God's knowledge of human actions

[Pieman333272]

OK, I’m wondering about God’s knowledge of human actions, like free will and stuff. I see problems in each explanation, so I was hoping if someone could answer them or offer a source on the issue to read.

1. God knows what we choose, but we choose it freely:
   First, If this is true, then why does God let us exist if we will choose hell, and do evils in this world? And most of all, he knew the fall would happen, so why not Also, doesn’t this mean God knows what he is bound to choose freely too?
2. God knows all possible options but not which will happen
   But then how does he know prophecy? Like Jesus and Judas and such like that?
3. We are destined to do our actions
   But then God is responsible for our evil, and free will doesn’t exist.

Any thoughts? Or resources on the issue?

 

[lynx]

OK, I’m wondering about God’s knowledge of human actions, like free will and stuff. I see problems in each explanation, so I was hoping if someone could answer them or offer a source on the issue to read.

1. God knows what we choose, but we choose it freely:
   First, If this is true, then why does God let us exist if we will choose hell, and do evils in this world? And most of all, he knew the fall would happen, so why not Also, doesn’t this mean God knows what he is bound to choose freely too?
2. God knows all possible options but not which will happen
   But then how does he know prophecy? Like Jesus and Judas and such like that?
3. We are destined to do our actions
   But then God is responsible for our evil, and free will doesn’t exist.

Any thoughts? Or resources on the issue?

1. I doubt this is the case because it violates traditional free will. If God knows our path, and directs our path to sin, then our sins are by God’s hand. I find this unlikely.
2. I would think, not violating point one, that God knows all outcomes of all possible realities that one can choose. That is to say He gives you an infinite number of choices within his plan. It doesn’t matter which path you choose, in all possible outcomes you follow His plan which is infinite in scope.
3. We are responsible for our actions. God doesn’t force you or anyone to do anything. Whether you choose his preferred way or your own, He has a path for that.

Just my 2cents.

 

[Scoobyshme]

OK, I’m wondering about God’s knowledge of human actions, like free will and stuff. I see problems in each explanation, so I was hoping if someone could answer them or offer a source on the issue to read.

1. God knows what we choose, but we choose it freely:
   First, If this is true, then why does God let us exist if we will choose hell, and do evils in this world? And most of all, he knew the fall would happen, so why not Also, doesn’t this mean God knows what he is bound to choose freely too?

God allows us to exist for His own reasons. We do not know why God does everything God does. We are not God, nor are we on his level in any way. I think it’s more like this: The hot sun, shining on wax, melts it. The hot sun, shining on mud, makes it hard. It is the same sun shining on both, but the nature of each determines its outcome. God equally “shines” on all humans. We, through our actions (or sometimes inaction, as in sins of omission), choose heaven or hell. It is not God that “throws” us into hell, but we, through our actions, choose hell, or heaven. That’s just a way of explaining what happens. When we commit mortal sin, we “kill” Divine life in our soul (Sanctifying Grace). Without Sanctifying Grace, we cannot survive in God’s presence in the next life. We couldn’t stand to be in His presence one moment!

1. God knows all possible options but not which will happen
   But then how does he know prophecy? Like Jesus and Judas and such like that?

God does indeed know which options we will choose. He is outside of time. He simultaneously exists in the past, present, and future. He does not “foresee” the future, but “sees” the future, as you and I see the present moment.

1. We are destined to do our actions
   But then God is responsible for our evil, and free will doesn’t exist.

No, we are not “destined” to do our actions, if, by “destined” you mean we have no choice. We have free will to choose our actions, otherwise, we could not be held culpable.

Any thoughts? Or resources on the issue?

 

[mosher]

The answer is simple. God knows all. If God didn’t know somthing then he would lack some perfection. However, God is, by definition perfect. God, must know all. I don’t say that he knows all that can be known because I don’t want to confuse God’s mode of knowledge with our mode of knowledge.

I would suggest a read of the Summa Theologiae on this issue. St. Thomas dedicates 16 articles to God’s knowledge. It is Question 16 of the First Part. The Summa is online in english at newadvent.org.

 

[tonyrey]

1. God knows what we choose, but we choose it freely:
   First, If this is true, then why does God let us exist if we will choose hell, and do evils in this world?

God created us to be free to choose but if we cannot choose hell we cannot be free to choose…

And most of all, he knew the fall would happen, so why not Also, doesn’t this mean God knows what he is bound to choose freely too?

If God is bound to choose He is not free to choose…
If God doesn’t know what He is going to choose He doesn’t know what to choose…

1. God knows all possible options but not which will happen.

God knows everything that is knowable. We cannot know everything that is knowable because we do not know everything…

1. We are destined to do our actions
   But then God is responsible for our evil, and free will doesn’t exist.

We are destined by God to shape our own destiny so we must have free will!

 

[GreggAlvarez]

1. God knows what we choose, but we choose it freely:
   First, If this is true, then why does God let us exist if we will choose hell, and do evils in this world? And most of all, he knew the fall would happen, so why not Also, doesn’t this mean God knows what he is bound to choose freely too?

1. We have to consider what Hell is. Some people assume that Hell is literally fire or sulphur or liquid lead. Although those are scary, we have to look at what the Bible says and how it is said. God Himself is called “a consuming fire”. Are we supposed to assume that God is literally fire? If this is not literal in any sense, how could we imagine that it would be literal in another place when to describe something else? I am not claiming it is not literal. I am just saying we cannot know. Anyway, what Hell is is being without that “consuming fire” or better yet, an eternal running-away of that “consuming fire”.

My point is that God knows some will reject that Divine Love and choose their own will over their. God loves freedom more than He hates sin, so it would only seem logical that He would grant that lovelessness that they so desired. Or at least lovelessness for God. Hell could also be seen as a place of complete egotism, selfishness, hatred, idolatrous… in a certain sense. I just finished reading Robert Butler’s “Hell” (hilarious novel) and his idea Hell was complete havoc. Nobody ever got what they wanted. Bobby Fisher never won a game of chess. Hatcher, the protagonist, was a news reporter that NEVER got an answer. Celine Dion, Tupac, John Travolta and others were eternally arguing for who will get to sing lead in a polka hit. Truth is, we have no clue WHAT Hell is like. We just know that it will be eternal torment and I do not want to find out the hard way.

Anyway, I think you get my point. This all comes back to unconditional love. God created us for loving us, and the gift of love could very well be returned, but some of us will reject it and love ourselves and worldly things a little too much.

1. He sent His Son to do the redo what Adam undid. That accounts for that. Think about it with the above statement. Adam and Eve opened up Hell because of pride and a deceitful angel. (As a disclaimer, I am not claiming to know whether or not Adam and Eve are in Hell.) Jesus opened back up Heaven through Divine Justice. Love covers a multitude of sins. But, why did He not just make Adam and Eve Junior? Because He loves freedom more than He hates sin. Why did He destroy those bad people in the Flood? Because He knew it would make matters even worse had He let them continue to worsen humanity. In any case, that is why Jesus went to go preach those “souls in prison”. Perhaps, they were not SOO bad that they deserved Hell, but God granted that mercy through Purgatory. But, also remember that Heaven was not opened back up until Christ’s Ascension… (I think or maybe Resurrection.) Anyway, you get my drift.

1. God knows all possible options but not which will happen
   But then how does he know prophecy? Like Jesus and Judas and such like that?

If He knew all possible outcomes but not which will happen, then by the process of elimination God would know what will happen.

1. We are destined to do our actions
   But then God is responsible for our evil, and free will doesn’t exist.

Agreed.

Looks like the only logical statement is your first one.

Any thoughts? Or resources on the issue?

This probably did not help at all. But, I hope helped.

Take care