God's Plan vs Free Will

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So, this is probably a thread more fit for the apologetics or philosophy forum, but I’d prefer responses over here.

So my wife is always saying that when “X” happens, that “X” is part of God’s plan. She uses this often with the kids, and it makes me cringe everytime. I just don’t see how this type of thinking is compatible with free will—which is fundamental to Catholicism. If God is shaping the minutia of everyone’s lives, what difference do our decsions make? Sin, suffering, success, holiness—would all be a direct result of God if our lives truly unfold according to his plan.

At the same time my wife cringes at my view that our circumstances in our lives are determined by our decisions and the random events that happen to us. That God doesn’t really get involved to shape our lives, but rather set things in motion…and left the outcome to be determined by humanity’s (including our) choices. She gets really irritated with me when we have conversations with the kids (teenagers, mind you) related to this.

Does anyone see this incompatibility as well? If not, where am I going wrong? Also, I’m curious if my understanding is compatible with Catholic teaching.
 
If our free choices are not part of God’s plan, then God is either not all-knowing, not all-wise, or not all-powerful, or he lacks all three of these perfections; in any case he would not be God. For God to permit things to unfold according to the interplay of secondary causes does not make him any less in control.
 
I’ve always felt that God works in those random chances. Allowing us free will but guiding as needed.
 
Rico_S said:
So, this is probably a thread more fit for the apologetics or philosophy forum, but I’d prefer responses over here.

So my wife is always saying that when “X” happens, that “X” is part of God’s plan. She uses this often with the kids, and it makes me cringe everytime. I just don’t see how this type of thinking is compatible with free will—which is fundamental to Catholicism. If God is shaping the minutia of everyone’s lives, what difference do our decsions make? Sin, suffering, success, holiness—would all be a direct result of God if our lives truly unfold according to his plan.

At the same time my wife cringes at my view that our circumstances in our lives are determined by our decisions and the random events that happen to us. That God doesn’t really get involved to shape our lives, but rather set things in motion…and left the outcome to be determined by humanity’s (including our) choices. She gets really irritated with me when we have conversations with the kids (teenagers, mind you) related to this.

Does anyone see this incompatibility as well? If not, where am I going wrong? Also, I’m curious if my understanding is compatible with Catholic teaching.
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The relationship between God’s providence and man’s free will is one of the tougher concepts to wrap one’s mind around (probably second only to the Trinity), and I don’t think the Church has ruled definitely one way or another. The mystery pops up in a few topics, such as predestination and the problem of suffering.

We do need to affirm a few things to remain within orthodox thought, but within certain bounds, the Church allows diversity of opinion. The non-negotiables are:
  • God has laid out a fixed order of divine providence, and this is immutable. God’s plan is his decree and will always be secured. There is nothing man can do to thwart it.
  • God gave man free will. We are not puppets on a string but rational creatures able to make free, reasoned decisions guided by grace but also able to reject grace.
As with the question of predestination, how God’s decree (plan) is secured vis-a-vis man’s free will is not defined so there is room for differences in thought. One way (used especially in the question of predestination, as expressed by the Thomists) is that God knows how each man will freely respond to various graces and situations, and will set in motion those graces/situations to secure the divine decree. Another way expressed by the Molinists is that God knows how each man freely responds to any given grace and out of no reason other than his sovereign will, lays out a fixed order of divine providence, factoring in how each man will freely respond to the graces laid out for him.

It is also permissible to think that God already knows how one would freely respond to given circumstances and use that decision as a “causa secunda” in obtaining the decreed outcome in his order of divine providence, i.e. make it part of his plan. This is one way we explain how intercessory prayer fits into the divine plan (God knows that you will pray for someone and he makes that prayer a “causa secunda” for the fulfilling of that intercession, and even moves you to pray to ensure that the intercessory prayer is made).

Where your position and your wife’s are concerned, both are deficient. You err by affirming man’s free will at the expense of God’s sovereignty, and your wife errs at affirming God’s sovereignty over man’s free will. Proper thought needs to affirm both, but as I demonstrated, it’s extraordinarily difficult. But both are revealed as truths by divine revelation, so therefore both must be affirmed. The challenge is in harmonizing them.
 
We know we have free will, and that we have the ability to choose to sin, and that sin can affect other people. God never wills sin, so it does strike me as somewhat… simplistic to say “X is part of God’s plan” when X is the result of someone’s sinful choices, as if to suggest that God wanted X to happen.

But you could say that because God is outside time and He already knows what choices we’re going to make and the circumstances of our lives, and yet He still calls us by name to become saints. In this way, everything is part of God’s plan because his plan for us is to know and love him and He knows what obstacles we may encounter along the way.

I would only add that we believe God does get involved in our lives, especially through the sacraments, and that grace can have a real effect on us and really prompt us to respond in holiness. Sure, He doesn’t come down and hide our car keys to teach us patience or tempt us to sin so that we feel guilt. But neither is he some far removed scientist who started this grand experiment and then left the building.
 
Everything happens for a reason. I always thought it’s God’s way of guiding us to Him. Sometimes we do not understand God’s plan but we know it is the true and right way for us in the long run. That is why we pray to let Jesus enter our hearts. In the prayer "I thirst for you’ Jesus says don’t you realize that My Father already has a perfect plan to transform your life, beginning from this moment? Trust in Me. Ask Me every day to enter and take charge of your life. – and I will.
This is beautiful…I love you Jesus.

catholictruth.net/en/archive_NRC.asp?d=20140309&a=2
 
An absolutely wonderful book on this type of question is “How God Acts” by Denis Edwards. A brief but profound look at the interplay of these two concepts as you have sketched them.
Rico_S said:
So, this is probably a thread more fit for the apologetics or philosophy forum, but I’d prefer responses over here.

So my wife is always saying that when “X” happens, that “X” is part of God’s plan. She uses this often with the kids, and it makes me cringe everytime. I just don’t see how this type of thinking is compatible with free will—which is fundamental to Catholicism. If God is shaping the minutia of everyone’s lives, what difference do our decsions make? Sin, suffering, success, holiness—would all be a direct result of God if our lives truly unfold according to his plan.

At the same time my wife cringes at my view that our circumstances in our lives are determined by our decisions and the random events that happen to us. That God doesn’t really get involved to shape our lives, but rather set things in motion…and left the outcome to be determined by humanity’s (including our) choices. She gets really irritated with me when we have conversations with the kids (teenagers, mind you) related to this.

Does anyone see this incompatibility as well? If not, where am I going wrong? Also, I’m curious if my understanding is compatible with Catholic teaching.
Click to expand...
 
porthos11 said:
Where your position and your wife’s are concerned, both are deficient. You err by affirming man’s free will at the expense of God’s sovereignty, and your wife errs at affirming God’s sovereignty over man’s free will. Proper thought needs to affirm both, but as I demonstrated, it’s extraordinarily difficult. But both are revealed as truths by divine revelation, so therefore both must be affirmed. The challenge is in harmonizing them.
Click to expand...
I agree.

It has been difficult for me to get a handle on this concept. There are some clues, but it’s hard to reconcile them into a concept fit for understanding.

Here’s a clue:
-“lead us not into temptation”
 
I’d cringe as well.

I cannot accept that God’s plan was for someone to sin, drive intoxicated and kill a person. But it happens, because God permits free will.

On the other hand, I firmly believe that the driver’s guardian angel, the Holy Spirit, and thru them, God himself, were all trying to lead the driver away from the sin and the consequences that were going to happen (God being all-knowing). And, for all I know, were working, perchance to try to influence the victim’s choices to a degree that they would not be killed.

But for me the main point is this - God is in control and, knowing the future, works all for good. Yes, it is horrible the person was killed, but in the realm of God’s plan, we all know we could perish at any time and that’s why we need to maintain our faith and live lives pleasing to God for we don’t know how long we will be here. So if the victim was using their free will to follow God, then while missed greatly by their loved ones here - they have gone to be with our Lord - the goal of all our mortal lives.

On the other hand, if the driver did listen to their conscience, made good choices and didn’t drive drunk and kill the person, then I also have faith that God would have known that would happen (that God can intimately know both is beyond my comprehension but I accept it by faith) and had a plan for that person’s life to continue and be a blessing (if they made right choices) to those around them.

And then there’s the third option - sometimes to make sure God’s plan plays out according to His design - then there’s always the option of a miracle. To me those are the rare instances (or maybe not so rare - we just don’t acknowledge them when we see them) that there’s some actual divine intervention that ensures a certain outcome. However, since God, obviously doesn’t interfere with our free will, it’s consequences, often - one must assume that some things (the color we paint our house, whether a dish breaks when dropped, whether we take Spanish or French in school, etc) just don’t matter to God’s plan - though He’s interested and ready to listen to us as we rejoice or complain about ALL the details of our lives.

I think the problem arises when we try to define God’s plan as specific to our human understanding rather than so timelessly complex, yet infinitely caring that it is beyond us.
 
Thanks all for the responses. I’ve been out of pocket for a while so haven’t been able to respond.

I guess the proper perspective to take is that it is a mystery…like the Trinity (although the Trinity doesn’t seem quite as difficult to grasp/accept, imo)
porthos11 said:
We do need to affirm a few things to remain within orthodox thought, but within certain bounds, the Church allows diversity of opinion. The non-negotiables are:
  • God has laid out a fixed order of divine providence, and this is immutable. God’s plan is his decree and will always be secured. There is nothing man can do to thwart it.
  • God gave man free will. We are not puppets on a string but rational creatures able to make free, reasoned decisions guided by grace but also able to reject grace.
Click to expand...
I cannot reconcile these two…they contradict one another. I do not see how we can confidently affirm both at the same time.
 
Rico_S said:
So, this is probably a thread more fit for the apologetics or philosophy forum, but I’d prefer responses over here.

So my wife is always saying that when “X” happens, that “X” is part of God’s plan. She uses this often with the kids, and it makes me cringe everytime. I just don’t see how this type of thinking is compatible with free will—which is fundamental to Catholicism. If God is shaping the minutia of everyone’s lives, what difference do our decsions make? Sin, suffering, success, holiness—would all be a direct result of God if our lives truly unfold according to his plan.

At the same time my wife cringes at my view that our circumstances in our lives are determined by our decisions and the random events that happen to us. That God doesn’t really get involved to shape our lives, but rather set things in motion…and left the outcome to be determined by humanity’s (including our) choices. She gets really irritated with me when we have conversations with the kids (teenagers, mind you) related to this.

Does anyone see this incompatibility as well? If not, where am I going wrong? Also, I’m curious if my understanding is compatible with Catholic teaching.
Click to expand...
From Fundmentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott:
  • God knows all that is merely possible by the knowledge of simple intelligence.
  • God knows all real things in the past, the present and the future.
  • By the knowledge of vision, God also foresees the future free acts of rational creatures with infallible certainty.
  • God, through His Providence, protects and guides all that He has created.
 
You might want to talk to your wife and get on the same page where the individual Christian does not have to worry which circumstances are the result of the Fall and which are the result of the generosity of Providence. All that matters is that every circumstance is an opportunity for obedience, for allowing the Lord to strengthen our reliance on Him and to accomplish the coming of the Kingdom of God. As I like to say, we all know when we build our homes that hurricanes will come in this life. They’ve been rolling through since time began and worse will probably come before we have seen them all. When the hurricane comes, we are shown where we have our foundation, and what our foundation is made of. We’d better hope we didn’t put our hopes in a mere physical structure.

After all, it was our sins that nailed Our Lord to the Cross, but Providence that transformed our transgression into the saving Pascal Mystery. In other words, teach your children this: The devil can take the best thing in the world and turn it into a temptation, but God can take the worst thing in the world and turn it into a victory for Heaven. Every situation is important only in that aspect, then: Will we use it as an opportunity to do God’s will and grow in virtue and in our friendship with God or as an occasion for our hearts to harden into self-centeredness, despair, or vice?
 
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