God's righteousness

[Vincent]

What is the righteousness that comes from God?

Therefore, “the righteousness that comes from God . . . God’s righteousness”, which we are to know and that to which we ought to submit, (Cf. Romans 10) is God’s created gift of justice/righteousness freely given to us.

(Post 9)
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[Reformed]

Therefore, “the righteousness that comes from God . . . God’s righteousness”, which we are to know and that to which we ought to submit, (Cf. Romans 10) is God’s created gift of justice/righteousness freely given to us.

(Post 9)
​

I don’t agree with your defintion of the righteousness the comes from God.

Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. - Rom 10

 

[Vincent]

I don’t agree with your defintion of the righteousness the comes from God.

Why?

 

[Reformed]

Why?

Because that is not the righteousness provided by God according to the Scriptures. The answer is an alien righteousness. Please let us know if you come up with a different answer.

 

[Vincent]

Because that is not the righteousness provided by God according to the Scriptures. The answer is an alien righteousness. Please let us know if you come up with a different answer.

Yes, you’ve mentioned in your original post that you believe that this righteousness is “an alien righteousness”.

It would be helpful if you would explain what you mean by that and show how it’s incompatible with my explanation in post 9.

 

[Reformed]

Yes, you’ve mentioned in your original post that you believe that this righteousness is “an alien righteousness”.

It would be helpful if you would explain what you mean by that and show how it’s incompatible with my explanation in post 9.

An alien righteousness comes outside ourselves and has been provided from above. I believe Martin Luther used the term alien righteousness too. The righteousness of God is found in a person. The identity of this alien righteousness can be found in the following verses:

The Ministry of Reconciliation

11 Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade others. But what we are is known to God, and I hope it is known also to your conscience. 12 We are not commending ourselves to you again but giving you cause to boast about us, so that you may be able to answer those who boast about outward appearance and not about what is in the heart. 13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. 14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; 15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

16 From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. [2] The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling [3] the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Cor 5

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. - Rom 10

This is one of the main passages that I have difficulties with Roman Catholicism as being the true Christian Faith. Please give me you understanding of the above passage according to your Roman Catholic Faith. It seems you can almost substitute the word Israelites for Roman Catholics in the passage above. I believe God’s righteousness is an alien righteousness, found outside of ourselves. This righteousness provided by God is the sole basis why God declares a sinner justified and is able to permanently adopt his enemy into His faimily.

Most of your answers will be found in the link in my signature where the major points are directly addressed. I assure you, you are in for a surprise.
I’m pressed for time at the moment to say much more.

 

[Reformed]

Most of your answers will be found in the link in my signature where the major points are directly addressed. I assure you, you are in for a surprise.
I’m pressed for time at the moment to say much more.

Thanks for the post. But, you haven’t even attempted to answer the question in the OP. Please explain your understanding of God’s righteousness. Here is the OP passage again. I would love to hear your interpertation of it. Submitting to God’s righteousness has nothing to do with Roman Catholic theology or Reformed Theology. It is not a matter of apologetics either. The righteousness that comes from God is a truth from God alone.

Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. - Rom 10

 

[Vincent]

An alien righteousness comes outside ourselves and has been provided from above.

Would you specify just how it differs from what I wrote?

I believe Martin Luther used the term alien righteousness too. The righteousness of God is found in a person. The identity of this alien righteousness can be found in the following verses:

I’m unclear as to how 2 Corinthians 5 sheds additional light.

 

[Reformed]

Would you specify just how it differs from what I wrote?

I’m unclear as to how 2 Corinthians 5 sheds additional light.

Do you give up and want the answer based on knowledge? God requires a perfect righteousness which we can never achieve. I believe what you wrote is missing the central hope as Christians. I want you to figure out what is missing for mutual edification. We should proclaim *** to each other as Christians.

Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. - Rom 10

 

[Vincent]

I apologize if I seem obtuse, but our conversation appears to be going in circles.

In your original post you asked for a Catholic reading of Romans 10. After repeated attempts to clarify why you disagree with my explanation of “God’s righteousness”, you conclude that it is “missing the central hope as Christians,” and again quote Romans 10.

Unless you give further explanation, it’s unclear as to just how we differ, and just how Romans 10, in your words, is “one of the main passages that I have difficulties with Roman Catholicism as being the true Christian Faith.”

 

[Reformed]

I apologize if I seem obtuse, but our conversation appears to be going in circles.

In your original post you asked for a Catholic reading of Romans 10. After repeated requests to understand why you disagree with my explanation of “God’s righteousness”, you conclude that it is “missing the central hope as Christians,” and again quote Romans 10.

Unless you give further explanation, it’s unclear as to just how we differ, and just how Romans 10, in your words, is “one of the main passages that I have difficulties with Roman Catholicism as being the true Christian Faith.”

Thanks for all of your postings Vincent. I just want you to come up with the answer, because I believe this is essential. Many ex-Catholics will also share the same thing. If I gave you the answer, I don’t think the impact will be as great. I want all of us to grow in our affection for God alone.

 

[MIZER]

Dear reformed,

I appears you have eyes and you may read but you do not see.

My agenda: point people to Jesus Christ… growing each one of us in deeper affection and love for God and our fellow man as Chrisitans through the grace and power of God. Therefore, we as Christians mortify our flesh and idols of the heart, learning together to live for the glory of God.

The Church which Christ established on Earth is the Earthly manifestation of Himself. How can you point people to Jesus Christ without pointing them to His One True Church? How can you have deep affection and love for God and reject the One Church HE founded at the same time? The Church is not an “idol of the heart.” The church is the “body of Christ.”

 

[MIZER]

reformed posted:

I just want you to come up with the answer, because I believe this is essential. Many ex-Catholics will also share the same thing. If I gave you the answer, I don’t think the impact will be as great. I want all of us to grow in our affection for God alone.

What a bunch of arrogant and self righteous bologne this is. You have been given the answer to your question, and abundantly so, with scripture as back up for the proof of the answer. If you have a different perspective or opinion you should just offer it. Saying that you are going to withold it until we “come up with the* correct* protestant answer,” that is the one protestant answer in your head which is, no doubt, one of potentially thousands, because you have some misguided idea that it will have some great impact on us is just silly.

Do you think we will smack our heads and say, “oh, and to think, I could have been protestant this whole time if I only had been aware of this information!!!” ???

From what I’ve read on this thread, your answer won’t differ from what has already been written here, on this subject. You will claim that there is a difference, but only because you cannot tollerate the idea that the Catholic Church, as the mystical body of Christ, is the personification of truth itself.

You are wasting time.

 

[Reformed]

Dear reformed,

I appears you have eyes and you may read but you do not see.

The Church which Christ established on Earth is the Earthly manifestation of Himself. How can you point people to Jesus Christ without pointing them to His One True Church? How can you have deep affection and love for God and reject the One Church HE founded at the same time? The Church is not an “idol of the heart.” The church is the “body of Christ.”

I have to respectfully disagree with you. If you point to religious organizations such as the Roman Catholic Church and other religious institutions, unregenerate people will probably see the flesh in the churches (hypocrisy and sin). God saves sinners through the proclamation of the gospel of God’s grace by the power of the Holy Spirit, and not through sprinkling of water. If people are united to Christ and born from above through sprinkling of water, you would have 1 billion catholics who would be led by the Spirit, and never leave the Catholic Church if the Catholic Church is the One True Church. The one true church is a living organism consisting of regenerate Christians from various Christian communities, and some who do not even attend a church. You cannot consider Protestants your separated brethren and state that they are not part of the church. The catholic church is universal. When you add the word Roman in front of catholic, you are not longer talking about God’s universal (catholic) church which he has chosen before the foundation of the world. The topic of this thread is God’s righteousness which is required for entrance into Heaven. God’s righteousness is not membership and communion with the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[Reformed]

What a bunch of arrogant and self righteous bologne this is. You have been given the answer to your question, and abundantly so, with scripture as back up for the proof of the answer. If you have a different perspective or opinion you should just offer it. Saying that you are going to withold it until we “come up with the* correct* protestant answer,” that is the one protestant answer in your head which is, no doubt, one of potentially thousands, because you have some misguided idea that it will have some great impact on us is just silly.

Do you think we will smack our heads and say, “oh, and to think, I could have been protestant this whole time if I only had been aware of this information!!!” ???

From what I’ve read on this thread, your answer won’t differ from what has already been written here, on this subject. You will claim that there is a difference, but only because you cannot tollerate the idea that the Catholic Church, as the mystical body of Christ, is the personification of truth itself.

You are wasting time.

Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. - Rom 10

Please give me your understanding of God’s righteousness. The Apostle Paul states that people perish from a lack of knowledge. This has nothing to do with Protestant and Roman Catholic theology. Do you posses the righteousness that comes from God, or are you trying to establish your own righteousness to enter Heaven?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The poster, Reformed, claims an “invisible” Church which connects all Christians no matter the number of denominations. He professes that all Christians are affilated in the “essentials”. Some Protestants believe in infant baptism, some do not. Some believe abortions are a woman’s choice, some do not. Some believe divorce is ok, others do not. Some accept homosexuality as a lifestyle, others do not. Some believe in sola scriptura, some do not. Some believe in once saved always saved, others do not. The list can go on and on here.

Who gets to decide the “essentials”?

Catholics believe in the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit protected Church Christ created, so we may be perfectly one as he prayed for to the Father. Christ promised to be with us until the consummation of the world.

Some Protestants say sola scriptura works through what the Holy Spirit tells them through scriptures, while others say the Holy Spirit alone works directly within them. With so many people telling us they received the truth from scriptures and/or the Holy Spirit, yet they tell us different teachings, how do we know which ones really received a message from the Holy Spirit?

Christ was the fullness of truth. If you have a part of the truth, is it still truth?

In my opinion, obedience to the Church Christ created is obedience to God. If a Church lacks the fullness of truth, is it obedience to God or possibly a compromise between one’s lifestyle choices and God?

With all the denominations in the world, which Church teaches to worship God the way he wants to be worshipped?

With all the denominations and the differences in each one, how can we become perfectly one as Christ desired?

As Reformed likes to say, the Apostle Paul says:

2Co 11:4 Because any chance comer has only to preach a Jesus other than the one we preached, or you have only to receive a spirit different from the one you received, or a gospel different from the one you accepted – and you put up with that only too willingly.

 

[Reformed]

The poster, Reformed, claims an “invisible” Church which connects all Christians no matter the number of denominations. He professes that all Christians are affilated in the “essentials”. Some Protestants believe in infant baptism, some do not. Some believe abortions are a woman’s choice, some do not. Some believe divorce is ok, others do not. Some accept homosexuality as a lifestyle, others do not. Some believe in sola scriptura, some do not. Some believe in once saved always saved, others do not. The list can go on and on here.

Who gets to decide the “essentials”?

Catholics believe in the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit protected Church Christ created, so we may be perfectly one as he prayed for to the Father. Christ promised to be with us until the consummation of the world.

Some Protestants say sola scriptura works through what the Holy Spirit tells them through scriptures, while others say the Holy Spirit alone works directly within them. With so many people telling us they received the truth from scriptures and/or the Holy Spirit, yet they tell us different teachings, how do we know which ones really received a message from the Holy Spirit?

Christ was the fullness of truth. If you have a part of the truth, is it still truth?

In my opinion, obedience to the Church Christ created is obedience to God. If a Church lacks the fullness of truth, is it obedience to God or possibly a compromise between one’s lifestyle choices and God?

With all the denominations in the world, which Church teaches to worship God the way he wants to be worshipped?

With all the denominations and the differences in each one, how can we become perfectly one as Christ desired?

As Reformed likes to say, the Apostle Paul says:

2Co 11:4 Because any chance comer has only to preach a Jesus other than the one we preached, or you have only to receive a spirit different from the one you received, or a gospel different from the one you accepted – and you put up with that only too willingly.

Hi Prodigal,

Why do want to try to speak for me? I don’t think I ever posted 2 Cor 11:4 on this site. I don’t think any Protestants believe in infant baptismal regeneration. I think you have misrepresented my beliefs to avoid the issue at hand. Here is the OP again.

Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. - Rom 10

My question to you according to the OP: "What is the righteousness that comes from God which God requires for Heaven? Do you possess this righteousness, or are you trying to establish your own? Will your answer be based on knowledge? This has nothing to do with Roman Catholic or Protestant theology. This is God’s requirement according to His Word.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Hi Prodigal,

Why do want to speak for me? I don’t think I ever posted 2 Cor 11:4 on this site. Here is the OP again.

Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. - Rom 10

My question to you according to the OP: "What is the righteousness that comes from God which God requires for Heaven? Do you possess this righteousness, or are you trying to establish your own? Will your answer be based on knowledge? This has nothing to do with Roman Catholic or Protestant theology. This is God’s requirement according to His Word.

No offense, but you sound like a broken record. You don’t address any posts to your attention and when you do you repeat the same questions over and over. Many times you don’t even supply an opinion but a scripture and ask for our opinions.

I am not trying to establish my own righteousness. I belong the Holy Spirit protected Church Christ started Himself, and promised to be with until the end of the world.

Those trying to establish their own righteousness are those who privately interpret scriptures to fit their beliefs and ignore worshipping God the way He desires to be worshipped.

As you state, this is a requirement of God’s word, I have to ask by who’s interpretation? Who granted authority to the interpreter to interpret God’s word?

Therefore, this is about Catholic theology vs. Protestant theology. Please address my questions.

The poster, Reformed, claims an “invisible” Church which connects all Christians no matter the number of denominations. He professes that all Christians are affilated in the “essentials”. Some Protestants believe in infant baptism, some do not. Some believe abortions are a woman’s choice, some do not. Some believe divorce is ok, others do not. Some accept homosexuality as a lifestyle, others do not. Some believe in sola scriptura, some do not. Some believe in once saved always saved, others do not. The list can go on and on here.

Who gets to decide the “essentials”?

Catholics believe in the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit protected Church Christ created, so we may be perfectly one as he prayed for to the Father. Christ promised to be with us until the consummation of the world.

Some Protestants say sola scriptura works through what the Holy Spirit tells them through scriptures, while others say the Holy Spirit alone works directly within them. With so many people telling us they received the truth from scriptures and/or the Holy Spirit, yet they tell us different teachings, how do we know which ones really received a message from the Holy Spirit?

Christ was the fullness of truth. If you have a part of the truth, is it still truth?

In my opinion, obedience to the Church Christ created is obedience to God. If a Church lacks the fullness of truth, is it obedience to God or possibly a compromise between one’s lifestyle choices and God?

With all the denominations in the world, which Church teaches to worship God the way he wants to be worshipped?

With all the denominations and the differences in each one, how can we become perfectly one as Christ desired?

As Reformed likes to say, the Apostle Paul says:

2Co 11:4 Because any chance comer has only to preach a Jesus other than the one we preached, or you have only to receive a spirit different from the one you received, or a gospel different from the one you accepted – and you put up with that only too willingly.

 

[Reformed]

No offense, but you sound like a broken record. You don’t address any posts to your attention and when you do you repeat the same questions over and over. Many times you don’t even supply an opinion but a scripture and ask for our opinions.

I am not trying to establish my own righteousness. I belong the Holy Spirit protected Church Christ started Himself, and promised to be with until the end of the world.

Those trying to establish their own righteousness are those who privately interpret scriptures to fit their beliefs and ignore worshipping God the way He desires to be worshipped.

As you state, this is a requirement of God’s word, I have to ask by who’s interpretation? Who granted authority to the interpreter to interpret God’s word?

Therefore, this is about Catholic theology vs. Protestant theology. Please address my questions.

The poster, Reformed, claims an “invisible” Church which connects all Christians no matter the number of denominations. He professes that all Christians are affilated in the “essentials”. Some Protestants believe in infant baptism, some do not. Some believe abortions are a woman’s choice, some do not. Some believe divorce is ok, others do not. Some accept homosexuality as a lifestyle, others do not. Some believe in sola scriptura, some do not. Some believe in once saved always saved, others do not. The list can go on and on here.

Who gets to decide the “essentials”?

Catholics believe in the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit protected Church Christ created, so we may be perfectly one as he prayed for to the Father. Christ promised to be with us until the consummation of the world.

Some Protestants say sola scriptura works through what the Holy Spirit tells them through scriptures, while others say the Holy Spirit alone works directly within them. With so many people telling us they received the truth from scriptures and/or the Holy Spirit, yet they tell us different teachings, how do we know which ones really received a message from the Holy Spirit?

Christ was the fullness of truth. If you have a part of the truth, is it still truth?

In my opinion, obedience to the Church Christ created is obedience to God. If a Church lacks the fullness of truth, is it obedience to God or possibly a compromise between one’s lifestyle choices and God?

With all the denominations in the world, which Church teaches to worship God the way he wants to be worshipped?

With all the denominations and the differences in each one, how can we become perfectly one as Christ desired?

As Reformed likes to say, the Apostle Paul says:

2Co 11:4 Because any chance comer has only to preach a Jesus other than the one we preached, or you have only to receive a spirit different from the one you received, or a gospel different from the one you accepted – and you put up with that only too willingly.

Prodigal,

I don’t mean to say this to be mean, but I say this in speaking the truth in love. When I read your postings, your righteousness is membership in the Roman Catholic Church. Please re-read this particular posting to see if what I say is at least partially true. So, what is God’s righteousness? If you were to die today, why should God allow you into His everlasting kingdom?