God's of the New Age

[Montalban]

If the followers of Krishna have deviated from the right path so have the followers of Jesus, this should be kept in mind.

That’s completely illogical.

There’s no reason to suggest that IF the followers of one group had failed then the other group must have failed too!

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

That’s completely illogical.

There’s no reason to suggest that IF the followers of one group had failed then the other group must have failed too!

I was thinking the same thing.

 

[mwmroe]

Hi

The PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 having direct insight into religious matters from Revelation or receiving Word of GodAllahYHWH has explained that all Revealed Religions, be it Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam etc are/were truthful in origin till their followers deviated from the true guidance given by GodAllahYHWH and differences created in consequence.
/QUOTE]

For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and they will deceive many. Matthew 24:5

 

[mwmroe]

Hi

The PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 having direct insight into religious matters from Revelation or receiving Word of GodAllahYHWH has explained that all Revealed Religions, be it Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam etc are/were truthful in origin till their followers deviated from the true guidance given by GodAllahYHWH and differences created in consequence.

For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and they will deceive many. Matthew 24:5

If the followers of Krishna have deviated from the right path so have the followers of JesusYeshuaIssa, this should be kept in mind.

Not sure what your talking about here. It doesn’t make any sense.

There is no harm in studying books of other religions.

It ok for someone to study books of other religions as long as they are catechized strongly in their Christian Faith.

Blessing

 

[Montalban]

There is no harm in studying books of other religions.

Thanks

Please list the Christian books you’ve studied.

 

[Montalban]

I was thinking the same thing.

Yeah, it just doesn’t follow.

 

[KarenNC]

Yoga was formed as a ‘spiritual excersise’, to get your mind into a state open to demonic forces. It doesn’t matter if you call the aim ‘Hinduism’ or something else, the exercises will still take you there

No, yoga in a Hindu context is no more to “get your mind into a state open to demonic forces” than Christian prayer is to “get your mind into a state open to demonic forces”. Unless you are also of the opinion that it is the act of praying rather than the intent or to whom one is praying that matters? That you might be engaged in prayer in front of a statue of Mary in a church but despite your intent “really” be praying to Kali? Hindus also pray, you know, and look a whole lot like Christians when they do so—lighting incense or candles, folded hands, bowed heads, eyes shut, etc.

There is nothing magical about the exercises. If you don’t like them or feel incapable of distinguishing between exercise at the Y and worship in a temple, find something else to do. Seems fairly simple to me.

 

[KarenNC]

Do you know of any information through books or the Internet from a Christian perspective that could help me understand and possible help someone who is apparently addicted to Hindu gurus and New Age teachers? It seems to be and addictive cycle, living for the thrill of trying to understand and accept the variety of Hindu guru’s, paths, and New Age teachers. It appears to me and endless cycling through the same Hindu gurus, paths and New Age teachers, without ever adhering to anyone of them. There doesn’t seem to be any peace in their effort. Like the peace one finds in Christianity. A personal relationship with Jesus Christ doesn’t seem to be and option. I hope and pray that one day it will.

Blessings

If the person is continually searching for some mystical experience that they do not believe is possible within the confines of Christianity, you may want to introduce them to some of the Christian (and specifically Catholic) mystics (probably best to ask your priest or over on one of the other sections of the forum to get Church-approved mystics, as that seems important to you).

Often a person goes searching for something outside of their own religion because of the “grass is greener” phenomenon or because they want some experience that they believe they cannot find there because they have not seen it in their church or life growing up. They cannot imagine that there are possibly parts of (in this case, Christian) experience with which they are not familiar and may contain the experiences for which they are searching. I have to say that a lot of the folks that I see turning to New Age movements do so out of lack of knowledge of a way to find the type of experience they are seeking within their current religion rather than an actual fundamental disagreement with the tenets of the religion.

I would always encourage someone to stay with the religion of their culture and family if at all possible and to explore the variety of options out there in it beyond their current level of personal experience. The Christian faith has a very very wide continuum of practices, much more so than most folks realize.

 

[Montalban]

No, yoga in a Hindu context is no more to “get your mind into a state open to demonic forces” than Christian prayer is to “get your mind into a state open to demonic forces”. Unless you are also of the opinion that it is the act of praying rather than the intent or to whom one is praying that matters?

Praying to Hindu deities is praying to demons. That’s the stand-point I take. I understand that they would not think this is so.

In order to make yourself more prone to these forces certain exercises were developed, including yoga.

That you might be engaged in prayer in front of a statue of Mary in a church but despite your intent “really” be praying to Kali?

Orthodox aren’t big on statues.

There is nothing magical about the exercises. If you don’t like them or feel incapable of distinguishing between exercise at the Y and worship in a temple, find something else to do. Seems fairly simple to me.

Except for the ‘intent’ of their exercises, even by their own reckoning is to help them in their religious faith. It doesn’t matter too if it’s Karma yoga, Bhakti yoga or Jnana yoga.

 

[Bennie_P]

Do you know of any information through books or the Internet from a Christian perspective that could help me understand and possible help someone who is apparently addicted to Hindu gurus and New Age teachers? It seems to be and addictive cycle, living for the thrill of trying to understand and accept the variety of Hindu guru’s, paths, and New Age teachers. It appears to me and endless cycling through the same Hindu gurus, paths and New Age teachers, without ever adhering to anyone of them. There doesn’t seem to be any peace in their effort. Like the peace one finds in Christianity. A personal relationship with Jesus Christ doesn’t seem to be and option. I hope and pray that one day it will.

Blessings

You can start with The Cross and Veil, Clare McGrath Merkle the editor of The Cross and Veil website and was once involved in the New Age as a “healer” and advanced Kriya yoga practitioner. The site is the fruit of ten years of personal renewal and five years of efforts at evangelization.
crossveil.org/

The Cross and The Veil, a web resource created to aid Catholics in their efforts at discerning the various currents of thought and practice flowing from what has been termed the “New Age”. From yoga to Reiki, from TM to Healing Touch, Catholics are embracing “new” ideas that can be misleading and harmful both spiritually and emotionally.

It is the purpose of this site to assist you in taking up the challenging task of admonishment, evangelization and restoration for those friends, relatives and co-workers that may have stumbled into one of the many manifestations of this counterfeit spirituality.

New age
catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?id=6542&repos=1&subrepos=&searchid=101113

New Age Traps
catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?id=6667&repos=1&subrepos=&searchid=101113

Hope this helps for a start. I post more later.

The best way of letting people see the truth is to deepen one’s own faith so they see something you have that they might want and educate yourself so you will the have answers ready when asked.

 

[KarenNC]

Orthodox aren’t big on statues.

I stand corrected. Let’s rephrase…“When you pray using an icon of Mary…”

Except for the ‘intent’ of their exercises, even by their own reckoning is to help them in their religious faith. It doesn’t matter too if it’s Karma yoga, Bhakti yoga or Jnana yoga.

Yes, the intent is to help them in their religious faith when used by Hindus as part of a spiritual discipline. Not by the ladies at the Y who are doing them to gain flexibility and balance. They are a tool and no more. A tool may have many uses depending on the intent of user.

 

[mwmroe]

You can start with The Cross and Veil, Clare McGrath Merkle the editor of The Cross and Veil website and was once involved in the New Age as a “healer” and advanced Kriya yoga practitioner. The site is the fruit of ten years of personal renewal and five years of efforts at evangelization.
crossveil.org/

New age
catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?id=6542&repos=1&subrepos=&searchid=101113

New Age Traps
catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?id=6667&repos=1&subrepos=&searchid=101113

Hope this helps for a start. I post more later.

The best way of letting people see the truth is to deepen one’s own faith so they see something you have that they might want and educate yourself so you will the have answers ready when asked.

Thank you for the information. I have looked it all over and hopefully from this information I can find something to help me understand this problem. Mean while I will continue to deepen my faith and educate myself and possibly that may interest them in what I have then I can have the answer ready when asked.

Blessings

 

[Montalban]

I stand corrected. Let’s rephrase…“When you pray using an icon of Mary…”

For one thing, we don’t think that the icon is Mary. Some pagans worship their statues etc as if they are the god, or contain the god.

Yes, the intent is to help them in their religious faith when used by Hindus as part of a spiritual discipline. Not by the ladies at the Y who are doing them to gain flexibility and balance. They are a tool and no more. A tool may have many uses depending on the intent of user.

But that’s the thing - it was a tool for getting one’s mind in a certain state. Whether you believe in demons or not, does not, as far as I’m concerned negate either them or their efforts.

 

[KarenNC]

For one thing, we don’t think that the icon is Mary. Some pagans worship their statues etc as if they are the god, or contain the god.

No more do the majority of pagans, either of the continuous tradition or the Neo- variety, think that the piece of wood on the altar is the entirety of their Deity (I suppose there might be some who do, I haven’t met any). A representation, certainly. A means of focus for communication, yes. It is always a bit risky to attempt to interpret the intent or belief of a person based on actions observed without a full understanding of the frame of reference of the culture or religion. As any Catholic who has argued with a Baptist over whether or not the Catholic worships statues can tell you, appearances can be wildly misinterpreted.

It is not anything unknown, in either Christian or pagan circles, on the other hand, for a person to believe or perceive that the God may indeed choose to manifest some portion of His or Her being in a statue or other physical object for a time. Statues appear to move, cry, etc. In Catholicism, such manifestations are called miracles or apparitions and have a very venerable tradition. That does not mean that Catholics believe that a carved piece of wood is their God.

This is not merely a modern understanding. Celsus responded to exactly this charge when he wrote, “Who but an utter infant imagines that these things are gods and not votive offerings and images of Gods?” (Celsus, 170 AD, “True Doctrine,” Cels. 7.62; cited in “The Christians as the Romans Saw Them,” Robert Wilken, pg. 119, Yale Univ Press, 1984.)

But that’s the thing - it was a tool for getting one’s mind in a certain state. Whether you believe in demons or not, does not, as far as I’m concerned negate either them or their efforts.

That state is not unique to Hinduism. It is no different than using a rosary to put oneself in a certain state of receptiveness (and prayer beads are used in a variety of religions as well).

Unless you are willing to say that when you pray to Jesus, you may well be instead unknowingly really praying to Zeus or Quetzacoatal or Amaterasu or Vishnu instead, I don’t really see that you have an argument. Whether you believe in Them or not does not negate Them, and prayer was certainly an element of Their worship which puts one in a certain state of mind…

 

[Bennie_P]

That state is not unique to Hinduism. It is no different than using a rosary to put oneself in a certain state of receptiveness (and prayer beads are used in a variety of religions as well).

Unless you are willing to say that when you pray to Jesus, you may well be instead unknowingly really praying to Zeus or Quetzacoatal or Amaterasu or Vishnu instead, I don’t really see that you have an argument. Whether you believe in Them or not does not negate Them, and prayer was certainly an element of Their worship which puts one in a certain state of mind…

Here you are in error for in yoga it is not just a tool for excercise inorder to get in to the state of receptiveness with you yoga is accepting the idea that -quote -breath is the source of life - end quote**.** This a different concept then the source of all life is God Himself. So it is by deceit (non-intentional by you I hope) to say it is no different then praying the rosery, or any other Chrsitian prayer. also the focus of yoga is ones own body not God. The use of the technics of Yoga are not the same no matter what your basic belief’s are, and to accept there is no difference is to accept the Hindu concept all spititual practices are the same, or at the very lest indifferent and benign. As a non-believer in Chrsit you have convenience to have the view that all spiritual practices/excercise have the same goal or affect, but we that follow Christ do not have this same “freedom” to yoke ourselves to strange gods and/or practices.

**

abc-of-yoga.com/beginnersguide/whatisyoga.asp

**

Breathing techniques were developed based on the concept that breath is the source of life. In Yoga, students gain breathing control as they slowly increase their breathing. By focusing on their breathing, they prepare their minds for the next step - Meditation
There is a general misconception that in Meditation, your mind has to go blank. It doesn’t have to be so. In Meditation, students bring the activities of the mind into focus resulting in a ‘quiet’ mind. By designing physical poses and Breathing Techniques that develop awareness of our body,

Gen 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

 

[KarenNC]

Here you are in error for in yoga it is not just a tool for excercise inorder to get in to the state of receptiveness with you yoga is accepting the idea that -quote -breath is the source of life - end quote**.**

I’ll be interested in seeing how you get along with the life-while- not-breathing view.

This a different concept then the source of all life is God Himself.

And the vehicle which God chose to employ to inject that life into everything was…wait for it…breath!

Gen 1:30
Gen 2:7
Gen 6:17
Gen 7:15
Gen 7:22
Job 27:3
Job 33:4
Isaiah 42:5
Jeremiah 38:16
Ezekiel 37:5, 6, 10
Acts 17:25
Revelation 11:11

marketplace.nd.edu/step/product1.cfm?SID=22&Product_ID=103
… Ever we breathe in air, warm and color that air, and we breathe out. We receive our life from God in the morning, warm and color our world, and breathe forth our spirit in the evening of our life on earth.

writespirit.net/religious_traditions/hinduism/the_upanishads/section_1/the_beauty_and_duty_of_indias_soul

"The Upanishads and the essence of prana are inseparable. Prana is a Sanskrit word. It can be translated into English in various ways. It may be called breath or energy, or even ether. But prana is life-energy. This life-energy is not material, it is not physical, but it is something that maintains and sustains the physical body. The Source of prana is the Supreme. In the field of manifestation prana is indispensable. Prana is the soul of the universe.

In India the term prana has a special significance of its own. Prana is not just breath. Daily we breathe in and out thousands of times without paying any attention. But when we use the term prana, we think of the life-energy that is flowing within and without in our breath."

Not such different concepts. The problem comes in translating prana as merely the physical action of air entering and leaving one’s lungs and then saying “look, Hindus think the act of breathing is all there is”. Words have a variety of meanings and that can make a vast difference in intent, especially when translating from one language to another without a very good knowledge of the context for the original speaker.

Look beyond surface appearances.

So it is by deceit (non-intentional by you I hope) to say it is no different then praying the rosery, or any other Chrsitian prayer. also the focus of yoga is ones own body not God.

When used for exercise, that is very true. Might that be because the person is exercising and not praying?

I am not saying that going to a yoga class at the Y is the same as praying the rosary. I am saying that if you are able to distinguish the reason for your actions based on your intent, then I do not understand why you seem to believe that no one else is able to do so and is therefore in some way unkonwingly intending to pray to Vishnu while at the Y without meaning to do so.

The use of the technics of Yoga are not the same no matter what your basic belief’s are,

I’m not clear on what you mean by that.

and to accept there is no difference is to accept the Hindu concept all spititual practices are the same, or at the very lest indifferent and benign. As a non-believer in Chrsit you have convenience to have the view that all spiritual practices/excercise have the same goal or affect, but we that follow Christ do not have this same “freedom” to yoke ourselves to strange gods and/or practices.

Nope. I most emphatically do not believe that “all spiritual practices are the same”. I also do not believe that all actions are the same or even all religious in nature or have the " same effect or goal" regardless of intent or use, which is what you are claiming.

Do you believe that everyone who drank a cup of coffee this morning was participating in a valid Eucharist? They drank a liquid, from a cup. That is what Catholics do when they celebrate Eucharist, so obviously all instances of drinking liquids from cups must really be Catholic worship services. Or is it only when they drink red wine with dinner?

Catholics don’t even believe that other Christians who are actually intending worship of Jesus Christ by drinking wine from a cup in the context of a worship service are involved in a true Christian religious ritual. How in the world do you then get that someone taking yoga at the Y while listening to jazz is really worshipping a Hindu god?

There are people who use yoga as a form of worship to Hindu Gods. There are people who use yoga as a form of exercise. There are even those who use yoga as a way to calm and center their awareness on the gift of life from the Christian God. There are people who drink wine as part of Eucharist. There are people who drink wine with dinner. Different goals, different effects.

 

[Montalban]

No more do the majority of pagans, either of the continuous tradition or the Neo- variety,

To me it matters not whether they’re praying to a false god before them or a representation of a false god who’s somewhere else. I don’t understand your point.

That state is not unique to Hinduism.

It’s still not a point, as far as I’m concerned. I don’t have any problem with people putting themselves in a state to receive God, but I object to those who use means that were devised for false gods.

It is no different than using a rosary to put oneself in a certain state of receptiveness (and prayer beads are used in a variety of religions as well).

I don’t use a rosary. I’m Orthodox.

Unless you are willing to say that when you pray to Jesus, you may well be instead unknowingly really praying to Zeus or Quetzacoatal or Amaterasu or Vishnu instead, I don’t really see that you have an argument. Whether you believe in Them or not does not negate Them, and prayer was certainly an element of Their worship which puts one in a certain state of mind…

I do believe they exist; as demons. That’s the whole point of my objecting here to Christians operating non-Christian spiritual devices.

 

[KarenNC]

It’s still not a point, as far as I’m concerned. I don’t have any problem with people putting themselves in a state to receive God, but I object to those who use means that were devised for false gods.

Then I strongly suggest that you immediately cease any of the following means in which you may be mistakenly engaging: praying, kneeling, using imagery or physical tools of any sort (either two or three dimensional) as a focus of devotion, lighting candles, burning incense, singing, sharing a communal sacred meal (ie Eucharist), setting aside special vessels or items to use in worship, setting aside a special place to worship, gathering with others to worship publicly, reading or learning sacred writings, fasting, abstaining from sexual relations for religious reasons, use of holy water to purify, creating sacred art, making monetary gifts to a religious institution in hopes of receiving blessings or as thanks for a blessing received, placing sacred art or items in your home, seeking a blessing on a physical object or ritual cleansing of it, adopting a special posture such as prostration or using special words to pray particularly if those words are not in your usual language, observe special days during the year as being sacred, etc.

All these (and more) have been “devised for false gods” at one point or another before they were used in Christianity as well as after. There is nothing unique about the tools used by pretty much any faith because they are all human artifacts. It is the intent which differs.

I don’t use a rosary. I’m Orthodox.

Are you saying that you personally don’t use a rosary or other form of aid to counting prayers or are we again getting into arguing over the specific terms used rather than the actual action performed? orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/pr_prayer.aspx and orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/prayrule.aspx both provide instructions on ways in which Orthodox Christians should use prayer ropes with knots or beads as an aid to prayer.

 

[Montalban]

Then I strongly suggest that you immediately cease any of the following means in which you may be mistakenly engaging: praying, kneeling, using imagery or physical tools of any sort (either two or three dimensional) as a focus of devotion, lighting candles, burning incense, singing, sharing a communal sacred meal (ie Eucharist), setting aside special vessels or items to use in worship, setting aside a special place to worship, gathering with others to worship publicly, reading or learning sacred writings, fasting, abstaining from sexual relations for religious reasons, use of holy water to purify, creating sacred art, making monetary gifts to a religious institution in hopes of receiving blessings or as thanks for a blessing received, placing sacred art or items in your home, seeking a blessing on a physical object or ritual cleansing of it, adopting a special posture such as prostration or using special words to pray particularly if those words are not in your usual language, observe special days during the year as being sacred, etc.

All these (and more) have been “devised for false gods” at one point or another before they were used in Christianity as well as after. There is nothing unique about the tools used by pretty much any faith because they are all human artifacts. It is the intent which differs.

Show that this is so. Show that Adam never knelt in prayer, or bowed to God. I know that St. Michael, the Archangel knelt before God before man had even come into being.

Jesus is ‘the image of God’. Jesus is known as a living icon; Jesus existed before man. etc.

Alternatively, and this would be for me a more powerful argument; show me where Jesus instructed us to use yoga

Are you saying that you personally don’t use a rosary or other form of aid to counting prayers or are we again getting into arguing over the specific terms used rather than the actual action performed? orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/pr_prayer.aspx and orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/prayrule.aspx both provide instructions on ways in which Orthodox Christians should use prayer ropes with knots or beads as an aid to prayer.

The word ‘rosary’ doesn’t appear in either page. The rosary is a specificlly Catholic device. I have said “I don’t use the rosary”, so for you, this means you must prove that I use something else that isn’t the rosary?

 

[KarenNC]

Show that this is so. Show that Adam never knelt in prayer, or bowed to God. I know that St. Michael, the Archangel knelt before God before man had even come into being.

Jesus is ‘the image of God’. Jesus is known as a living icon; Jesus existed before man. etc.

Alternatively, and this would be for me a more powerful argument; show me where Jesus instructed us to use yoga

I am speaking of history in terms of what is known of human history, not the theological timeline of any given religion. Many religions claims as part of their theology that they go back to or before the beginning of time. Christianity as a visible religion did not exist before the birth of Christ. Prior to that we have Judaism.

The word ‘rosary’ doesn’t appear in either page. The rosary is a specificlly Catholic device. I have said “I don’t use the rosary”, so for you, this means you must prove that I use something else that isn’t the rosary?

Okay, the point was that the methods are essentially the same regardless of what you call them, but the intents are different. Just because one group uses beads on a string to help count prayers doesn’t mean that it can’t be used by another group as well. Here’s an Orthodox thing that uses the term. westernorthodox.com/rosary.