God's love - is it individual or collective?

[Edmond_H]

Jesus loves ME this I know for the Bible tells me so!

Really? Where?

As a protestant, I always believed this because my tradition spoke to this notion - the love of a Divine Person for an individual person (a person to person kind of love). As a future Catholic (I hope to be received this Easter), I am doubting this individualistic sort of love that God might or might not have for me.

Scripture is full of passages of God’s love for humanity (For God so loved the world…etc). That is clear to me. What is fuzzy is if God loves each person individually (and equally!) as well. And if so, what in Scripture and Tradition points to this? It is also clear that God calls particular human beings as part of salvation history. He calls Saul/Paul by name for example. He speaks and works through particular people in relation with him throughout the OT, and by the same token also loves a particular people collectively (the Jews). We then have a flip where God loves all humanity through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. God continues to call individuals, and yes, that is a loving and perfect invitation. But once accepted it seems to me that that love is shown through an individual being a part of His Body.

Yes, I am part of that humanity and am loved by that perfect invitation into relation with Him and participation in His Body. But outside of that (not like I need more!), am I loved individually by God? What is Church teaching on this? Many Christians are adamant that God does love me individually. I ask for either scriptural proof or some sort of Church document on the subject, and they can’t come up with anything.

So does God love YOU personally and intimately, or does God love the YOU that is PART of humanity (of which he is passionately in love with)?

Any help would be appreciated!

 

[Waiting]

You will be receiving answers from those quoting scripture, I imagine, but speaking from experience I can tell you that God is not limited in His love to either individuals or groups. My sister once said that I receive so much attention from the Lord that He doesn’t have time to listen to her. She was joking, but you get the idea that He gives a lot of attention to individuals. He’s even given us our own Guardian Angel to watch over us. But then, each country has an angel assigned to it, also. Mary has made several appearances to warn the people of disasters that will come to the country if certain moral conditions aren’t changed. God’s love is all encompassing. Don’t try to fence Him in.

 

[JM3]

Jesus loves ME this I know for the Bible tells me so!

Really? Where?

So does God love YOU personally and intimately, or does God love the YOU that is PART of humanity (of which he is passionately in love with)?

Any help would be appreciated!

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/travels/documents/hf_jp-ii_hom_22081997_en.html

Beatification of Frédéric Ozanam

HOMILY OF JOHN PAUL II

1. “Love is of God” (1 Jn 4:7). Today’s Gospel presents us with the figure of the Good Samaritan. In this parable, Christ wants to show his listeners who is the neighbour mentioned in the great commandment of the divine Law: “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbour as yourself” (Lk 10:27). A doctor of the Law was asking what he should do to have eternal life: he found in these words the decisive answer. He knew that love of God and neighbour is the first and greatest of the commandments. Despite this, he asks “And who is my neighbour?” (Lk 10:29).

The fact that Jesus proposes a Samaritan as an example to answer this question is significant. In effect, the Samaritans were not particularly esteemed by the Jews. Moreover, Christ compares the conduct of this man to that of a priest and a Levite who see the man wounded by brigands, lying half dead on the road, and pass by without giving him any help. On the contrary, the Samaritan, who sees the suffering man, “had compassion” (Lk 10:33). His compassion brings him to perform a whole series of actions. First he bandaged his wounds, then he took the wounded man to an inn to care for him and, before leaving, he give the inn keeper the necessary money to take care of him (cf. Lk 10:34-35). This example is eloquent. The doctor of the Law received a clear answer to his question: Who is my neighbour? The neighbour is every human being without exception. It is not necessary to ask his nationality, or to which social or religious group he belongs. If he is in need, he must be helped. This is what is required by the first and greatest divine Law, the law of love of God and neighbour.

Faithful to this commandment of the Lord, Frédéric Ozanam believed in love, the love of God for every individual. He felt himself called to love, giving the example of a great love for God and others. He went to all those who needed to be loved more than others, those to whom the love of God could not be revealed effectively except through the love of another person. There Ozanam discovered his vocation, the path to which Christ called him. He found his road to sanctity. And he followed it with determination.

1. “Love is of God”. Love of man has its origin in the Law of God: our first reading from the Old Testament shows this. We find there a detailed description of the actions involved in loving our neighbour. It is like a biblical preparation for the parable of the Good Samaritan.

The second reading, taken from the First Letter of Saint John, explains the meaning of the words “Love is of God”. The Apostle writes to his disciples: “Beloved, let us love one another; for love is of God, and he who loves is born of God and knows God. He who does not love does not know God; for God is love.” (1 Jn 4:7-8). This saying of the Apostle is really at the centre of the New Covenant, the apex towards which all that is written in the Gospels and the Apostolic Letters leads us. Saint John continues: “In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins” (ibid., 10).** The remission of sins is a sign of the love which the Son of God made man has brought us. Then, love of neighbour, love of every human being, is not only a commandment. It is a demand which is consequent on the living experience of God’s love. That is why John can write: “Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another” (1 Jn 4:11).**
The teaching of the Letter of John continues as the Apostle writes: “No man has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us. By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his own Spirit” (1 Jn 4:12-13). Love, then, is the source of knowledge. If, on the one hand, knowledge is a condition of love, on the other, love makes our knowledge grow. If we remain in love, we intimately experience the action of the Holy Spirit who enables us to participate in the redeeming love of the Son whom the Father has sent to save the world. By knowing Christ as the Son of God, we remain in him and, through him, we remain in God. Through the merits of Christ we believe in love, we know the love that God has for us, we know that God is love (cf. 1 Jn 4:16). This knowledge through love is in some way the keystone of the whole spiritual life of the Christian. “He who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him” (ibid.).

Romans 13:10

Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

 

[Edmond_H]

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/travels/documents/hf_jp-ii_hom_22081997_en.html

Beatification of Frédéric Ozanam

HOMILY OF JOHN PAUL II
.

Thanks for this.

Again, this homily speaks to a collective love (outside of the belief of Blessed Frederic’s that God loves each individual through his own loving actions).

Is it possible that God only loves the individual via his Body? It certainly seems that way to me so far.

In referencing the Samaritan, it seems even more plausible. God loves humanity. We should love God and humanity as well. These individual distinctions, although important for maintaining metaphysical and physical distinctions, are in essence stumbling blocks. I say this with some exceptions (in particular when God chose specific people to express salvation history- Abraham, Moses, Mary, Paul, Peter, all the Popes and Saints, etc). Outside of these very special people, we are only parts of a much loved humanity. That is where our value is. Not in being Edmond_H or whoever, but by being a human creature in his creation.

Am I wrong, or am I missing something here?

 

[Edmond_H]

Threads merged per the Forum Rules

 

[HickmanJosh]

So does God love YOU personally and intimately, or does God love the YOU that is PART of humanity (of which he is passionately in love with)?

Any help would be appreciated!

well God created us, we wouldn’t exist unless He wanted us to exist

 

[Catholic90]

From Luke:
6 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God? 7 Yea, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: you are of more value than many sparrows.

 

[Della]

God knows and loves each of us, knowing who we are and creating us for himself:

Ps.139
[0] To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David.
[1] O LORD, thou hast searched me and known me!
[2] Thou knowest when I sit down and when I rise up;
thou discernest my thoughts from afar.
[3] Thou searchest out my path and my lying down,
and art acquainted with all my ways.
[4] Even before a word is on my tongue,
lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
[5] Thou dost beset me behind and before,
and layest thy hand upon me.
[6] Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
it is high, I cannot attain it.
[13] For thou didst form my inward parts,
thou didst knit me together in my mother’s womb.

Matthew 10
[29] Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father’s will.
[30] But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.
[31] Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

If God did not love the individual why would he bother to number the hairs of our heads or to “knit” us together, i.e., know us intimately as individuals?

Jesus’ death on the cross was for each and every one of us, not for the “mass of humanity”. Jesus told us to “love your neighbor” because he is another individual loved by God just like you, not just the “mass of humanity”.

G. K. Chesterton once wrote: “The Bible tells us to love our neighbors, and also to love our enemies probably because they are generally the same people.” Neighbors are individuals with whom you either get along or you don’t. If God didn’t care for the individual he wouldn’t command us to love the people right next door.

Charles Schulz once had one of his characters say: “I love humanity, it’s people I can’t stand”. It’s all too easy to love the great mass of unknowns for whom one can feel no personal responsibility before God, but much harder to love the guy who borrows your lawnmower and never returns it.

 

[po18guy]

I initially posted this thread in the Scripture section, but I wanted to post it here too in case there is a philosophical argument that might be of use as well. Sorry for the double post if y’all already read it. Peace!..Edmond

Jesus loves ME this I know for the Bible tells me so!

Really? Where?

As a protestant, I always believed this because my tradition spoke to this notion - the love of a Divine Person for an individual person (a person to person kind of love). As a future Catholic (I hope to be received this Easter), I am doubting this individualistic sort of love that God might or might not have for me.

Scripture is full of passages of God’s love for humanity (For God so loved the world…etc). That is clear to me. What is fuzzy is if God loves each person individually (and equally!) as well. And if so, what in Scripture and Tradition (and/or philosophy) points to this? It is also clear that God calls particular human beings as part of salvation history. He calls Saul/Paul by name for example. He speaks and works through particular people in relation with him throughout the OT, and by the same token also loves a particular people collectively (the Jews). We then have a flip where God loves all humanity through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. God continues to call individuals, and yes, that is a loving and perfect invitation. But once accepted it seems to me that that love is shown through an individual being a part of His Body.

Yes, I am part of that humanity and am loved by that perfect invitation into relation with Him and participation in His Body. But outside of that (not like I need more!), am I loved individually by God? What is Church teaching on this? Many Christians are adamant that God does love me individually. I ask for either scriptural proof or some sort of Church document on the subject, and they can’t come up with anything.

So does God love YOU personally and intimately, or does God love the YOU that is PART of humanity (of which he is passionately in love with)?

Any help would be appreciated!

If God did not love you personally, then His Son would not send anyone personally into judgment, but would judge all of mankind together. Of course, we would then be doomed - save for His mercy. God loves all of creation, both individually and collectively. It is out of love that He creates. He created you and I and every living and non-living thing individually, and so loves all of His creation that He sees as being “very good”. Of course, he loves us each - His Son taught to masses, but also to individuals, such as Nicodemus (John 3:1-21), Zacchaeus (Luke 19:1-10), and the woman at Jacob’s well (John 4:5-29).

However, we the baptized are part of Jesus’ one Body, and so are loved both individually and collectively. But, at death, we are judged individually (Revelation 20:12-13). So many today make the man-made argument of 'either/or", but God is not limited as man is. In matters of God’s love, it is always “both/and”.

 

[Edmond_H]

well God created us, we wouldn’t exist unless He wanted us to exist

Yes, I am loved and good because I am part of creation. That part is humankind. God loves humankind of which I am part of. This is a collective love.

 

[Edmond_H]

From Luke:
6 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God? 7 Yea, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: you are of more value than many sparrows.

Yes, we humans are more valuable to God than birds. But this concept doesn’t address if he loves us individually.

 

[Edmond_H]

If God did not love you personally, then His Son would not send anyone personally into judgment, but would judge all of mankind together. Of course, we would then be doomed - save for His mercy. God loves all of creation, both individually and collectively. It is out of love that He creates. He created you and I and every living and non-living thing individually, and so loves all of His creation that He sees as being “very good”. Of course, he loves us each - His Son taught to masses, but also to individuals, such as Nicodemus (John 3:1-21), Zacchaeus (Luke 19:1-10), and the woman at Jacob’s well (John 4:5-29).

However, we the baptized are part of Jesus’ one Body, and so are loved both individually and collectively. But, at death, we are judged individually (Revelation 20:12-13). So many today make the man-made argument of 'either/or", but God is not limited as man is. In matters of God’s love, it is always “both/and”.

Thanks for your thoughts. These are excellent.
I too think God’s love is a “both/and” situation as well. But it is qualified as your point about judgment points out. It seems to me that God loves collectively and He loves the potential for human beings. He loves our future sanctified selves individually. That is the deep person to person love God has for us. The collective love is toward our universal sinful selves of which we all are pretty much the same in God’s eyes - puppies who poop on the floor (for lack of a better analogy…sorry, I like that one

I do think that God loves us individually through His call (as pointed out by the Scriptures you mentioned), but this is HOW he loves us in our current puppy state. He invites us into His Body. Outside of this invitation, I’m not so sure I would call it “love” the way we think about love as humans. The invitation is to live a life of love, in which God’s love is manifested slowly as we progress in relationship with Him.

But does He love me now? Warts and all? I would say, yes, but only in a qualified sense. He is a very disappointed loving Father.

Am I wrong?

 

[I_love_rocks]

It is written -
" Love one another, as I have loved you." (Jn 13:34)

“I have loved you with an everlasting love. I have called you, and you are mine.”
(Jer 31:3)

“…from everlasting to everlasting, the Lord’s love is with those who fear him.” (Ps103:17)

"… the Lord disciplines those He loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son. (Heb 12:6)

“Peter turned and saw that *the disciple whom Jesus loved * (singular) was following them.” Jn 21:20

 

[po18guy]

The collective love is toward our universal sinful selves of which we all are pretty much the same in God’s eyes - puppies who poop on the floor (for lack of a better analogy…sorry, I like that one

There is a military analogy about mess kits, but I need not go into that here…

But does He love me now? Warts and all? I would say, yes, but only in a qualified sense.

Well did Saint Paul write in Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” His love is unconditional, and infinite. Yet, it has both a reward in heaven for embracing it, as well as a cost in hell for rejecting it.

He is a very disappointed loving Father. Am I wrong?

Certainly not, because our sinfulness hurts Him. And, it is our free-will power to hurt Him in this way that calls His power of judgment upon us. He waits to use His judgment even though He is 100% justified in using it right now. His justice is held back by His love - but not forever. As a child, when you did wrong, your mother was disappointed, but never stopped loving you. She got that quality from our Lord.

 

[po18guy]

Yes, I am loved and good because I am part of creation. That part is humankind. God loves humankind of which I am part of. This is a collective love.

But, God loves you individually as well, or you would not have been created. Humanity would forever be incomplete without you. This points to the tragedy of abortion, in which mankind will never be complete as God intended it to be. Still, He loves even the abortionists (example here) as much as the babies they abort, and is calling them closer to Him.

 

[heather84th]

Welcome to the family! This Easter will mark my one year anniversary in the Church. I too come from a protestant background. First, let me share a verse with you:

Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13, RSV.

To deny that this verse refers to the individual is to say that salvation itself is collective, which is dark heresy.

From the tone of your posts, it seems as if you aren’t having trouble with concept of individual love of God, but with God’s love of you. None of us is worthy of God’s love, but he gives it anyway. It is a mystery.

I wonder if you have been to your First Reconciliation yet? If not, I would go right away. It may help you to feel Christ’s love for you individually in the forgiveness of your sins.

 

[Waiting]

Thanks for your thoughts. These are excellent.
I too think God’s love is a “both/and” situation as well. But it is qualified as your point about judgment points out. It seems to me that God loves collectively and He loves the potential for human beings. He loves our future sanctified selves individually. That is the deep person to person love God has for us. The collective love is toward our universal sinful selves of which we all are pretty much the same in God’s eyes - puppies who poop on the floor (for lack of a better analogy…sorry, I like that one

I do think that God loves us individually through His call (as pointed out by the Scriptures you mentioned), but this is HOW he loves us in our current puppy state. He invites us into His Body. Outside of this invitation, I’m not so sure I would call it “love” the way we think about love as humans. The invitation is to live a life of love, in which God’s love is manifested slowly as we progress in relationship with Him.

But does He love me now? Warts and all? I would say, yes, but only in a qualified sense. He is a very disappointed loving Father.

Am I wrong?

Yes, you’re wrong. God loves us unconditionally.

 

[PJM]

=Edmond_H;7713709]Jesus loves ME this I know for the Bible tells me so!

Really? Where?

As a protestant, I always believed this because my tradition spoke to this notion - the love of a Divine Person for an individual person (a person to person kind of love). As a future Catholic (I hope to be received this Easter), I am doubting this individualistic sort of love that God might or might not have for me.

Scripture is full of passages of God’s love for humanity (For God so loved the world…etc). That is clear to me. What is fuzzy is if God loves each person individually (and equally!) as well. And if so, what in Scripture and Tradition points to this? It is also clear that God calls particular human beings as part of salvation history. He calls Saul/Paul by name for example. He speaks and works through particular people in relation with him throughout the OT, and by the same token also loves a particular people collectively (the Jews). We then have a flip where God loves all humanity through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. God continues to call individuals, and yes, that is a loving and perfect invitation. But once accepted it seems to me that that love is shown through an individual being a part of His Body.

Any help would be appreciated!

GREAT QUESTION!

Matt.22: And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

There are NO LIMITS of God’s Love us individually and collectively!

John.3: 16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”

John.14: [21] He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him." [23] Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.”

John.11: " So the sisters sent to him, saying, “Lord, he whom you love is ill.” [5] Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Laz’arus".

John.19: [26] "When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!”

**Luke.12: [7] **“Why, even the hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not; you are of more value than many sparrows.”

**Gen. 1:26-27 ** “Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.” So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.”

**Rom.5: 8 **“But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.”

With confedience founded on the TRUTH; KNOW that God knows and LOVES each of us BOTH indivudually and as a Child of God!

Love and prayers,
Pat