Gods or saints?

[domestichippie]

Before I was a Christian I was a take and given my interests and cultural background I attended to pull my patrons from the Celtic pantheon of gods. Mike patron goddess was Brighid. In my study of her I also learned that there was a St. Bridget of Kildare. Bridget the goddess was often recognized among pagans in the celebration of imbolc also known as Candlemas. Apparently St. Bridget also shares the same day as this feast day.

After becoming a Christian it took me sometime to make peace with whether or not it was okay for me to celebrate things like Christmas Easter and Halloween which had a lot of pagan roots and their traditions and practices . I determined it was okay because one cannot accidentally worship something. Intention is what matters and my intention was to worship Christ and form traditions that would bring us closer together as a family.

However decorating a tree while remembering the glorious birth of our Savior seems very different from praying to a person that may simply be a christianized way of worshiping old gods. Are cases like this merely quince events? In St. Bridget’s part of the world that would’ve been a pretty common name for girls partially based on the legends of the goddess Brighid and the tuatha-de-Danaan.

Insights? Clarification? They don’t necessarily have to revolve around Bridget if you have other examples.

 

[Verbum]

Hi Domestic,

Our model is the Word Incarnate. Just as the 2nd person of the Trinity assumed our human nature so as to “divinize” it, so Christianity assumes human events and customs to Christianize them. Feel no scruple about celebrating Christmas and other holidays that may have pagan origins. They have been “baptized”.

Verbum

 

[TheAtheist]

Before I was a Christian I was a take and given my interests and cultural background I attended to pull my patrons from the Celtic pantheon of gods. Mike patron goddess was Brighid. In my study of her I also learned that there was a St. Bridget of Kildare. Bridget the goddess was often recognized among pagans in the celebration of imbolc also known as Candlemas. Apparently St. Bridget also shares the same day as this feast day.

After becoming a Christian it took me sometime to make peace with whether or not it was okay for me to celebrate things like Christmas Easter and Halloween which had a lot of pagan roots and their traditions and practices . I determined it was okay because one cannot accidentally worship something. Intention is what matters and my intention was to worship Christ and form traditions that would bring us closer together as a family.

However decorating a tree while remembering the glorious birth of our Savior seems very different from praying to a person that may simply be a christianized way of worshiping old gods. Are cases like this merely quince events? In St. Bridget’s part of the world that would’ve been a pretty common name for girls partially based on the legends of the goddess Brighid and the tuatha-de-Danaan.

Insights? Clarification? They don’t necessarily have to revolve around Bridget if you have other examples.

Part of this goes back to a very old debate within the your Early Church about what the relationship between the prevading culture and your religion should be.

You can find a variety of different trends - from Tertullian’s rather stand-offish statement about “What is Athens to Jerusalem?” to some rather interesting remarks by your Pre/Post-Nicene writers regarding the status of Greek thought and the teachings of your Church.

One of the tactics adopted by your spiritual forefathers was, as Verbum stated, attempts to “christianize” non-Christian celebrations and practices to make them acceptable to your theology. Or in a less charitable sense, the pagan revival movement would essentially state your Church stole them.

It seem to be the case, especially in terms of saints, that the prevading strategy was to simply replace a local deity known to carry a specific “portfolio” (i’m the God of Grain harvests) with a Christian analogue.

On certain occasions, sometimes the God or Goddess in question became “mortal” (the story got switched around) which lead to the “mortal’s” canonization as a saint. There have been efforts both in the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches to verify the existence of certain the saints you venerate, which leads to the occasional exposure of a possible pre-Christian deity (and subsequent jettisoning of the “saint”)

 

[R_C]

The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”

This is a Christian perspective that is evident to the majority of our brothers in Christ, not just to those reunited in the Catholic Church: it is utterly pointless to compare Christianity with any pagan religion. Even the psalmist - perhaps in prophesy - realized so when he said:

Among the gods there is none like you, O Lord; no deeds can compare with yours. …] For you are great and do marvelous deeds; you alone are God.

Did the psalmist mean that there are other gods? Surely not! But others were comparing the Almighty to their pagan deities, finding concordances between festivities, noticing similarities between names, etc. The psalmist thus gives glory to the Lord by his testimony: He alone is God.

It is truly God’s grace when Christians from ancient times were able to find, amidst pagan shadows and images, the longing of the people for the true and only God. Some ancient traditions were not undone, rather, light was cast over them to cast away the darkness and the false deities and to place the Lord as the receiver of all adoration, praise, and glory.

Even in the Acts we find the people comparing two saints to two pagan divinities:

When the crowds saw what Paul had done they shouted in the language of Lycaonia, ‘The gods have come down to us in human form.’ They addressed Barnabas as Zeus, and since Paul was the principal speaker they called him Hermes.

Clearly the tribute they were giving to the pagan divinities were wrong, but how was their animal sacrifice different from those commanded by the old Law to praise God, especially when they thought that the deities were among them? Truly they were giving praise to God, but they did not know Him yet…they were, as the Lord said, worshiping what they did not know. How far where they from knowing that God had truly walked among men…yet their hearts were pointing in the right direction, and the Holy Spirit through Paul and Barnabas accomplished great things amidst them.

St. Paul had also demonstrated this point when in Athens he said:

I noticed among other things an altar inscribed: To An Unknown God. In fact, the unknown God you revere is the one I proclaim to you.

Again he saw that the people were not so much committing idolatry but rather they were offering adoration to false gods because they did not know the one true God. He takes that altar, a pagan altar, and employs it as a means to offer adoration to God and draw the people to Him.

These are just a few thoughts. If we focus our heart on Christ and dedicate ourselves to love one another, then everything can be turned in adoration to God, who can turn darkness into light, death into life, and turns red-hot sins into fresh, white snow.

 

[domestichippie]

Part of this goes back to a very old debate within the your Early Church about what the relationship between the prevading culture and your religion should be.

You can find a variety of different trends - from Tertullian’s rather stand-offish statement about “What is Athens to Jerusalem?” to some rather interesting remarks by your Pre/Post-Nicene writers regarding the status of Greek thought and the teachings of your Church.

One of the tactics adopted by your spiritual forefathers was, as Verbum stated, attempts to “christianize” non-Christian celebrations and practices to make them acceptable to your theology. Or in a less charitable sense, the pagan revival movement would essentially state your Church stole them.

It seem to be the case, especially in terms of saints, that the prevading strategy was to simply replace a local deity known to carry a specific “portfolio” (i’m the God of Grain harvests) with a Christian analogue.

On certain occasions, sometimes the God or Goddess in question became “mortal” (the story got switched around) which lead to the “mortal’s” canonization as a saint. There have been efforts both in the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches to verify the existence of certain the saints you venerate, which leads to the occasional exposure of a possible pre-Christian deity (and subsequent jettisoning of the “saint”)

So are you saying that any saints currently listed as an approved saint has been verified to exist and therefore it is ok to ask ask for their intercession as one would any brother or sister in Christ?
Or
Are you saying it possible that not all canonized saints have had their origins verified?

 

[TheAtheist]

So are you saying that any saints currently listed as an approved saint has been verified to exist and therefore it is ok to ask ask for their intercession as one would any brother or sister in Christ?
Or
Are you saying it possible that not all canonized saints have had their origins verified?

I’d argue “Work in progress.”

I mean, don’t go around thinking that someone like Thomas Aquinas didn’ exist. There’s a lot of written proof attesting to that. Same with alot of the “popular” saints of your Church.

But things become a little fuzzy with individuals whose stories seem to come out of nowhere. This is especially true for “national” saints who cropped up during the middle ages.

The one that sticks out most in my mind is that someone in your Church canonized a man named Josaphat…which turned out to be Siddartha Gautama or known by his title the world over as the Buddha.

Its a nice thought i suppose.

I wouldn’t worry about it too much, the majority of saints prayed to in your church are historical figures whose existence can be verified/corroborated by other sources.

but then again, i’m an atheist, so what do i know?

 

[Pleonic]

If you look through a good reference book that’s up on recent Saint research, such as ‘Dictionary of the Saints’ by John Delaney, you’ll find that several are thought by scholars never to have existed – such as St. Christopher or the martyrs Faith, Hope, and Charity. But the vast majority are considered to have been real people, although for some much of what we know of them is contained in legends. Actually the data we have on St. Brigid is quite good; it’s only relatively minor points ("Was she REALLY baptized by St. Patrick??) that may be an embelishment.

As Delaney writes, “Much of our knowledge of many Saints is not known with any degree of certainty. It is based on legend, myth, tradition, distorted biographies, hearsay – what have you. But as modern scholars know, much that is legendary and mythical is a method – often very practical – of passing to future generations a fact or a truth.”

For this reason I believe it is quite correct to pray to a Saint even if we may not be able to prove at this late date that everything told about them is true. The grace of faith and their acceptance by the Church is enough.

 

[Julia_Mae]

However decorating a tree while remembering the glorious birth of our Savior seems very different from praying to a person that may simply be a christianized way of worshiping old gods.

They’re just people. Catholic Saints are just people who are in heaven. I think some of them might be legendary, but almost all Saints of the Church are historical persons, some quite modern, (Like Padre Pio or Mother Teresa) who we believe are in Heaven.

We don’t worship them, we talk to them and ask for their help: pray, in other words. There are way more people in Heaven than our list of Saints, of course.

 

[Mintaka]

I used to believe what I was told, and think that St. Brigid was a Christianized version of an old goddess. Then I studied a lot more about early Christian history in Ireland and the rest of the world, and learned better.

First off, it wasn’t unusual for early Irish people to give their kids the names of gods and goddesses. We have the names of various known historical people who fit this naming pattern, either directly or by reference.

Second, the story of St. Brigid, while told in a way that resonates with pagan Irish beliefs, also contradicts them pretty directly. She was born a slave and became a leader; and she no sooner got any wealth than she gave it away; and she was a woman practiced in many skills without apparently having been schooled officially by members of the professional classes – all of which directly cuts up the Irish caste system of free and unfree classes, determined by birth, ownership of herds, and possession/schooling of various arts. Living her whole life as a nun, as an unmarried woman with other unmarried women, goes directly against Irish pagan patterns of life also. And so on… the Christian St. Brigid fits in best with all the other early Christian mothers of the Irish Church, as a sign of contradiction to pagan society and a new way of holiness. Thus her story is usually told with an emphasis on her association with thresholds, because thresholds were a place where new beginnings and changes could be made; and because after her, Ireland was a different place.

One thing you always hear (and I blame Geoffrey Cambrensis for starting it) is that the “eternal flame” at Brigid’s monastery was a pagan thing. The hilarious thing is that there were eternal flames for Jesus all over Europe; it was a big devotional fad, back a couple centuries before Geoffrey Cambrensis wrote. (Probably set off by one of the miracles associated with St. Eligius, the Frankish prime minister.) By Geoffrey’s time, it had died out lots of places except Ireland. This was the case with a lot of other Irish customs Geoffrey complained about. (You know how people say certain towns are ten years behind the rest of the country? After Viking times were over, Ireland was usually a hundred years behind European fashions and fads.) Nobody says that President Kennedy’s grave at Arlington’s eternal flame is pagan worship of the goddess Brigid, but the nuns at Kildare don’t get the same benefit of the doubt. Ironic.

 

[domestichippie]

I used to believe what I was told, and think that St. Brigid was a Christianized version of an old goddess. Then I studied a lot more about early Christian history in Ireland and the rest of the world, and learned better.

First off, it wasn’t unusual for early Irish people to give their kids the names of gods and goddesses. We have the names of various known historical people who fit this naming pattern, either directly or by reference.

Second, the story of St. Brigid, while told in a way that resonates with pagan Irish beliefs, also contradicts them pretty directly. She was born a slave and became a leader; and she no sooner got any wealth than she gave it away; and she was a woman practiced in many skills without apparently having been schooled officially by members of the professional classes – all of which directly cuts up the Irish caste system of free and unfree classes, determined by birth, ownership of herds, and possession/schooling of various arts. Living her whole life as a nun, as an unmarried woman with other unmarried women, goes directly against Irish pagan patterns of life also. And so on… the Christian St. Brigid fits in best with all the other early Christian mothers of the Irish Church, as a sign of contradiction to pagan society and a new way of holiness. Thus her story is usually told with an emphasis on her association with thresholds, because thresholds were a place where new beginnings and changes could be made; and because after her, Ireland was a different place.

One thing you always hear (and I blame Geoffrey Cambrensis for starting it) is that the “eternal flame” at Brigid’s monastery was a pagan thing. The hilarious thing is that there were eternal flames for Jesus all over Europe; it was a big devotional fad, back a couple centuries before Geoffrey Cambrensis wrote. (Probably set off by one of the miracles associated with St. Eligius, the Frankish prime minister.) By Geoffrey’s time, it had died out lots of places except Ireland. This was the case with a lot of other Irish customs Geoffrey complained about. (You know how people say certain towns are ten years behind the rest of the country? After Viking times were over, Ireland was usually a hBundred years behind European fashions and fads.) Nobody says that President Kennedy’s grave at Arlington’s eternal flame is pagan worship of the goddess Brigid, but the nuns at Kildare don’t get the same benefit of the doubt. Ironic.

Thanks. I was more concerned about the idea of Praying to a. On existent saint or worshiping a false god. Religious tradition share a lot of elements candle incense etc.

Do you have have any sItes or books you could recommend? I’d love to read more about Brigitte and Irish history

 

[Marc_Anthony]

They’re just people. Catholic Saints are just people who are in heaven. I think some of them might be legendary, but almost all Saints of the Church are historical persons, some quite modern, (Like Padre Pio or Mother Teresa) who we believe are in Heaven.

This is a good post (as are all of the posts in this thread), but it is worth pointing out that as of now Mother Teresa is still a Blessed, not yet a Saint.

The others are right, don’t sweat it.

 

[Julia_Mae]

This is a good post (as are all of the posts in this thread), but it is worth pointing out that as of now Mother Teresa is still a Blessed, not yet a Saint.

The others are right, don’t sweat it.

Thanks, Marc, I’ll try to remember.