God's love, wrath, and other "emotions"

[spockrates]

It is a sin for us as humans to condemn someone to hell. By the same token we can and some of us do condemn ourselves to hell by rejecting God himself and His ways by not repenting of mortal sins, final impenitence. However, unlike the fallen angels who denied themselves the beatific vision by the “Non Serviam,” the “I will not Serve” declaration, we have multiple chances throughout our lives to fall and “rise” again through God’s mrcy and forgiveness.

The fallen angels knew full well the consequences of their choices, yet still did it, thereby condemning themselves irrevocably to hell. They put themselves there, not God. We can do the same…

God has been merciful to us, he has not given us the same level of understanding or knowledge the angels all had (and still have). Though we can always utter a “Non Serviam,” we do not have to suffer the same consequences they did. God in his great mercy and love has provided us way to avoid going to hell in spite of our sinfulness. We have a lifetime of chances to sin but unlike the angels we have limitations in our nature, We can always repent of our sins and get back in God’s graces…confession.

We can always “blow it!” We must be constantly on guard, take advantage of the grace we receive through the Sacraments and live a holy life in the hope of gaining the Beatific Vision.

God Bless…

Bussi

Thank you, Bussi. I quite agree! It is not a sin for God to judge people according to their deeds and allow them to be condemned to Hell. That is, it is not a sin if they deserve what they get. Since forgiving someone is love, and judging someone is not love, then it is not a sin to not love when a person’s actions require God to withhold His love. Don’t you agree?

 

[spockrates]

It just occurred to me that perhaps what you are saying is that actions that appear loving are meaningless to God unless they are done with love for God and/or neighbor. Is that what you mean by compassion?

Yes. I’m understanding love to be a feeling of good will toward God and others.

If so, I think we are on the same page. I can, through an act of will, commit a loving (compassionate) action to fulfill God’s command to love my neighbor (thereby loving God also), even if I don’t feel compassionate (loving) towards my neighbor.

Do we agree?

Absolutely!



It would seem, then, that love is a feeling of compassion. To act in a way that appears loving, but to do so without genuine compassion, is not what God wants. Neither does He want us to feel compassion but fail to have the courage and determination to back up our feeling with action.

Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.

(1 John 3:18)

What do you think?

 

[momor]

Perhaps you are correct; that remains to be seen. Your answer to this question will get us closer to the truth, I hope:

If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

(1 Corinthians 13:3)

When are giving all one possesses to the poor and dying a martyr NOT acts of love?

When they are an attempt to buy one’s way into heaven?

However, I think most if not all people who would do that would do so out of love. Perhaps St. Paul was using hyperbole to make a point.

 

[spockrates]

When they are an attempt to buy one’s way into heaven?

However, I think most if not all people who would do that would do so out of love. Perhaps St. Paul was using hyperbole to make a point.

Do you mean to say, Momor, that the meaning the Apostle meant to convey was actually this?

If [it were possible to] give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I [would] gain nothing. [But, of course, it’s impossible to do such things and have not love!]

(1 Corinthians 13:3, revised)

 

[momor]

Do you mean to say, Momor, that the meaning the Apostle meant to convey was actually this?

If [it were possible to] give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I [would] gain nothing. [But, of course, it’s impossible to do such things and have not love!]

(1 Corinthians 13:3, revised)

Sounds good.

 

[spockrates]

Sounds good.

And when Jesus said

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

(John 3:16)

He was in no way saying that God feels any compassion for you, or me, or anyone. He was saying that God acts in a loving way without feeling any emotion or desire at all. Does this sound good too?

 

[Bussi]

*Isaias 55:8-9
For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.
*
I think that in all this ongoing discussion we all need to mindful of the fact that God is “Other” and attributing human attributes and acts of will get in the way of our coming to a real understanding of his nature which hopefully will come to some degree with attaining the Beatific vision in Heaven.

Years ago, I was introduced to the term “Other” by an extremely knowledgeable priest and my understanding of it is predicated to some degree on Isaias 55:8-9, that He is infinite,we are finite, we have emotions that are sometimes difficult to deal with because of our fallen (concupiscent) nature. God being “Other,” I am inclined to think that inasmuch as Love is a decision we humans must make as an act of of free will which can be tempered/affected by our fallen (concupiscent) nature/intellect, God in his simplicity and infinite holiness, is not subject to the kinds of imperfections we are when He exercises His Infinite Will

I can only try to avoid being like anyone of the blind men and the elephant. The blind man holding the tail said the elephant is like a rope; the one holding the trunk said the elephant is like a hose, the ear- a leaf; the side - a wall; a leg - a tree. I personally know that I must avoid this kind of approach to understanding what may or may not constitute emotions in His Divine Nature. I think that can only come with experiencing the Beatific Vision.

God is pure spirit, to us a infinite mystery, and in our attempts to understand His nature, we must be careful how describe His thoughts and actions in human terms. Analogic descriptions can be useful up to a certain extent in order to understand within our human capabilities but we must always keep in mind that there are infinite depths to the mystery of God’s thinking and actions. and we must live in the hope that we can only know these things we are searching for will be made known to us through through the Beatific vision.

Bussi

 

[spockrates]

Isaias 55:8-9
For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.…

Since God is other, Bussi, are we to strive to be other too?

“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

–Jesus (Matthew 5:48)

 

[Bussi]

Spockrates,

Striving to be “other” is what got Adam and Eve kicked out of the garden of Eden and then too, Lucifer’s and the fallen angel’s losing the possibility of attaining the beatific vision.

We humans, created beings as well as the 9 choirs of angels all run the risk of hell. The choice is up to us. Admittedly we, in sense, and I am not sure how to express it properly, somehow are gifted in some small way, (maybe almost infinitesimal) a share of the Divine Nature, the soul God creates when our human parent enter God’s creative/procreative sanctuary where our physical body is provided by our parents and God gives us our soul that animates our body. I have not read JP II’sTheology of the Body but i would not be surprised if it is covered in some detail.

We have multiple chances in this mortal life to decide where we will spend eternity, hell or union with God and the Beatific Vision because of His Mercy and the Sacraments. The angels had only one chance and we have many because of God’s boundless mercy. If Jesus made that infinite condescension of becoming a man, then I must try my best to emulate that humility of Jesus. (humility is the opposite of pride one which is one of the Capital/Deadly sins

There is at least one religion I know of that believes that Jesus was only a man at first but ultimately became a ******god. I have emphasized the “a” and the “g” purposely because that denomination also believes that every male member can become a ******god and have their own plane to rule.

Angels and humans are created beings and created beings simply do not attain “other” status. The only uncreated being is God Himself and He alone created us.

i can only, in the most succinct way express how I am called to be His humble servant (and not be self-serving) by being obedient to the answer of one of the questions in the Baltimore Catechism:

Q: Why did God make me?

A: To know Him, To love Him, to serve Him in this world and be happy with Him in the next.

I don’t understand what the “shrug” in your post means and if it sort of means a “so what,” then the answer to the above question is one I have never been able to “shrug” off even though there have been times that I have tried… and failed. It has been sort of like in the poem, “The Hound of Heaven” by Francis Thompson, (you can find it on the internet) that God has pursued me all my 70+ years, calling me back to Himself when I have run away from Him. There is a verse, Isaiah 43-1, I have called you by name, you are mine. I am His creature. I am His subject.

The only “escape” if you can call it that is hell but even then in spite of the person choosing hell, God still loves that person, a “good” He created but that "good’ rejected Him totally distorting it. How are we to really understand in this life the “Otherness” of God’s love, His total nature. I don’t think so. And how much will we be able to understand if we do make it to the Beatific Vision? We certainly won’t have complete understanding of God’s total nature because it would mean we would become a ******god!

God bless…

Bussi

 

[Bussi]

Since God is other, Bussi, are we to strive to be other too?

“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

–Jesus (Matthew 5:48)

I apologize that I got off on a different tack in my last reply.

There is only one level of perfection that a human can attain. because our finite nature and the fact that God is absolutely/infinitely perfect, and the fact that sometimes the authors of the Bible, inspired by God Himself, have used hyperboles, a literary device to emphasize point they are trying to make,

That said, we can only try to emulate perfection due to the limitations of our human nature. I can only try to live a holy life whatever reward God chooses to bestow on me when He calls me to Him. Jesus said, “there are many mansions in My Father’s house.”
In thinking about what this means, I have to understand that like the 9 ranks of angels, maybe that “mansions” means that we we will be ranked in similar fashion. I don’t know.
I don’t even know if anyone else knows. I guess I will know when/if I do get to Heaven. To me, I will at least be happy if I just get there. (“I have been saved, I am being saved, and I live in the Hope of being saved,” as a Catholic, this is my response to the question, “are you saved?”)

We are all called to sainthood, Not just those persons who are recognized and proclaimed
saints by the Church. They are models of holiness for which we are to aspire to in our own lives. It’s been said that only saints are in heaven. JP II canonized so very many simply to demonstrate that sainthood is possible in ordinary hum-drum lives. by simply living a holy life that earns the approbation of God’s “Well done, good and faithful servant!”

I can only respond to the urgings of the Holy Spirit which have been frequent and have only really understood them in hindsight. the key to that understanding is that he has put me in situation and in encounters with people that result in something He wants to accomplish and it is only afterward that I have been able to recognize His hand in them

God bless…

Bussi

 

[spockrates]

Spockrates,

Striving to be “other” is what got Adam and Eve kicked out of the garden of Eden and then too, Lucifer’s and the fallen angel’s losing the possibility of attaining the beatific vision.

… If Jesus made that infinite condescension of becoming a man, then I must try my best to emulate that humility of Jesus. (humility is the opposite of pride one which is one of the Capital/Deadly sins …

Then I’m confused. Bussi. You say that God is other, and we are not. I’m sure you agree that God, being other, is perfect, and you and I, being other than other, are something other than perfect. So what I’m asking is this: When Jesus says

“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

(Matthew 5:48)

is He telling you and me to be other than we are, which is other, as God is other? or is He telling you and me to remain as we are, which is other than other? What do you say, my brother?



(BTW, I care very much what you have to say; the shrug means, “I don’t know the answer, do you?”)

 

[spockrates]

I apologize that I got off on a different tack in my last reply.

There is only one level of perfection that a human can attain. because our finite nature and the fact that God is absolutely/infinitely perfect, and the fact that sometimes the authors of the Bible, inspired by God Himself, have used hyperboles, a literary device to emphasize point they are trying to make,

That said, we can only try to emulate perfection due to the limitations of our human nature. I can only try to live a holy life whatever reward God chooses to bestow on me when He calls me to Him. Jesus said, “there are many mansions in My Father’s house.”
In thinking about what this means, I have to understand that like the 9 ranks of angels, maybe that “mansions” means that we we will be ranked in similar fashion. I don’t know.
I don’t even know if anyone else knows. I guess I will know when/if I do get to Heaven. To me, I will at least be happy if I just get there. (“I have been saved, I am being saved, and I live in the Hope of being saved,” as a Catholic, this is my response to the question, “are you saved?”)

We are all called to sainthood, Not just those persons who are recognized and proclaimed
saints by the Church. They are models of holiness for which we are to aspire to in our own lives. It’s been said that only saints are in heaven. JP II canonized so very many simply to demonstrate that sainthood is possible in ordinary hum-drum lives. by simply living a holy life that earns the approbation of God’s “Well done, good and faithful servant!”

I can only respond to the urgings of the Holy Spirit which have been frequent and have only really understood them in hindsight. the key to that understanding is that he has put me in situation and in encounters with people that result in something He wants to accomplish and it is only afterward that I have been able to recognize His hand in them

God bless…

Bussi

So you are saying that you and I should strive to become perfect like God, and yet realize that we can never be as perfect as God?

 

[davidv]

Then I’m confused. Bussi. You say that God is other, and we are not. I’m sure you agree that God, being other, is perfect, and you and I, being other than other, are something other than perfect. So what I’m asking is this: When Jesus says
“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

(Matthew 5:48)
is He telling you and me to be other than we are, which is other, as God is other? or is He telling you and me to remain as we are, which is other than other? What do you say, my brother?



(BTW, I care very much what you have to say; the shrug means, “I don’t know the answer, do you?”)

It seems to me that the problem lies in equating God’s perfection to the perfection we, as humans, are called to. As a finite creature we cannot possibly attain the infinite perfection of God. We can however, with the grace of God, be the perfect human, at least at the end of this earthly life.

 

[Bussi]

Thank you, Bussi. I quite agree! It is not a sin for God to judge people according to their deeds and allow them to be condemned to Hell. That is, it is not a sin if they deserve what they get. Since forgiving someone is love, and judging someone is not love, then it is not a sin to not love when a person’s actions require God to withhold His love. Don’t you agree?

We are to love God with all our hearts and our neighbors as we love ourselves, to leave sinners to God’s Mercy, and, throw ourselves at His feet and praying and begging for His Mercy upon us all. As an evangelist once said in a talk, "there are so many “do’s” in the bible that if you do all the “do’s,” you won’t have time to do the “don’t’s.”

Because of the infiniteness of God’s Mercy and Justice. and how we but dimly perceive how they work so perfectly in unison with each other (no other possibility), one can fall into an extremely faulty line of thinking that even those in hell will eventually will be forgiven and released because of God’s infinite Mercy at the end of time. But, this implies that His perfect Justice will of necessity change and further implying that God can change. However, God IS, the changeless One, and not arbitrary or vindictive and wills only good for each of us, not evil. We are the ones who are capable of perpetrating evil acts.

God exists in the ever present “Now,” and doesn’t experience the passage of time as we do, except for the one brief period of 33 years about two thousand years ago.

I leave you with the following:

Isaias 55:8-9

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord. 9 For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts. (Douay-Rheims bible online, drbo.org)

God bless…

Bussi

 

[spockrates]

It seems to me that the problem lies in equating God’s perfection to the perfection we, as humans, are called to. As a finite creature we cannot possibly attain the infinite perfection of God. We can however, with the grace of God, be the perfect human, at least at the end of this earthly life.

David:

Thank you for replying! Socrates said:

A wise man is not likely to talk nonsense. Let us try to understand him.

(Theaetetus, 152)

And who is more wise and more worthy of our attempting to understand him than Jesus Christ?



When you say, “We can however, with the grace of God, be the perfect human, at least at the end of this earthly life,” do you mean that we cannot possibly be perfect until after death?

 

[spockrates]

We are to love God with all our hearts and our neighbors as we love ourselves, to leave sinners to God’s Mercy, and, throw ourselves at His feet and praying and begging for His Mercy upon us all. As an evangelist once said in a talk, "there are so many “do’s” in the bible that if you do all the “do’s,” you won’t have time to do the “don’t’s.”

Sounds good to me!

Because of the infiniteness of God’s Mercy and Justice. and how we but dimly perceive how they work so perfectly in unison with each other (no other possibility), one can fall into an extremely faulty line of thinking that even those in hell will eventually will be forgiven and released because of God’s infinite Mercy at the end of time. But, this implies that His perfect Justice will of necessity change and further implying that God can change. However, God IS, the changeless One, and not arbitrary or vindictive and wills only good for each of us, not evil. We are the ones who are capable of perpetrating evil acts. God exists in the ever present “Now,” and doesn’t experience the passage of time as we do, except for the one brief period of 33 years about two thousand years ago. …

Then, as Socrates said,

You and I must not be guilty of this fundamental error that we condemn in others.

(Phaedrus, 237)

In this case, you and I should not believe that Hell is not forever. However, the question still remains:

Since eternal condemnation is an act of justice rather than an act of love, how can it be a sin to not love if one does so justly?

 

[spockrates]

…
I leave you with the following:

Isaias 55:8-9

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord. 9 For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts. (Douay-Rheims bible online, drbo.org)

And Saint Paul the Apostle replies with the following:

“For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

(1 Corinthians 2:16)

And I hope you will return to answer this question: Should those who have the mind of Christ try to understand His thoughts?

 

[davidv]

David:

Thank you for replying! Socrates said:
A wise man is not likely to talk nonsense. Let us try to understand him.

(Theaetetus, 152)
And who is more wise and more worthy of our attempting to understand him than Jesus Christ?



When you say, “We can however, with the grace of God, be the perfect human, at least at the end of this earthly life,” do you mean that we cannot possibly be perfect until after death?

I wouldn’t say impossible, but for most of us, I think it is quite unlikely.

 

[davidv]

Sounds good to me!



Then, as Socrates said,
You and I must not be guilty of this fundamental error that we condemn in others.

(Phaedrus, 237)
In this case, you and I should not believe that Hell is not forever. However, the question still remains:

Since eternal condemnation is an act of justice rather than an act of love, how can it be a sin to not love if one does so justly?

Why can’t condemnation be both and act of love and of justice?

Why would it be loving to force someone to be in your presence when they don’t want to be in your presence?

 

[spockrates]

I wouldn’t say impossible, but for most of us, I think it is quite unlikely.

Then I suppose you and I would be wise to become one of the unlikely ones!