God's Not Pro-Life: PLEASE READ

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BluntJoey

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I believe that every Christian in the world deserves to know the truth. Please understand that I seek NEVER to mislead, only to inform. Hence, I provide both sides of the argument:

Pro-life
You formed my inmost being;
You knit me in my mother’s womb.
Psalms 139:13-16

“Yahweh called me when I was in the womb,
before my birth he had pronounced my name.”
Isaiah 49:1

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you.”
Jeremiah 1:5

“When men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no harm follows, the one who hurt her shall be fined, according as the woman’s husband shall lay upon; and he shall pay as the judges determine. If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth…“–Exodus 21:22-24 The problem here is that the man who injures a pregnant woman in the process, shall repay her according to the degree of injury inflicted on her, not the fetus.
These only work to affirm the fact that he is the OPPOSITE of Pro-Life in a most apathetic way, however, when you factor in these:

Abortion:
Code: 
Hosea 9:11-16 Hosea prays for God’s intervention.  “Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer.  Give them, 0 Lord: what wilt thou give?  Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. . .Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.”  Clearly Hosea desires that the people of Ephraim can no longer have children.  God of course obeys by making all their unborn children miscarry.  Is not terminating a pregnancy unnaturally “abortion”?

Numbers 5:11-21 The description of a bizarre, brutal and abusive ritual to be performed on a wife SUSPECTED of adultery.  This is considered to be an induced abortion to rid a woman of another man’s child.
Numbers 31:17 (Moses) “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.” In other words: women that might be pregnant, which clearly is abortion for the fetus.

Hosea 13:16 God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and the “their women with child shall be ripped up”. Once again this god kills the unborn, including their pregnant mothers.

2 Kings 15:16 God allows the pregnant women of Tappuah (aka Tiphsah) to be “ripped open”. And the Christians have the audacity to say god is pro-life. How and the hell is it that Christians can read passages where God allows pregnant women to be murdered, yet still claim abortion is wrong?

Infanticide:

1 Samuel 15:3 God commands the death of helpless “suckling” infants. This literally means that the children god killed were still nursing.

Psalms 135:8 & 136:10 Here god is praised for slaughtering little babies.

Psalms 137:9 Here god commands that infants should be “dashed upon the rocks”.
 
The murdering of children:

Leviticus 20:9 “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.”

Judges 11:30-40 Jephthah killed his young daughter (his only child) by burning her alive as a burnt sacrifice to the lord for he commanded it.

Psalms 137:8-9 Prayer/song of vengeance “0 daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.”

2 Kings 6:28-29 “And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.”

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 “If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”

Judges 19:24-29 “Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go. Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man’s house where her lord was, till it was light. And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold. And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ***, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place. And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.” To put it very bluntly this poor, young lady was murdered by her mate for being raped.

Exodus 12:29 God killed, intentionally, every first-born child of every family in Egypt, simply because he was upset at the Pharaoh. And god caused the Pharaoh’s actions in the first place. Since when is it appropriate to murder children for their ruler’s forced action?

Exodus 20:9-10 God commands death for cursing out ones parents Joshua 8 God commanded the deaths of 12,000 men, women, and children of Ai. They were all slain in the ambush that was planned by god.

2 Kings 2:23-24 The prophet Elisha, was being picked on by some young boys from the city because of his bald head. The prophet turned around and cursed them in the Lords name. Then, two female bears came out of the woods and killed forty-two of them. You would think that God could understand that sometimes the youthful make childish jokes. Calling someone “bald head” is far from being worthy of death.

Leviticus 26:30 “And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.”

1 Samuel 15:11-18 God repents of having made Saul king since Saul refused to carry out God’s commandments (i.e., Saul refused to murder all the innocent women and children.)

I Kings 16:34 Laying the foundation for a city using your firstborn child and using your youngest son to set up the gates.

Isaiah 13:15-18 If God can find you, he will “thrust you through,” smash your children “to pieces” before your eyes, and rape your wife.

Jeremiah 11:22-23 God will kill the young men in war and starve their children to death.

Jeremiah 19:7-9 God will make parents eat their own children, and friends eat each other.

Lamentations 2:20-22 God gets angry and mercilessly torments and kills everyone, young and old. He even causes women to eat their children.

Child abuse:

Matthew 19:29 If you really loved Jesus then he insists that you abandon your wife and children for him. Only that way will he allow you to go to heaven. (That is if you meet his other hefty requirements, don’t slip through the loopholes, and ignore the contradictions.)

Mark 7:9 Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law.

Romans 13: 1-7 - LAWS.
 
Is there more coming? These passages are taken out of context, with little accompanying theological analysis. There’s already a vast wealth of scholarship already published on the issue, ranging from scriptural analysis to natural law philosophy.
 
All you have really shown is that you know how to quote scripture out of context.
 
I think the original poster is missing one important point: God is in charge. If God takes a life, it is His to take in the first place as is all that exists in creation. It was His to give and if it serves His will, it is His to take back. How we deal with life is different. Life is not ours to give or take, we are only part of the process.

Regardless of what can be taken another way, I believe that God is a loving Father and therefore regards all life as important.
 
Deus Caritas Est, GOD IS LOVE!

If He chose to take the lives of innocent children, He is sparing them the heartaches and daily trials this life on earth gives and replacing them with eternal JOY WITH GOD IN HEAVEN!!!

Sounds about as PRO-LIFE as you can get!!!

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark
 
Wow. Just wow. You can’t take literal historical records out of context. You guys are using the age-old, fruitless cop-out that I’m taking it out of context. My arguments are as sound as ever and completely in context. It’s liek saying “The Door is Open” can be taken out of context. No! The story is written as documented and as you can see, I provided th epassages themselves right from the Bible! I very fairly provided the Christian arguments that absolutely do not surmount mine, not at all. Mine prove the apathy of God by all means necesarry. Do not mock my intelligence, please, just for posting the truth. It’s an inevitable conclusion that I have come to. Live with it, live with the reality of your religion my friends.
When people abort their babies you guys scorn them as evil, even though they’re sending the fetuses right back to God; yet when God aborts mass amount of fetuses throughout an entire civilization, then he himself is a huge heroe. I respect the poster above, however, who at least says God can do whatever he wants because he is God. At least he acknowledges that I have provided factual, not disrregardable evidence. I am an intelligent, knowledgeable person who deserves each and every one of your respect.
 
BluntJoey said:
Wow. Just wow. You can’t take literal historical records out of context. You guys are using the age-old, fruitless cop-out that I’m taking it out of context. My arguments are as sound as ever and completely in context. It’s liek saying “The Door is Open” can be taken out of context. No! The story is written as documented and as you can see, I provided th epassages themselves right from the Bible! I very fairly provided the Christian arguments that absolutely do not surmount mine, not at all. Mine prove the apathy of God by all means necesarry. Do not mock my intelligence, please, just for posting the truth. It’s an inevitable conclusion that I have come to. Live with it, live with the reality of your religion my friends.
When people abort their babies you guys scorn them as evil, even though they’re sending the fetuses right back to God; yet when God aborts mass amount of fetuses throughout an entire civilization, then he himself is a huge heroe. I respect the poster above, however, who at least says God can do whatever he wants because he is God. At least he acknowledges that I have provided factual, not disrregardable evidence. I am an intelligent, knowledgeable person who deserves each and every one of your respect.
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We do not scorn those who have abortions as evil. The act itself is evil but the person is not and needs our compassion. I have worked with post-abortive woman and trust me, many are a far cry from evil. They are human beings who were misguided by those in the abortion clinics who were supposedly trying to “help” them. They are women who were pressured by their parents, spouses, boyfriends, counselors. They are women who may not have been close to God at that time in their lives. These woman suffer more than you know. God our Father suffers right there with them.

Your argument is unfounded. The bottom line is ONLY GOD has the right to take a life. No man, woman, or child has the right to take life. So if in the case of Moses, He wills that innocents be slaughtered, HE has that right. Read the 10 Commandments. Read Jesus commandments. No where are we allowed to take a life.

I pray that the Holy Spirit opens your heart and mind to the truth.
 
Your mistake is that you are taking the passages liturally, which is not the teaching of the Catholic Church. For some reason you want to find fault in the teachng that all life is to be respected from natural conception to natural death. I’m can guess becuase you want to find some hyprocracy on the part of Catholic Christians.
I noticed that you joined this site three days ago, perhaps only to cause trouble.
If you want a real discussion on pro-life, I’m certain you can get one. But sense you want to start the augument without a real knowledge of history and particularly bibilcal history, you will be at a disadvantage.

Peace,
FAB
 
Please allow me to ask what religion you are? You seem to want to disagree with what the Catholic Church teaches, BluntJoey.

God Bless!
 
God is pro-life. We are also called to be pro-life; however, there are times in which even we must, regrettably, take life (i.e. combat, police work, self defense, etc.). This fact does not mean the professions of soldiering or police work are inherently pro-choice. God takes life when God knows it is necessary. Because His reasoning does not have to meet with human approval, we may or may not understand or agree with the death of an innocent person. God’s ways are not man’s ways.

Abortion is the greatest of sins. It is so because its aim, its focus, its sole goal is the death of an innocent human unborn baby—“the poorest of the poor”, in Mother Teresa’s words.

But also because it cheats God!

An unborn person, if left alone to be birthed, has the chance of someday willingly bending his/her knee in loving worship of their Creator, or turning away from their Creator. The person will either glorify God or reject Him.

If the life of this unborn person is aborted, then God is robbed of a possibly loyal and worshiping soul, which He created. God is cheated. His earthly choir of loving adorers is short that one aborted soul (times ???). This is evil!

What’s even worse is that we aid Satan in this evil. You see, Lucifer has his hands full. Getting all souls on earth to reject Christ is a huge undertaking. The only way the devil stands a chance is if fewer and fewer people come into the world in the first place.

Enter the abortionist! Abortion and all those who perform it, condone it, finance it, seek it out, or remain indifferent to it, are doing Satan’s work. They are giving the devil a much-needed helping hand. They are ensuring that Christ’s Church on earth consists of fewer and fewer beautiful souls willingly, lovingly, and reverently worshiping their God.

Abortion glorifies Satan NOT God.

Peace of Christ
 
BluntJoey **is **mistaken, but I think he deserves a legitimate response. I’m not saying that I can provide that, but I’ll do my best.

What you must understand about the Old Testament, which all but two of the references are from, is that it is an extremely complex work - even from only a secular perspective. First of all, it documents the moral development of a group of people over the course of about 1500 years and is written by at least 40 different authors or groups of authors. Now, from a spiritual perspective, these books are fully inspired by God, but they are written in the traditions and imperfect understandings of the Isrealite people themselves. By that I mean that God spoke to them in their own language - both their audible and moral ones. The Isrealites were gradually shown the will of God, not whacked over the head with it all at once.

Specificly, I hope I am not expected to answer for every one of these, that would far exceed my ability, but I can try one. I can understand BluntJoey’s objection to 1 Samuel 15, it **does **look like God has directly commanded the destruction of innocents. I saw this passage a few months ago and was taken aback. BluntJoey and others see this passage and use this logic: if p - God commands the destruction of innocents, and q - the destruction of innocents is immoral, then the conclusion is that God is immoral. This is certainly sound, if all statements are true. But people of faith know that God cannot command the destruction of innocents for the very reason that God is not immoral. Therefore, a new logic strand arises: If p - God cannot order the destruction of innocents, and q - the Isrealites slautered innocents, then the conclusion is that the Isrealites acted outside the will of God. So what gives with 1 Samuel 15?

Let me make it clear that BluntJoey is also mistaken that Saul was punished for not killing all the people, that’s not true. Saul was perfectly fine with killing everybody… it was the good cattle and things he could use that he kept around. Remember that the point of the story is to explain why the Kingdom was taken away from Saul, not that wars of extermination are acceptable. These wars of extermination were a common practice among rival semetic tribes at the time. 1 Samual 15 takes this event and applies a sort of post facto commentary on it. It is attributed to Samuel to add emphasis, but the war is not the point of the story. The point of the story is that disobidience to God is bad; Saul disobeyed and so was punished for it. The slaying of innocents is never is complience to the divine will, but that was not judged in this story because that had not yet been revealed to Isreal, they still understood war in the sence communicated to them by the society, and so the story is not concerned with it. What it is certainly **not **saying is that it can be God’s will to slay innocent children and infants, that is simply not in the nature of God.

“Yes” an atheist can say, “But if you don’t accept that God is moral, then the entire arguement is just so many pixles on my screen”. It’s true that faith is involved in the process, but my objective is not to prove God’s morality, only to show that faith in His morality is reasonable. When I see a passage that causes me to jump, I go and try to reconcile my understanding to it, I don’t just give up. I don’t have the time or the energy to read and answer the rest of the quotes, hopefully someone else can - someone with more intelligence than I.
 
I am an intelligent, knowledgeable person
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If so, you surely appreciate the value of prudence. God gave us minds so that we might use them, and as such, you should not fault us when we ask for your analysis which underlies your thesis.

Also, I would add to your pro-Life list this:

Proverbs 31:8.“Open your mouth in behalf of the dumb, and for the rights of the destitute.”

When adding this to the passages you mentioned (Psalm 139, for example), it seems clear that we should speak up for those in the womb, since they are clearly without voice.
 
You guys are speaking out of your bias, even the polite poster on the previous page who elaborated. You admitted the argument was sound but that it couldn’t be simply because God is not immoral. But the fact of the matter is that textually speaking, he IS. That’s what it comes down to. I’m not for or against Catholics, trust me, I’m not some hateful Protestant obviously. I am Pro-Truth, and it is self-evident in the DOZENS of quotes I posted above. You cannot simply discredit them with your religious rationalizations about the Old Testament.
I appreciate the polite poster but even you said you couldn’t possibly go over all of that. You read over the one about Sam alone. And even that, you have rationalized.
And in case you think the OT doesnt matter anymore so it can be disregarded, think again:

) “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.
  1. All of the vicious Old Testament laws will be binding forever. “It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17 NAB)
  2. Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17 NAB)
3b) “All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness…” (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)

3c) “Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.” (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)
  1. Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 “Whoever curses father or mother shall die” (Mark 7:10 NAB)
  2. Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)
  3. Jesus has a punishment even worse than his father concerning adultery: God said the act of adultery was punishable by death. Jesus says looking with lust is the same thing and you should gouge your eye out, better a part, than the whole. The punishment under Jesus is an eternity in Hell. (Matthew 5:27)
  4. Peter says that all slaves should “be subject to [their] masters with all fear,” to the bad and cruel as well as the “good and gentle.” This is merely an echo of the same slavery commands in the Old Testament. 1 Peter 2:18
  5. “Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,…" (John 1:17).
  6. “…the scripture cannot be broken.” --Jesus Christ, John 10:35
 
BluntJoey said:
because God is not immoral. But the fact of the matter is that textually speaking, he IS.
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Yes, you can read the text and come to that understanding of God. But Catholics don’t define God solely by what’s in Scripture (though I don’t think it’s consistent with the entire witness of Scripture). God is the author of Scripture and we need to rely on God when reading/interpreting it. Scripture does describe certain peoples’ experience of God, and their reflection on and understanding of those experience (all of course articulated according of the cultures of their times which may or may not be easily interpreted in ours).

Just recently the first reading at Mass was from Acts 10, the episode with Peter eating “unclean” food. Why? Because God made it so. What was unclean, is now (apparently) clean. So take that into account when interpreting all the statements about the law never changing or passing away, as well.

Our understanding of God is much bigger than what could be obtained only through a literalistic reading of Scripture.
 
Blunt Joey–
You accuse God of murder, infanticide, abortion and the like.

You fail to understand that SIN brought death into the world. See Genesis. See Romans chapter 5. You blame God for death, when He is the source of Life Who conquered death. Humans who murder, cannot restore life to the body once it is gone. God can.

God is Pro-Life. He is Life. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. He is the Resurrection. If anyone believes in Him, even though he die, he shall live forever. See the Gospel of John.
 
gardenswithkids said:
Blunt Joey–
You accuse God of murder, infanticide, abortion and the like.

You fail to understand that SIN brought death into the world. See Genesis. See Romans chapter 5. You blame God for death, when He is the source of Life Who conquered death. Humans who murder, cannot restore life to the body once it is gone. God can.

God is Pro-Life. He is Life. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. He is the Resurrection. If anyone believes in Him, even though he die, he shall live forever. See the Gospel of John.
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Your ignroance of my posts is unacceptable. The abortions, and the rest were GOD-INDUCED my friend, which is the point of all this. Read, check, and accept the scriptures. I have nothing to hide.

As for the person above you, come on, Catholics know better than to think God is the “author” of the Bible. You guys express greater intelligence than ridiculous Fundamentalists [such as that your church ACCEPTS evolution *finally]; moreover,would you like to read my essay on Paul/Moses, how they were both mass murders and how the latter was a SERIAL RAPIST? Do you really want to challenge your opinion without due process? If your God is loving, then you need to reconsider and appreciate the historical reality behind the Bible. It has been used to condone sexism, racism/slavery, homophobia [fornicating hypocrites, I may add], rape, intolerance and mass murder [Hitler was a ROMAN CATHOLIC who was never excommunicated, unlike Madonna].
Now I’ve met so many decent Catholics who in their hearts, for instance, aren’t really homophobic. Thank God Catholics do not degrade women liek Protestants [except the ridiculous fact that women can’t be priests; MARY MAGDALENE WAS THE FIRST PREACHER, which you all know very well :). And I’m only going to elaborate on the gay issue ONCE because those who don’t want to listen just won’t: **96 percent of Americans have pre-marital sex, according to the Orlando Sentinel, and yet in the SAME LINE in Corinthians that condemns Christianity, fornication too is condoned. I am gay, and I’m also a very compassionate individual who does his best to better the world and his family. I WOULD NEVER wish my any of my family harm, even the people who have mistreated and slandered me. And if God is loving, neither will he for loving “abstractly.”

Biological PROOF homosexuality is natural:
utexas.edu/courses/bio301d/Topics/Gay/Text.html

guardian.co.uk/science/2008/jun/16/neuroscience.psychology
 
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