God's Mountain--Sermon, Transfiguration

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Seamus_Sully said:
I honestly mean this statement, I need you to forgive such fundamental questions. The questions are basic and I want to hear different ideas. I want to thank you in advance for you helpful ideas. The questions are grappling with the same basic fundamentals as mountain and God’s home.

Jesus is the Good Shepherd.

Jesus tell St. Peter to feed His sheep.

In the last chapter of St. John we have the apostles fishing. Then we read that St. Peter should feed Jesus’ sheep.

We immediately know that sheep are Christians or people.

What were the fish?

Are the fish the kind that swim in water?

Are the fish the kind that are being caught for Christ?

Also, in St. Matthew chapter 8: 28-34, there was a herd of swine.

Is the herd of swine like Jesus’ sheep, that is, are the swine people that do not believe in God? Sheep are people that believe in God. What are the swine? Are they the farm animals? Are they people that do not believe in God?

Again, I want to thank you for your kind help.
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There is a very good thread on the sheep titled ‘Psalm 23’
The shepherd kept the goats and the sheep together to graze but at night for rest he seperated them and from what I read from the wiki science goats and sheep do not breed together they are a different species. I thought this was super interesting and it has tried to be proven wrong but now with DNA they can tell that they don’t :ehh: Isn’t this interesting. Some say the goats are those who don’t really believe in Jesus or have a faith in the trinity, I’m just guessing.

The fish are a another story that I haven’t pondered yet but have thought about would be good for another thread.
Good luck in your pondering! God Bless! Dessert
 
The story of the fish comes from John’s Gospel. If you wish to think of the fish, look to Ezekiel 47, for he ties the theme of water flowing from the Temple to Jesus’ death. Briefly, the water in Ezekiel flows from the Temple bringing life to the world. Jesus, in the Gospel of John is the Temple (“Destroy this Temple, and I will raise it up on the third day”).

The water is the Holy Spirit, which flows from Jesus’ side when the lance is thrown into his side at the Cross. (“Whoever believes in me, as scripture says: ‘Rivers of living water will flow from within him.’" He said this in reference to the Spirit that those who came to believe in him were to receive. There was, of course, no Spirit yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.”)

Now, look at Ezekiel 47, which Jesus references when he says, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me…”. The Temple Liturgies that the Jews were celebrating included Ezekiel 47. This is the context of Jesus’ saying “If anyone thirst…”.

I think Ezekiel helps to show the fish best:
The Scripture comes from Ezekiel 47, which is read in the Jewish Liturgy for this feast. It starts off with Ezekiel being brought to the entrance of the Temple, where he saw “water flowing out from the threshold of the temple towards the east”. The water was issuing out from under the altar of the temple, the heart of the temple.
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Ezekiel leaves the altar and starts walking. As he walks, he measures the depth of the water. In verse 3, the water is ankle deep. In verse 4, it is knee deep, then it’s waist deep. In verse 5, it became a river that could only be crossed by swimming. In verse 8, he hears, "This water flows into the eastern district down upon the Arabah (Arabia), and empties into the sea, the salt waters, which it makes it fresh (it cleanses the Dead Sea).
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Where ever the river goes there’s life. And one of the key themes to John is “Life”. (9) Wherever the river flows, every sort of living creature that can multiply shall live, and there shall be abundant fish, for wherever this water comes the sea shall be made fresh. (10) Fishermen shall be standing along it from En-gedi to Eneglaim, spreading their nets there. Does this bring anything to mind? Jesus called the disciples (fishermen) to become “fishers of men”.
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It goes on to describe trees that bear fresh fruit every month, for they shall be watered by the flow from the sanctuary. What does the Old Testament mean when it describes trees bearing fruit? The fruit from trees are the good works of righeous men.
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I enjoyed this thread having considered this very thing before. Spiritual realities are communicated to us through their earthly counterpart. Heaven and earth were once joined as one. The pattern of heaven is reflected on earth and before the fall the mystery of God was perfectly apprehended by the mind of man.

In biblical language the words earth and flesh are interchangeable. In ancient times the great cultures of the world were like great mounds of earth reaching up towards God. The Sumerians the babylonians the greeks the egyptians these were all great mountains because they were the earth of our flesh reaching higher becoming ever larger in range. I’ve come to thing of God dwelling on the mountain of His Chosen people because it was this mountain that he decended too.

But recall the conversation Jesus had with the Samaritan woman at the well. She expected that the messiah would worship on the mountain of the Samarians. IN that story the same concept for mountain is used as the one I describe.

So God dwells on a mountain means to me that God dwell with a people who have grown upwards towards God.
 
the sea represents chaos, a place without order. In ancient times it was thought that God tamed the sea, or in other words brought order out of chaos. The Fathers saw the Church as land rising up from the sea. Humanity still in the sea were seen as fish, hence I will make you fishers of men and the faithfull were humanity that walked on the land. Christ like God in the OT brings order out of chaos or in metaphore the earth that rises out of the sea.
 
Seamus_Sully said:
The only Biblical answer that I can discern is: Jesus went up God’s Mountain for the Sermon on the Mount and the Transfiguration.

It is from the Psalms.

The Psalms that come to my mind are 43, 3; 3, 5; 15, 1; 24, 3; 36, 7; 48, 2 and Isaiah 56, 7.

It is a real mountain. It is where God dwells. It is a literal mountain.
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I would like to share these thoughts concerning a mountain and the transfiguration.

Jesus’ flesh or ‘humanity’ is the mountain God dwells on. The one you see the Holy Spirit rest and stay on was how God pointed Jesus out to John the Baptist. God dwells on a mountain.

When Jesus transfigured His clothes became whiteer than physically possible and His flesh changed as well. The apostles priviledged to see this vision of God were transported or better said elevated by this vision of God high up onto the mountain where God dwells. Like Moses on the mountain who’s face shined for a time afterwards the Apostles were elevated to the top of God’s mountain high eneogh to see Moses and Elijah. The mountain of God’s people where Moses and Elijah already were. Perhaps they saw the apostles ascending towards them from below as the vision of God lifted their souls.

Although Peter perceived Moses and Elijah visiting the earthly place where he was, the reality was that Peter had been elevated to a place where they dwelled. I think that’s why Jesus told him…you don’t know what you are saying when Peter wanted to make huts for them to stay in.

But in a certain way the mountain that both the apostles and Moses and Elijah were standing on, one spiritual the other earthly, at least in that moment in the light of Jesus’ Transfiguration, were one and the same mountain.

I’m hoping this may offer some food for thought as it concerns the spiritual meaning of a mountain.
 
Benadam

I enjoyed reading and thinking about your thoughts.

For further reading, who can I read?

Again, I really enjoyed reading your posts, thanks!!!
 
thistle said:
God is EVERYWHERE and not just on a mountain!!
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Yes God is in nature as the creator as such in a living tree, ie; but when that tree is made into furniture it is not really living anymore as it has been cured treated and made in to an object. So we can have respect for the person who shaped that furniture as the craftsperson who formed it with the talent and spent times laboring over it, but it isn’t alive anymore.

What are more thoughts on God and everywhere?

But do we come up to God on his mountain or do we call upon his name and he comes down to us?

The Holy Spirit guides us into all truth as He is directing our paths but don’t we have to be abiding in God and Him in us so there may be times God is not in us but near us?

So my question is is God always in us? Not when we sin right?
But he said he never leaves us but we error so we step away from Him.

I think IMHO that God is above us and we can see Jesus in others
when we are closer to Jesus we are closer to God, something maybe we didn’t get into on this thread.

I have been talking about mountain top experience on another thread so this is interesting as I didn’t want to derail that thread.

Dessert
 
Seamus_Sully said:
Concerning the context: the three areas are the Transfiguration, Sermon on the Mount and God’s Dwelling in the Psalms.

The Transfiguration is found in St. Matthew chapter 17, and St. Mark chapter 9.

Concerning the context of the Sermon on the Mount, it begins in the fifth chapter of St. Matthew’s Gospel.

Concerning God’s Dwellling in the Psalms, the primary text that I use is Psalm 43, 3.

Furthermore, I believe that the Mountain that is used is God’s Dwelling. I at this time do not know how to explain that. I believe it is joined to our hearts, that is, our hearts are now the Temple of the Holy Spirit. God dwells in our heart.

I am not a scholar. Therefore I do not know how to explain such loving mysteries. However, it is Biblically clear, God’s dwells on a mountain. Moreover, God now dwells in our hearts. We are now the Temples of the Holy Spirit. In addition, the saints are told to run to the mountains.

Concerning these points, there are many Biblical passages that are joined to these topics such as God’s love is poured into our hearts, God is my Cup and my Cup overflows. How to explain the connection, I do not know.

I am looking for further ideas.

HELP!!!

Again, I am not a scholar. I am an average student of the Most Holy Scripture, a serious student, a child of God.
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Ideas about holy mountains are common to the Bible and to many ancient cultures - Olympus is another, Mount Zaphon is another, & so on & so on. Ziqqurats are holy mountains in stone. The god Enlil is often called “Great Mountain” - he is for all practical purposes the supreme god of the Sumerian pantheon, & in view of the Babylonian background of the book of Daniel there may be a veiled allusion to him in Dan. 2​

In the OT, they have many functions:
  • God appears upon them (one suggestion for the meaning of the title “Shaddai” is “The Mountain One”)
  • they are places of the council of the gods/sons of El[ohim]
  • they are places of revelation
  • Lebanon was famous throughout the Near East for its cedars
  • Zion took over the associations of the place of the “assembly of the gods” from Canaanite myth - & “demythologised” them: Baal imagery is used for Israel’s God, & Baal’s divine servants are reduced in rank by being replaced by the human citizens of Jerusalem.
  • The “mountain of the Lord” in Isaiah 2 & Micah seems to be another version of the eschatological mountain of Isaiah 65
    When God appears, this happens:
  • Psa 114:5 What ails you, O sea, that you flee? O Jordan, that you turn back?
  • Psa 114:6 O mountains, that you skip like rams? O hills, like lambs?
  • Psa 114:7 Tremble, O earth, at the presence of the LORD, at the presence of the God of Jacob…
  • One of the temptations involves being set on a high mountain - probably the World-Mountain
  • Matthew presents Jesus as a new Moses, teaching on a mountain.
  • The Transfiguration owes something to the Feast of Tabernacles; & just as Moses’ face shone after he had spoken with God, Jesus is wholly transfigured, because He is greater even than Moses. Moses, Aaron, Hur, Nadab, & Abihu go up the mountain to speak with God - Jesus takes His three disciples up.
  • The saying about having faith to move a mountain into the sea may at one level imply that the OT “mountain of the Lord” is giving way to the faith inspired by accepting the preaching of Jesus about the Kingship of God
  • In Revelation there is a mountain burning with fire that falls into the sea.
    An altar with its steps is a small-scale mountain
Mount* in the Bible
 
Seamus, I don’t know of any sources in particular about the subject. reading some of Gottle’s and Dessert’s posts got me thinking about the culture of Life and the culture of death as two opposing mountains. I tend to attach the symbol of a mountain to flesh or humanity in some form. The Father’s saw the land that formed in Genesis as the waters are gathered into one place as the Church. A type of mountain Gottle brought up but didn’t list in particular is the tower of babel. Maybe?

Sorry it took so long to respond Seamus
 
NotWorthy said:
Guys, a lot of things happened on mountains. There’s certainly something being conveyed. What? I don’t really know.
** 1. The Garden of Eden - **Genesis 2:10
** 2. Noah’s Ark rests on Mt. Ararat after the Great Flood - **Genesis 8:4
** 3. The substitutionary atonement of the ram in place of the sacrifice of Abraham’s son Isaac on Mt. Moriah - **Genesis 22:2
** 4. Sinai Covenant on Mt. Sinai/Horeb - **Exodus 19:12
** 5. The site of Solomon’s Temple on Mt. Moriah - **2 Chronicles 3:1
** 6. Elijah’s defeat of the prophets of Baal on Mt. Carmel “carmel” is a Hebrew word for “garden”] - 1 Kings 18
** 7. Jesus and the giving of the New Covenant law on the Mt. of Beatitudes - Matthew 5
** 8. Jesus’ official appointment of Peter as Vicar of the Church on the mountain at Caesarea Philippi - **Matthew 16:13-19; Mark 827-30; Luke 9:18-21;
** 9. Jesus prevailed over temptation on a mountain - **Matthew 4:8-11; Luke 4:1-13
** 10. The Mt. of Transfiguration when Jesus appeared in His glory - **Matthew 17 [Peter refers to this place as “the holy mountain” in 2 Peter 1:16-18]
** 11. Jesus is arrested in a garden on the Mt. of Olives; Jesus ascends to the Father from the Mt. of Olives - **Matthew 26:47ff; Mark 14:43ff; Luke 22:47ff; John 18:3ff; Acts 1:1-19
** 12. Golgotha, where Jesus was crucified was a lower elevation of Mt. Moriah - **Matthew 27:32-36; Mark 15:21-27; Luke 23:26-34; John 19:17-24
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Could well be, but when we recall how much of the geography of Israel is mountainous, should we be surprised?
 
rwoehmke said:
Could well be, but when we recall how much of the geography of Israel is mountainous, should we be surprised?
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Well, Eden, Ararat, and Horeb are not in Israel. But still, you often see these people in the Bible stop what they are doing and climb a mountain when something really incredible is going to happen.

For instance, if you look at Jesus’ trek to Caesarea Phillippi just to assign Peter the title “Rock”, you realize that this mountain just wasn’t “on their way” to their next destination.

And Abraham had to travel for what, 3 days?, to sacrifice Isaac.
 
Benadam said:
Seamus, I don’t know of any sources in particular about the subject. reading some of Gottle’s and Dessert’s posts got me thinking about the culture of Life and the culture of death as two opposing mountains. I tend to attach the symbol of a mountain to flesh or humanity in some form. The Father’s saw the land that formed in Genesis as the waters are gathered into one place as the Church. A type of mountain Gottle brought up but didn’t list in particular is the tower of babel. Maybe?

Sorry it took so long to respond Seamus
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Well the tower of Babel was man made but no matter what mountain we go up to we will need to get down on our knees to pray on that ground.

dessert
 
dessert said:
Well the tower of Babel was man made but no matter what mountain we go up to we will need to get down on our knees to pray on that ground.

dessert
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I heard the other day a new take on the Tower of Babel. I understand they angered the Lord because they wished to make a name (Shem) for themselves. But the Tower was built shortly after the flood (“shortly” is a relevant term, of course).

But could the Babelist (?) have been trying to build a tower that could have survived another flood like the one in Noah’s time? Of course, God had promised no more floods, and building a tower for this reason would have angered God because they weren’t trusting His Word (all the more reason to punish them). But if the Babelist thought that they could survive another flood, due to the height of the tower, then they wouldn’t be afraid of God’s anger.
 
Another thought on man’s trying to worship on their own terms. All throughout Israel’s (the Northern Kingdom) history, they would place sacred poles on mountain tops as places of worship. Even Judah took part in this abomination occasionally. Of course, the Jews were supposed to worship Yahweh in Jerusalem at the Temple.

But my point is, the Jews were attracted to worship God (or their various gods) on mountaintops in imitation of the very real revelations of God’s Glory on various other mountains previously mentioned.
 
I think that people thought that heaven was a tangible place that they could get to like a mountain.

I think many were also escaping their enemies by fleeing to the mountains and I’ve seen the history channel where an entire city was on a mountain.

But the prophets came down such as Moses and did not build a city up there. So his mountain was you are right for revelation.

Dessert
 
dessert said:
Well the tower of Babel was man made but no matter what mountain we go up to we will need to get down on our knees to pray on that ground.

dessert
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Absolutely. Your thought made me think of the heights of contemplative prayer as a mountain. A prayer gift that manifests faults afterwards if one doesn’t fall to their knees in humility afterwards.
 
NotWorthy said:
Another thought on man’s trying to worship on their own terms. All throughout Israel’s (the Northern Kingdom) history, they would place sacred poles on mountain tops as places of worship. Even Judah took part in this abomination occasionally. Of course, the Jews were supposed to worship Yahweh in Jerusalem at the Temple.

But my point is, the Jews were attracted to worship God (or their various gods) on mountaintops in imitation of the very real revelations of God’s Glory on various other mountains previously mentioned.
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That brings to mind that even the evil spirits can bring a seemingly elevated state of awareness.
 
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