God's mercy vs God's justice

[steve_b]

Not by innocent parties.

Why is that such an issue?

 

[snarflemike]

Why is that such an issue?

Because the concept of justice is such an issue.

What is at issue is not what God has done for us (obviously), but rather what I perceive as a very false, almost perverse, view of what and how and why it was done for us.

I don’t think that the Eastern Churches, or Eastern Catholicism, hold such a view, so it is not the only possible view. Somebody can correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[meltzerboy]

Because the concept of justice is such an issue.

What is at issue is not what God has done for us (obviously), but rather what I perceive as a very false, almost perverse, view of what and how and why it was done for us.

I don’t think that the Eastern Churches, or Eastern Catholicism, hold such a view, so it is not the only possible view. Somebody can correct me if I’m wrong.

Although I don’t agree with the Catholic perspective, what exactly is “almost perverse” about it? And what “view” are you talking about that differs from that of Eastern Catholicism?

 

[shocktrooper]

Something I hear fairly often just makes me crazy. It goes like this (with variations):

God’s justice is perfect, so he could not let our sins go unpunished
God’s mercy is also perfect, so he sent his Son to undergo the punishment.

Now as any moral being knows, sending an innocent victim to be punished for the actions of another is NOT just. So why do we keep hearing explanations like this one in Christian apologetics?

Originally Sin brought about an irreparable chasm between God and man. Thus, Christ, as the second Person of the Trinity, chose to redeem mankind by His own doing, giving us the grace to return back to God. So God, Himself, paid the ransom. This ultimately means, to me, that the debt was paid by God, to God. Justice does not forbid a person or God to receive payment for a dept owed to them by another party who freely chooses to pay it.

Now if Christ was forced to pay this dept that was not his own, then I would be more inclined to agree with you.

Another thing to keep in mind is that we do still suffer and experience physical death, a consequence of Original Sin. Christ provided the ladder, via the Cross, so we can be reconciled to God, but that does not mean his punishment stands in our place. We will surely suffer and die, but united to and with Christ, we will carry our crosses up the mountain and behold the face of God.

God bless!

 

[snarflemike]

Although I don’t agree with the Catholic perspective, what exactly is “almost perverse” about it?

That God’s perfect justice requires what appears to be a gross injustice.

And what “view” are you talking about that differs from that of Eastern Catholicism?

Alas, I don’t know enough Eastern theology to make a clear statement. But I’m pretty sure I have read statements to that effect many times.

 

[snarflemike]

Now if Christ was forced to pay this dept that was not his own, then I would be more inclined to agree with you.

The Son didn’t volunteer, he obeyed the Father. Not my will but thine.

I repeat, I know the Father and the Son did not do anything bad here (duh!). The issue, I am convinced, is a flawed explanation for what the Father and the Son did.

 

[thenobes]

The Son didn’t volunteer, he obeyed the Father. Not my will but thine.

I repeat, I know the Father and the Son did not do anything bad here (duh!). The issue, I am convinced, is a flawed explanation for what the Father and the Son did.

I agree with you. But I think the solution is that when we are one with Christ, that is, “in His Body”, we are accorded as having offered the same sacrifice to the Father He did.

However, the Sacrifice is not punishment, but propitiation, otherwise the sacrifice would have been the punishment of an innocent man.

peace
steve

 

[thenobes]

The Son didn’t volunteer, he obeyed the Father. Not my will but thine.

I repeat, I know the Father and the Son did not do anything bad here (duh!). The issue, I am convinced, is a flawed explanation for what the Father and the Son did.

I agree with you. But I think the solution is that when we are one with Christ, that is, “in His Body”, we are accorded as having offered the same sacrifice to the Father He did.

However, the Sacrifice is not punishment, but propitiation, otherwise the sacrifice would have been the punishment of an innocent man.

peace
steve

 

[shocktrooper]

The Son didn’t volunteer, he obeyed the Father. Not my will but thine.

I repeat, I know the Father and the Son did not do anything bad here (duh!). The issue, I am convinced, is a flawed explanation for what the Father and the Son did.

How do you know the Son did not volunteer? In His divine person, Christ may have done just that. In His human nature, he had human tendencies and reached out to the Father in prayer many times. We see the humanness of Christ in the garden. And even if He did not “volunteer”, He still freely chose to please the Father.

And I agree with the above comment that the Resurrection changes all of this. The Father knew His Son would conquer death. This should surely change the way you look at things if you agree the Father and Son always knew from eternity this was all going to happen.

 

[snarflemike]

How do you know the Son did not volunteer? In His divine person, Christ may have done just that. In His human nature, he had human tendencies and reached out to the Father in prayer many times. We see the humanness of Christ in the garden. And even if He did not “volunteer”, He still freely chose to please the Father.

Whether he volunteered or not (and scripture makes it very clear that he came in obedience to the Father), it is not justice to accept the death of an innocent victim even if the victim volunteers. So my claim still stands, which is that the way some Catholics and many Protestants view the actions of the Father and the Son are severely distorted.

John 3:16 doesn’t say “For God’s justice was so perfect and so demanding that he gave his only son…”. It says “For God so loved the world that he gave his only son…”

 

[steve_b]

Because the concept of justice is such an issue.

What is at issue is not what God has done for us (obviously), but rather what I perceive as a very false, almost perverse, view of what and how and why it was done for us.

Let’s approach this another way

Nothing in all creation is made to the image and likeness of God except Human beings. Nothing in all creation is immortal except humans and angels. What happens when something in creation goes against the will of God?

• What happened to the angels
• what happened to the fig tree [Luke 13:7 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Luke Chapter 13)
• what happened to humanity from the 1st sin in the garden

justice is applied.

Because humans are created in the image and likeness of God, we automatically are treated on a different level from all creation. The fig tree didn’t get a savior. The fallen angels didn’t get a savior. As Augustine said, The son of God became the son of man so the sons and daughters of man could become sons and daughters of God. Everything is different for us. It’s also why our sins and rebellion against God is so severe, and the repair of our rebellious capabilities and actions, is so different for us. If one isn’t completely awed and consumed with gratitude and desire to change into this image and likeness with all it means, considering the magnificent efforts God put out for us for our salvation and redemption, (meant to change us into what we were intended to be, a child of God) then that child shows why they aren’t going to spend eternity with Him. Justice is applied

God is perfect. And Jesus said to us we are to be perfect as the Father is perfect. That’s what it ultimately means to be in the image and likeness of God. That’s what it means to be considered in his family. How in the world can that happen? Obviously if it is expected of us, so it must be achievable. Especially since nothing imperfect will enter heaven. What makes that perfection happen?
s:

I don’t think that the Eastern Churches, or Eastern Catholicism, hold such a view, so it is not the only possible view. Somebody can correct me if I’m wrong.

Eastern Catholics being in complete union with the pope believe what the Catholic Church teaches. Otherwise they wouldn’t be Catholic. The Orthodox aren’t Catholic.

 

[shocktrooper]

Whether he volunteered or not (and scripture makes it very clear that he came in obedience to the Father), it is not justice to accept the death of an innocent victim even if the victim volunteers. So my claim still stands, which is that the way some Catholics and many Protestants view the actions of the Father and the Son are severely distorted.

John 3:16 doesn’t say “For God’s justice was so perfect and so demanding that he gave his only son…”. It says “For God so loved the world that he gave his only son…”

Yes, he loves us which is why he provided a way for us to reconcile. Perfect justice is rendered each time a soul “stands” before him after death. And then at the end of time.

We don’t think Christ stood in our place (this part we do) and there is nothing for us to do. We believe in picking up our crosses and following Jesus. Those that fail to do this do not give God proper worship, and justice demands God receive what is rightfully due to him. This is justice on our part.