the Almighty. Which is His Will. Hence our acceptance of the fulfillment of God Commandments and Law according to His Will, and His Choice. For how can you be in His image and in His likeness without Him?
F
fhansen
Guest
Scripture tells us that through Adam all men fell. Is this fair? I think it can at least become obvious, by looking around us as well as within, that the concept of the fall is valid-that somethin’s out of whack with mankind.
But was it just for God to exile us all into a land that includes, along with many good things, pain, suffering, and death? God, of course, knew beforehand that the fall would occur-that man would sin-and apparently deemed it worth it to create us anyway.
Could it not be that Adam, a spectacular being in many ways, possessing free will along with reason and other attributes, nonetheless lacked the perfect wisdom that only God could possess, and was doomed to fall-and likewise, therefore, all mankind was doomed to the same fate? That failing to recognize the wisdom behind Gods will was inevitable? And that coming to know for himself the evil which can result from man’s will reigning rather than God’s is the only way to produce a being that is truly godly, according to Gods plan, which ultimately includes the theosis of man, his “divinization”.
Perhaps the highest level of being God can produce outside of Himself is one who’s come to learn of the goodness and perfection of His will so thoroughly that he would never rebel against it again-he would always willingly choose the right, making him truly a righteous being. This coincides with Catholic teaching that no sinners will enter heaven, that our sanctification is a necessary part of our justification, that justification is a process whereby the Potter molds the clay into the creation He desires, but not without the clays consent.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
I missed out this thread yesterday. I would like to thank **DPMartin **and fhansen for have kindly filled in the insight that I am looking for on this subject. I must admit it is more than I expected and I am truly impressed. I have been in the Forum for quite a while, though not a very avid poster, I do once a while participate in, especially in the non-Catholic religion section doing a little bit of apologizing for Catholic religion and very amateur at that. At times it could take away lots of precious prayer time and it is quite addictive too.
There is another aspect of God’s justice that boggles the mind – about the eleventh hour worker who gets the same pay as those who work from the morning and the other is the thief at the cross who by a split moment decision was assured of heaven!
What about us then or me rather, who slog through life trying to be on the good side of God’s book knowing that any wrong move at the end of the day could cost my salvation? A non-Christian once challenge me to enjoy life first, be with the world and when one about to die to go for repentance, knowing that as God takes the eleventh hour worker and the thief at the cross he will do the same to us.
Any thought on this?
There is another aspect of God’s justice that boggles the mind – about the eleventh hour worker who gets the same pay as those who work from the morning and the other is the thief at the cross who by a split moment decision was assured of heaven!
What about us then or me rather, who slog through life trying to be on the good side of God’s book knowing that any wrong move at the end of the day could cost my salvation? A non-Christian once challenge me to enjoy life first, be with the world and when one about to die to go for repentance, knowing that as God takes the eleventh hour worker and the thief at the cross he will do the same to us.
Any thought on this?
F
fhansen
Guest
I don’t think we get away with this.
You don’t possess the same “level of ignorance” as the thief. We were talking about something like this last night in RCIA. The Prodigal had to go out and experience the worlds values until he came to realize the emptiness of it all and turn back home. The “good son” was jealous of the reception the father gave to the Prodigal but the father was simply expressing the joy of having a lost one return home-the other son already had everything the father had to give. I think Luke 12:47-48 has something to offer here too:"That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
D
DPMartin
Guest
Reuben J
Thanks for the reply
That’s quite understandable, one’s place in the world can be demanding of one’s attention.
Participate in the world by not letting the world participate in you.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but at this time the Lord has allowed me a more contemplative time and sites like this bring opportunity in shared edification.
In all this talk about God’s Justice and Law I would like to add…
Take in consideration those in China in the news, and are rescued from the mine, if they would have died in the disaster, then they died, which no one could do anything about. (God’s Judgment) But if they live should they be left to die? Most certainly not. And notice that all who heard that they were rescued rejoiced. For the living were restored to living. Therefore all who seek to be with God should live, shouldn’t they?
So what is more important, the People or the work? Those that are sinners, (and aren’t we all), fall short of the work. But the sinner that desires to be with God lives, and any one who thinks that God would leave that soul to die, knows not the Merciful Love of God.
If God’s Commandments are not fulfilled we are buried from His Presence under the Law, but if they are fulfilled then through that fulfillment, we are not. So it is His Mercy and Forgiveness that is more important for the Life to save the Soul. That He would fulfill the Law in the Son of man.
God did not give His Commandments and Law so one can see the lack of fulfillment thereof in another. For He knows that already, and it is for God the Father to Judge. Jesus fulfilled in respect, and Love of the Father’s Will, for the sake of us all.
Hence the sense of urgency for those who would be in need of hearing the good news.
One enjoys good weather while it’s here, not while it is not here.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
I am glad that you passed through the ‘provocation’ and you’ve answered it well (with Lk12).I don’t think we get away with this.
"That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
This is what I meant and perhaps the crux of the matter. I would not be like the older son in that I would be jealous – I am more intrigued by the fact that **‘the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked’. **
R
Reuben_J
Guest
God bless you bro for saying this.
Thanks for reminding me of the merciful love of God. Very often we find a reason that can be seen to contradict his mercy. And there are so many happenings in the world – things that happen that should not be. And one asks – where is the love of God? Is this his justice? And that’s never easy to answer. Why do I have an incurable disease when everything is about to look so good for me and others don’t? Why there is death of a loved one at inopportune time?
Amen!
C
Crumpy
Guest
There’s a conversation going on in this thread, and it has advanced from the starting point. But, I’d like to offer something about the beginning of the discussion -maybe!
I’ve been reading Jewish commentaries on Genesis and others, and they focus on a literary analysis of the text. In the first creation account, the word for God is Elohim. Now, people get distracted with this word, because it alone says several things.
First, it’s plural, Second, it’s a generic word for “gods” or “spirits.” Third, it’s a word that strongly implied “judges.” God is a judge.
So, in that first creation account, when God makes something, He is not just praising it or Himself when He says that “it is good.” He’s judging it.
Therefore, as the commentary goes on, this reveals God as a judge. So, I’m going to simplify or oversimplify this and say that God being a judge relates to His justice (the topic of this thread).
Now, again, from a literary standpoint, the Jews says that the Torah (God’s instruction, the first five books of the Bible, the books of Moses) were composed at least a couple thousand years before creation, based on a text in scripture which I can’t cite to you right now.
So, you might say, that God knew that mankind was frail with respect to obeying Him and that the “Fall” of Adam and Eve was no surprise to God.
But God’s mercy is also a divine characteristic that is revealed in the second creation account. In Hebrew moreso than in English, it is clear that when Eve finally gets around to speaking, surprise, surprise, she is using the most holy Name of God, the Name which later cannot even be spoken because it is so holy – YHWH (Yahweh). And, we don’t have the scriptural basis for knowing how she learned God’s name, by the way. It’s just not there.
But, this is the Name that is most consistently used with respect to the merciful aspect of God. Now you realize that in these chapters of Genesis, there’s a lot going on. but this merciful aspect is there right from the beginning.
In spite of her sin, God fulfills His earlier gift and blessing of childbearing, and, even after sin, her childbearing echoes back to the first creation account, of women being made in the image and likeness of God – and with childbearing, this is part of the creation that God has started. So the childbearing is a reflection of God’s mercy, with the provisions that God makes after the Fall.
There is only one God, and His justice and mercy are infinitely linked.
I hope this helps with the original post.
I’ve been reading Jewish commentaries on Genesis and others, and they focus on a literary analysis of the text. In the first creation account, the word for God is Elohim. Now, people get distracted with this word, because it alone says several things.
First, it’s plural, Second, it’s a generic word for “gods” or “spirits.” Third, it’s a word that strongly implied “judges.” God is a judge.
So, in that first creation account, when God makes something, He is not just praising it or Himself when He says that “it is good.” He’s judging it.
Therefore, as the commentary goes on, this reveals God as a judge. So, I’m going to simplify or oversimplify this and say that God being a judge relates to His justice (the topic of this thread).
Now, again, from a literary standpoint, the Jews says that the Torah (God’s instruction, the first five books of the Bible, the books of Moses) were composed at least a couple thousand years before creation, based on a text in scripture which I can’t cite to you right now.
So, you might say, that God knew that mankind was frail with respect to obeying Him and that the “Fall” of Adam and Eve was no surprise to God.
But God’s mercy is also a divine characteristic that is revealed in the second creation account. In Hebrew moreso than in English, it is clear that when Eve finally gets around to speaking, surprise, surprise, she is using the most holy Name of God, the Name which later cannot even be spoken because it is so holy – YHWH (Yahweh). And, we don’t have the scriptural basis for knowing how she learned God’s name, by the way. It’s just not there.
But, this is the Name that is most consistently used with respect to the merciful aspect of God. Now you realize that in these chapters of Genesis, there’s a lot going on. but this merciful aspect is there right from the beginning.
In spite of her sin, God fulfills His earlier gift and blessing of childbearing, and, even after sin, her childbearing echoes back to the first creation account, of women being made in the image and likeness of God – and with childbearing, this is part of the creation that God has started. So the childbearing is a reflection of God’s mercy, with the provisions that God makes after the Fall.
There is only one God, and His justice and mercy are infinitely linked.
I hope this helps with the original post.
- Status