God's omniscience and JW ideology

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b_justb

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Opening a new thread so as to not off topic a different one.

This post was made in another thread, edited by me for clarity:
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BibleSteve:
No, JW’s clearly understand YHWH is omnipotent and HE could certainly force humans to do anything he wanted… however he did create us with free will… he has allowed a temporary detour, and will ultimately accomplish his original purpose for humans living on a paradise earth…
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b_justb:
According to the JW’s, God is not omnipotent
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Once again, disinformation being spread about JWs…
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It is my supposition, being a JW for better than 15 years and hearing, learning, and regurgitating JW doctrine, that the JW’s do not believe that God is omniscient. Let us consider the standard JW line:
What would have happened if Adam and Eve wouldn’t have sinned?
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When they speak about their ideology of the end of days scenario. This scenario in brief is that when This System of Things™ is destroyed God will produce an Earth that will in every way resemble the Garden of Eden. The people that are not called to heaven will live in this Paradise Earth forever. There will be a resurrection of the dead and the resurrected will be in that Paradise earth condition also. Mind you this is very brief and incomplete.

JW’s theorize that if Adam and Eve had not sinned we’d be there already. My contention with this idea is that behind this is the reality that JW’s do not think that God is omniscient.

Christian ideology says that even though God knew that Man would sin, He created us anyway. Jesus is not some sort of Plan B that God the Father came up with after Adam sinned. It is the evidence of God’s great love and compassion for His creation that although He knew what would happen, that He would have to send His Son for our redemption, He created us anyway.

The discussion floor is now open for any and all. Thank you.
 
b_justb said:
Christian ideology says that even though God knew that Man would sin, He created us anyway. Jesus is not some sort of Plan B that God the Father came up with after Adam sinned. It is the evidence of God’s great love and compassion for His creation that although He knew what would happen, that He would have to send His Son for our redemption, He created us anyway.
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If its really about love & compassion, why not send Jesus right after Adam & Eve sinned? And save the rest of us a lot of trouble.

Sounds like it is a plan b afterall. 😃
 
I am most curious why they think Jesus was created at all.

He is not listed in the creation account as being something God made.

So, God could not have created Him to begin with.
 
About God being omniscient, the JWs I knew
did not believe that Jehovah was Omniscient.

Heck, when I was studying to become a JW,
the elder who was studying with me told me
flat-out that Jehovah “had no way of knowing” in
advance that Adam and Eve were going to sin.

Now, this elder was in his sixties at the time,
which means he would have been a 20 year old Witness
during the latter years of the presidential reign
of Judge J.F. Rutherford. Rutherford in his WTS books,
wrote that Jehovah God lived on the star called Alcyon
in the Pleiades constellation. “Food at the proper time.”

Now, if you believe that Jehovah dwells on a star
somewhere in the Universe, then you cannot believe
logically that he is omniscient nor omnipresent.
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
 
This thread is another example of incorrect information about what JW’s believe…

Read in our own literature:

From the May 15, 1986 WT page 4:

“WHY can the Author of the Bible, Jehovah God, accurately predict the future while man cannot? For two reasons. Jehovah is omnipotent. He is also omniscient. Man is not.”

From the Mar 15, 1988 WT page 11:

“He is also the Omniscient One. Not only does he know the end from the beginning, the future being an open book to him, but in him also resides all knowledge and wisdom, as seen by his wonderful works of creation.”

I think this underscores that ex-JW’s are not always a good source of **accurate **information about what JW’s really believe.
 
Well, Steve, if you saw my post,
I said that the Jehovah’s Witnesses I KNEW
did NOT believe that Jehovah was omniscient,
and I was taught BY THEM that he did NOT KNOW
in advance that Adam and Eve were going to fall into sin,
and that he “had no way of knowing” that.

That is my experience.
Of course, I left long before 1986,
so it is possible that new light flashed up for the governing body in Brooklyn revealing to them that God is, indeed, omniscient.
And Rutherford definitely taught that God dwelt on a star
in the Pleiades. If your Kingdom Hall library has any of Rutherford’s books, (mine DID), you might want to flip through them and you’ll see that he taught that for yourself.

Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
 
Of course, I left long before 1986,
so it is possible that new light flashed up for the governing body in Brooklyn revealing to them that God is, indeed, omniscient.
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This is nothing new… JW’s have believed that YHWH is omniscient and omnipotent for a long, long time…

June 1, 1959

“The resurrection is one of the Creator’s most stupendous miracles. However, it should not stagger our faith, for God is both omniscient and omnipotent.”

Feb 15, 1963

“In commanding us to walk with him Jehovah has our highest and best interests at heart. When we are walking with God we are certain to be going in the right direction, for God is omniscient, all-knowing, and he never makes a mistake”

April 1, 1965

“Being omniscient and omnipotent, Jehovah God has no difficulty at all in making such an examination. “All things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of him.””

Sept 15, 1970

“And on the other hand, since the Creator not only has all authority, but is also omniscient, all-wise, as well as loving, and so knows what is best for mankind, to violate his laws not only is wrong and bad, but is bound to bring harm, eventually if not immediately.”

Aug 1, 1975

“But can we be sure that God will cause these conditions to come about? Yes, because, as his Word assures us, God “cannot lie.” (Titus 1:2) Moreover, it also states that God’s purposes will meet with sure success. As his works of creation testify, is he not omniscient, all-wise, as well as omnipotent, all-powerful?”

May 15, 1984

“Jehovah is the omniscient Judge”

1984 Song Book – Song #64

“1. How happy is the man that seeks
God’s Word to comprehend;
For God, the great Omniscient One,
Knows from the start the end.
Thus, for our comfort and strong hope,
By faithful men of old
He made prophetic dramas grand;
Their meanings now unfold.”
 
Since 1959 is a “long long time”?

Um, my husband is older than this theology. :rolleyes:
 
Hellisreal said:
Since 1959 is a “long long time”?

Um, my husband is older than this theology. :rolleyes:
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1905 Watchtower page 3634:

“Had [Adam] been omniscient, like his Creator, able to comprehend the end from the beginning, undoubtedly he would not have transgressed.”

So, I’ve clearly documented that from at least 1905 through the present, JW’s have consistently believed that YHWH is omniscient and omnipotent in print… over and over again.

For someone to say contrary just shows they were incorrect.
 
BibleSteve said:
1905 Watchtower page 3634:

“Had [Adam] been omniscient, like his Creator, able to comprehend the end from the beginning, undoubtedly he would not have transgressed.”
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Thank you Bible Steve,

What is the earliest dated watchtower by the way?
 
Continuing…

1881 - Food for Thinking Christians, page 47:

“…This has its good features. It shows, and properly, God’s Omniscience…”
 
Hellisreal said:
Thank you Bible Steve,

What is the earliest dated watchtower by the way?
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The first issue of the WT was in July 1879 and as early as 2 years later in 1881, I can find written commentary about YHWH being omniscient…

So, this is not exactly an idea that’s new or hasn’t been around since the beginning.
 
Well, the Witnesses taught me what they taught me.
And they taught me that Jehovah had no way of knowing that
Adam and Eve were going to fall into sin.

I wonder, then, if most rank and file JWs even fully
understand what “omniscient” means.

And how can they have really believed he is omniscient,
when until 1953 they taught that he lived on the
star Alcyon in the Pleiades constellation ??
 
Of course, don’t feel bad,
cuz the Mormons I think STILL
believe that God lives on
the Planet “KOLOB.”
 
Having been thoroughly proved wrong about what JW’s really believe, are you now trying to change the subject of this thread?
 
You triumphalistic little bumpkin, you.
You only proved that the Society’s literature has called
God, omniscient. You have not proved that I was taught what I was taught by the JWs.

I was taught that God knows everything in the sense that he
knows the day and the hour of Armageddon and that he has a contingency plan for every human eventuality. I was never taught that he knows all things even before they happen. I am surprised by those quotes, to be perfectly frank.

Why don’t YOU ever deal with all the direct quotes from Watchtower literature wherein your “prophets in a sense”
announced the exact year the world would end in Armageddon
in Gods name and then it didn’t happen? (Hint, 1878, 1881, 1914, 1915, 1918, 1919, 1920 (to be preceded in 1920, in the Fall, by “worldwide, all-embracing anarchy in the fall of 1920” which didn’t happen either), 1925, the 1940’s, etc??
I was unaware of those quotes you quoted. You have been made aware of all these quotes/false prophecies many times.

Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
 
…You only proved that the Society’s literature has called
God, omniscient. You have not proved that I was taught what I was taught by the JWs… I am surprised by those quotes, to be perfectly frank.
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.

Yes, the WTS has consitently taught the YHWH is omnipotent and omnipresent… from at least 1881, infact.

It’s not a big deal, you simply didn’t understand what the JW position was. You thought you did and you made a big deal about it and you were corrected.

Now, don’t try to blame others for your misunderstanding.

Every point in every WT magazine and book is carefully indexed.

The WTS consistently encourages all members to use that Index.
 
Jaypeeto4 said:
Well, the Witnesses taught me what they taught me.
And they taught me that Jehovah had no way of knowing that
Adam and Eve were going to fall into sin.

I wonder, then, if most rank and file JWs even fully
understand what “omniscient” means.

And how can they have really believed he is omniscient,
when until 1953 they taught that he lived on the
**star Alcyon in the Pleiades constellation **??
Click to expand...
How would this come from bible interpretation?
 
In 1846, a European Astronomer named Maedler noted certain evidence that the center of the Universe was located near the constellation of Taurus, near the Plaiedes.

This was noted in the college text books at Yale in the 1856’s.

Here’s a glimpse of a scientific text book in 1852 noting this:

tinyurl.com/yw6p4t

The topic was debated amongst astronomers and scientists well into the 20th century.

In 1928, many astronomers still believed Plaiedes to be the center of the Universe, while others didn’t even believe in the Big Bang. Steven Hawkings has made fun of Albert Einstein because he didn’t believe in Quantum Mechanics.

In the context of the scientific understandings of 1928, Rutherford wrote a book called Reconciliation. In this 340 page Bible commentary, in a couple paragraphs he noted what the science of the day was saying (Plaiedes may be center of Universe) and said “It has been suggested that one of the stars of the group is… the place to which the inspired writer referred to at 2 Chronicles 6:21.” Rutherford apparently felt that if scientists said the brightest star in Plaides was the center of the Universe, perhaps that’s where YHWH’s figurative throne would be.

This speculative point was specifically dismissed in a 1953 WT commentary.

JW critics want you to think this was some big doctrinal point, when in fact, it was not… they really want to beat up on Rutherford, but are oblivious to the state of scientific and astronomical thought in 1928.

Most people who quote this have done NO research on the topic and must mindlessly copy and paste around the Internet in an attempt to discredit JW’s.

Did the poster who brought this up ever give consideration to status of scientific thought in the late 1920’s?
 
Bible Steve,

I am correct to understand this as only being taught as speculation, and not doctrine then?

Thank you
 
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