God's righteousness

[Prodigal_Son1]

Prodigal,

I don’t mean to say this to be mean, but I say this in speaking the truth in love. When I read your postings, your righteousness is membership in the Roman Catholic Church. Please re-read this particular posting to see if what I say is at least partially true. So, what is God’s righteousness? If you were to die today, why should God allow you into His everlasting kingdom?

You offer nothing by your speculations against the Church that CHRIST created Himself. How can you speak against His creation without addressing the questions and issued I’ve raised in my post?

My righteousness is through the teachings and promises of Christ. I receive those teachings through the one true Church that He created and promised to be with until the consummation of the world.

I cannot give credibility any teachings you offer through your private interpretation until you can satisfactorily answer those questions and issues as I’ve posted referencing thousands of denominations which only have parts of the truth they received from the Catholic Church.

Please quit avoiding them and explain them as you are “guided”.

The poster, Reformed, claims an “invisible” Church which connects all Christians no matter the number of denominations. He professes that all Christians are affilated in the “essentials”. Some Protestants believe in infant baptism, some do not. Some believe abortions are a woman’s choice, some do not. Some believe divorce is ok, others do not. Some accept homosexuality as a lifestyle, others do not. Some believe in sola scriptura, some do not. Some believe in once saved always saved, others do not. The list can go on and on here.

Who gets to decide the “essentials”?

Catholics believe in the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit protected Church Christ created, so we may be perfectly one as he prayed for to the Father. Christ promised to be with us until the consummation of the world.

Some Protestants say sola scriptura works through what the Holy Spirit tells them through scriptures, while others say the Holy Spirit alone works directly within them. With so many people telling us they received the truth from scriptures and/or the Holy Spirit, yet they tell us different teachings, how do we know which ones really received a message from the Holy Spirit?

Christ was the fullness of truth. If you have a part of the truth, is it still truth?

In my opinion, obedience to the Church Christ created is obedience to God. If a Church lacks the fullness of truth, is it obedience to God or possibly a compromise between one’s lifestyle choices and God?

With all the denominations in the world, which Church teaches to worship God the way he wants to be worshipped?

With all the denominations and the differences in each one, how can we become perfectly one as Christ desired?

As Reformed likes to say, the Apostle Paul says:

2Co 11:4 Because any chance comer has only to preach a Jesus other than the one we preached, or you have only to receive a spirit different from the one you received, or a gospel different from the one you accepted – and you put up with that only too willingly.

 

[Reformed]

You offer nothing by your speculations against the Church that CHRIST created Himself. How can you speak against His creation without addressing the questions and issued I’ve raised in my post?

My righteousness is through the teachings and promises of Christ. I receive those teachings through the one true Church that He created and promised to be with until the consummation of the world.

I cannot give credibility any teachings you offer through your private interpretation until you can satisfactorily answer those questions and issues as I’ve posted referencing thousands of denominations which only have parts of the truth they received from the Catholic Church.

Please quit avoiding them and explain them as you are “guided”.

The poster, Reformed, claims an “invisible” Church which connects all Christians no matter the number of denominations. He professes that all Christians are affilated in the “essentials”. Some Protestants believe in infant baptism, some do not. Some believe abortions are a woman’s choice, some do not. Some believe divorce is ok, others do not. Some accept homosexuality as a lifestyle, others do not. Some believe in sola scriptura, some do not. Some believe in once saved always saved, others do not. The list can go on and on here.

Who gets to decide the “essentials”?

Catholics believe in the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit protected Church Christ created, so we may be perfectly one as he prayed for to the Father. Christ promised to be with us until the consummation of the world.

Some Protestants say sola scriptura works through what the Holy Spirit tells them through scriptures, while others say the Holy Spirit alone works directly within them. With so many people telling us they received the truth from scriptures and/or the Holy Spirit, yet they tell us different teachings, how do we know which ones really received a message from the Holy Spirit?

Christ was the fullness of truth. If you have a part of the truth, is it still truth?

In my opinion, obedience to the Church Christ created is obedience to God. If a Church lacks the fullness of truth, is it obedience to God or possibly a compromise between one’s lifestyle choices and God?

With all the denominations in the world, which Church teaches to worship God the way he wants to be worshipped?

With all the denominations and the differences in each one, how can we become perfectly one as Christ desired?

As Reformed likes to say, the Apostle Paul says:

2Co 11:4 Because any chance comer has only to preach a Jesus other than the one we preached, or you have only to receive a spirit different from the one you received, or a gospel different from the one you accepted – and you put up with that only too willingly.

Please share the Gospel of God’s grace with me. Maybe we have more in common than I think. If you noticed, the Apostle Paul had great affection for the Israelites. I am only trying to share the truth in love. Reformed Theology and Roman Catholic Theology is not the savior.

Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. - Rom 10

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Please share the Gospel of God’s grace with me. Maybe we have more in common than I think. If you noticed, the Apostle Paul had great affection for the Israelites. I am only trying to share the truth in love. Reformed Theology and Roman Catholic Theology is not the savior.

Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. - Rom 10

Wow, I cannot believe you avoid answering the questions and issues but ask for another explanation of something else.

I have addressed faith, grace and righteousness only to have to take the discussion in another direction.

Faith is a gift from God. Because of our faith we receive the gift of grace from God. Faith is like an instrument. If we do not use it, do we still receive grace? If on the other hand, we use it well we receive an abundance of God’s grace. I know you’re trying to turn this into a works argument, but let’s replace the word works with “our response to God”. God requires our full response, 24/7. That is to live our Christianity ALL the time and not just an hour or so on Sundays.

Ok, I’ve addressed my views on grace. Are you going to address my concerns on multiple denominations as our differences in teachings and doctrines could have a major impact on “our response to God” and His grace?

The poster, Reformed, claims an “invisible” Church which connects all Christians no matter the number of denominations. He professes that all Christians are affilated in the “essentials”. Some Protestants believe in infant baptism, some do not. Some believe abortions are a woman’s choice, some do not. Some believe divorce is ok, others do not. Some accept homosexuality as a lifestyle, others do not. Some believe in sola scriptura, some do not. Some believe in once saved always saved, others do not. The list can go on and on here.

Who gets to decide the “essentials”?

Catholics believe in the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit protected Church Christ created, so we may be perfectly one as he prayed for to the Father. Christ promised to be with us until the consummation of the world.

Some Protestants say sola scriptura works through what the Holy Spirit tells them through scriptures, while others say the Holy Spirit alone works directly within them. With so many people telling us they received the truth from scriptures and/or the Holy Spirit, yet they tell us different teachings, how do we know which ones really received a message from the Holy Spirit?

Christ was the fullness of truth. If you have a part of the truth, is it still truth?

In my opinion, obedience to the Church Christ created is obedience to God. If a Church lacks the fullness of truth, is it obedience to God or possibly a compromise between one’s lifestyle choices and God?

With all the denominations in the world, which Church teaches to worship God the way he wants to be worshipped?

With all the denominations and the differences in each one, how can we become perfectly one as Christ desired?

As Reformed likes to say, the Apostle Paul says:

2Co 11:4 Because any chance comer has only to preach a Jesus other than the one we preached, or you have only to receive a spirit different from the one you received, or a gospel different from the one you accepted – and you put up with that only too willingly.

 

[MIZER]

reformed posted:

Please share the Gospel of God’s grace with me. Maybe we have more in common than I think. If you noticed, the Apostle Paul had great affection for the Israelites. I am only trying to share the truth in love. Reformed Theology and Roman Catholic Theology is not the savior

.

You are not sharing the truth at all. You just keep ignoring what Prodigal son says and you just keep asking the same question over and over and over and over. I asked you what “reformed theology” is and you ignored me. You must think we are stupid if you think we believe that theology of any flavor is the savior. We know Jesus is the savior and the question of what is God’s Righteousness has been answered. You refuse, apparently, to offer your opinion as to that answer.

What is your major malfunction?

 

[Reformed]

.

You are not sharing the truth at all. You just keep ignoring what Prodigal son says and you just keep asking the same question over and over and over and over. I asked you what “reformed theology” is and you ignored me. You must think we are stupid if you think we believe that theology of any flavor is the savior. We know Jesus is the savior and the question of what is God’s Righteousness has been answered. You refuse, apparently, to offer your opinion as to that answer.

What is your major malfunction?

Here is a site to study Reformed Theology:

monergism.com/

Do you mind sharing the gospel of God’s grace? What is the righteousness from God that is required?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Here is a site to study Reformed Theology:

monergism.com/

Do you mind sharing the gospel of God’s grace? What is the righteousness from God that is required?

Faith is a gift from God. Because of our faith we receive the gift of grace from God. Faith is like an instrument. If we do not use it, do we still receive grace? If on the other hand, we use it well we receive an abundance of God’s grace. I know this is where Protestants and Catholics usually divide when the discussion includes a works argument, but let’s replace the word works with “our response to God”. God requires our full response, 24/7. That is to live our Christianity ALL the time and not just an hour or so on Sundays.

Now, I’ve addressed grace as many times as you’ve used it to change subjects. You never respond to my thoughts on faith and grace.

Are you going to return the courtesy and respond to the issues I’ve brought up in this and my previous posts?

Please prove to us that you do not have an agenda of converting Catholics, or simply bashing Catholicism and respond. Direct responses from both sides are what makes a discussion.

 

[Reformed]

Faith is a gift from God. Because of our faith we receive the gift of grace from God. Faith is like an instrument. If we do not use it, do we still receive grace? If on the other hand, we use it well we receive an abundance of God’s grace. I know this is where Protestants and Catholics usually divide when the discussion includes a works argument, but let’s replace the word works with “our response to God”. God requires our full response, 24/7. That is to live our Christianity ALL the time and not just an hour or so on Sundays.

Now, I’ve addressed grace as many times as you’ve used it to change subjects. You never respond to my thoughts on faith and grace.

Are you going to return the courtesy and respond to the issues I’ve brought up in this and my previous posts?

Please prove to us that you do not have an agenda of converting Catholics, or simply bashing Catholicism and respond. Direct responses from both sides are what makes a discussion.

How can I convert Catholics who are already united to Christ. Salvation is of the Lord, and not a cause by men. I embrace a monergism perspective. Again, not all Catholics and Protestants are united to Christ. I also believe converted Christains should proclaim Christ and the gospel to each other for encouragement and strenght in the Christian Faith. I think grace needs to be defined because our differences on key words are more than semantics. I do not believe that our personal faith comes into the equation. I agree that faith is a gift of God, and we are saved by grace through the instrument of faith. Please start slow and I will try to follow your discussion. I think you need to go beyond the who gave us the scripture position, because that will be a dead end. Let’s get into the heart of Christianity and focus on the person and work of Jesus Christ on behalf of sinners.

 

[MIZER]

Reformed,

I will go to the website you posted to learn about reformed theology. Thank you.

I have already answered your question from my own lay opinion. I think the righteousness that comes from God that is required is Jesus Christ. That could be looked at in a number of different ways.

In addition, I would defer to church teaching which another poster has already included on this thread.

Other than that, I honestly don’t know what you are getting at. And unfortunately, if you will not tell me then we are at a stalemate as I do not have time to continue to play this circular game you’ve instituted.

I pray you find the answer you are looking for, but only if it’s the right one.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

How can I convert Catholics who are already united to Christ. Salvation is of the Lord, and not a cause by men. I embrace a monergism perspective. Again, not all Catholics and Protestants are united to Christ. I also believe converted Christains should proclaim Christ and the gospel to each other for encouragement and strenght in the Christian Faith. I think grace needs to be defined because our differences on key words are more than semantics. I do not believe that our personal faith comes into the equation. I agree that faith is a gift of God, and we are saved by grace through the instrument of faith. Please start slow and I will try to follow your discussion. I think you need to go beyond the who gave us the scripture position, because that will be a dead end. Let’s get into the heart of Christianity and focus on the person and work of Jesus Christ on behalf of sinners.

Actually, I think it’s time for you to quit ignoring my previous post. I have answered your question and asked that you address my previous post multiple times. Instead you attempt to take the discussion further away by wanting to argue semantics.

You say all Christians should proclaim the Gospel for encouragement for our faiths. You disregard any questions we, Christians, provide and stay on course with your proclamation. This brings my issues of who exactly preaches a correct Gospel to the forefront. Because you state yours is correct, does not exactly make it so. St. Paul clearly warned of those who preach a different Gospel than that which was received. You have not proven to be preaching the Gospel which was received as of yet. To address the authority presents a problem for you or so it appears.

The above reasons are why you have been banned from other forums. You do not discuss, which is an exchange of theologies. You stay on track with your own “agenda”. Often, when someone directly speaks to your posts, you change subjects or go off and start another thread making the same exact arguments and using the same bait and switch tactics. I do not mean to sound offensive here, I am just stating the facts as I have observed them.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Thanks for the post. But, you haven’t even attempted to answer the question in the OP. Please explain your understanding of God’s righteousness. Here is the OP passage again. I would love to hear your interpretation of it. Submitting to God’s righteousness has nothing to do with Roman Catholic theology or Reformed Theology. It is not a matter of apologetics either. The righteousness that comes from God is a truth from God alone.

Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. - Rom 10

God’s Righteousness has multiple facets, it is in reference to His own character as faithful and just as well as a quality He imparts to our souls.

The “Righteousness of God” is NOT another name for Jesus or “Christ’s Righteousness,” is is not an imputed alien quality, the Bible does not talk like that and there are no such texts that state such things. That line of thought is pure invention in the mind of Luther. St Paul was never primarily concerned about his guilt before an infinitely righteous Judge, that was Luther’s concern and is read back into the text.

Two passages I would bring up are:
Rom 8: 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
If righteousness was something external and alien then this passage would not make sense. Here we see explicitly this is a quality put in our soul by the Spirit which transforms and makes our soul alive. An external imputed alien righteousness cannot do that.
(NIV) James 1: 19My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, 20for man’s anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires.

(NASB) James 1: 19This you know, my beloved brethren But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; 20for the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God.

In Greek this phrase here in James is identical to the “righteousness of God” in Paul’s Epistles. It is undeniable that this is talking about moral (and supernatural) righteousness, something IN men, not an alien quality.

 

[Contarini]

Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. - Rom 10

This is one of the main passages that I have difficulties with Roman Catholicism as being the true Christian Faith. Please give me you understanding of the above passage according to your Roman Catholic Faith. It seems you can almost substitute the word Israelites for Roman Catholics in the passage above. I believe God’s righteousness is an alien righteousness, found outside of ourselves. This righteousness provided by God is the sole basis why God declares a sinner justified and is able to permanently adopt his enemy into His faimily.

There’s no disagreement between Catholics and Protestants on the fact that we are justified by a righteousness that comes from God and not from ourselves.

The question is: does God’s righteousness cease to be God’s righteousness when He puts it within us? You seem to think that it does. Why?

Edwin

 

[MIZER]

God’s Righteousness has multiple facets, it is in reference to His own character as faithful and just as well as a quality He imparts to our souls.

The “Righteousness of God” is NOT another name for Jesus or “Christ’s Righteousness,” is is not an imputed alien quality, the Bible does not talk like that and there are no such texts that state such things. That line of thought is pure invention in the mind of Luther. St Paul was never primarily concerned about his guilt before an infinitely righteous Judge, that was Luther’s concern and is read back into the text.

Two passages I would bring up are:
Rom 8: 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
If righteousness was something external and alien then this passage would not make sense. Here we see explicitly this is a quality put in our soul by the Spirit which transforms and makes our soul alive. An external imputed alien righteousness cannot do that.
(NIV) James 1: 19My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, 20for man’s anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires.

(NASB) James 1: 19This you know, my beloved brethren But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; 20for the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God.

In Greek this phrase here in James is identical to the “righteousness of God” in Paul’s Epistles. It is undeniable that this is talking about moral (and supernatural) righteousness, something IN men, not an alien quality.

I like the way you put this. It’s very easy to understand and it makes sense. Be warned. Reformed will come back at you as if you did not answer the question and he will re-submit the question to you again.

 

[Reformed]

Reformed,

I will go to the website you posted to learn about reformed theology. Thank you.

I have already answered your question from my own lay opinion. I think the righteousness that comes from God that is required is Jesus Christ. That could be looked at in a number of different ways.

In addition, I would defer to church teaching which another poster has already included on this thread.

Other than that, I honestly don’t know what you are getting at. And unfortunately, if you will not tell me then we are at a stalemate as I do not have time to continue to play this circular game you’ve instituted.

I pray you find the answer you are looking for, but only if it’s the right one.

Thank you… .and finally we are like minded. The righteousness from above is the righteousness of Jesus Christ!

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I like the way you put this. It’s very easy to understand and it makes sense. Be warned. Reformed will come back at you as if you did not answer the question and he will re-submit the question to you again.

Is THAT why they use the phrase “always reforming”?
(Semper Reformanda)
They’ll just keep trying until they get what they want.

 

[Reformed]

Actually, I think it’s time for you to quit ignoring my previous post. I have answered your question and asked that you address my previous post multiple times. Instead you attempt to take the discussion further away by wanting to argue semantics.

You say all Christians should proclaim the Gospel for encouragement for our faiths. You disregard any questions we, Christians, provide and stay on course with your proclamation. This brings my issues of who exactly preaches a correct Gospel to the forefront. Because you state yours is correct, does not exactly make it so. St. Paul clearly warned of those who preach a different Gospel than that which was received. You have not proven to be preaching the Gospel which was received as of yet. To address the authority presents a problem for you or so it appears.

The above reasons are why you have been banned from other forums. You do not discuss, which is an exchange of theologies. You stay on track with your own “agenda”. Often, when someone directly speaks to your posts, you change subjects or go off and start another thread making the same exact arguments and using the same bait and switch tactics. I do not mean to sound offensive here, I am just stating the facts as I have observed them.

I was only banned from the other catholic site.

 

[Reformed]

I like the way you put this. It’s very easy to understand and it makes sense. Be warned. Reformed will come back at you as if you did not answer the question and he will re-submit the question to you again.

Mizer, you have the biblical answer in the righteousness of Jesus Christ which is the perfect righteousness of God. God does not grade us on a scale of righteousness. You are on a crossroads because I believe God the Holy Spirit revealed that God’s righteousness is the righteousness of Jesus Christ. As you can see, other Roman Catholics seem to disagree with your answer. The person and work of Christ is sufficient for me and you! You can never have too high of a view of the work of Christ on your behalf, to the praise of His glorious grace. Grace is free to you and me, but the grace of God that reconciles us to Him, adopt us into His family, and transforms us to the image of Christ has been merited by Jesus Christ by His perfect life and sacrifical death on our behalf.

Reformed,

I will go to the website you posted to learn about reformed theology. Thank you.

I have already answered your question from my own lay opinion. I think the righteousness that comes from God that is required is Jesus Christ…

Jesus Rejoices in the Father’s Will

21 In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. - The Holy Bible

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I was only banned from the other catholic site.

There was another website where some action was taken, maybe just locked out of certain threads. I can look into if it’s worth discussing. Seems to be since you ignore posts here.

 

[Reformed]

There was another website where some action was taken, maybe just locked out of certain threads. I can look into if it’s worth discussing. Seems to be since you ignore posts here.

Why do you want to make this a personal fight. God’s righteousness is the righteousness of Jesus Christ. There’s not much else I can say.

We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Cor 5

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Why do you want to make this a personal fight. God’s righteousness is the righteousness of Jesus Christ. There’s not much else I can say.

No I’m not trying to make it a personal fight. I am trying to have a discussion and have addressed your questions and thought you would return the courtesy, but instead you stay away from answering questions or respond with more questions.

I thought you might want to see this from the forum guidelines:

**Don’t answer a question with a question. If you don’t know the answer, say so.

Rhetorical questions may be used to introduce a new aspect of inquiry but not to evade challenges or to call into question the intelligence, education, or any other personal qualities of another poster.

It is never acceptable to question the sincerity of an individual’s beliefs.**

**Members are not allowed to be disrespectful of anyone’s faith or religion, whether it is Catholicism or not. If a member is disrespectful, he will generally be counseled first and suspended if he persists in disrespectful postings.
**

 

[Reformed]

No I’m not trying to make it a personal fight. I am trying to have a discussion and have addressed your questions and thought you would return the courtesy, but instead you stay away from answering questions or respond with more questions.

I thought you might want to see this from the forum guidelines:

Don’t answer a question with a question. If you don’t know the answer, say so.
Rhetorical questions may be used to introduce a new aspect of inquiry but not to evade challenges or to call into question the intelligence, education, or any other personal qualities of another poster.

It is never acceptable to question the sincerity of an individual’s beliefs.

**Members are not allowed to be disrespectful of anyone’s faith or religion, whether it is Catholicism or not. If a member is disrespectful, he will generally be counseled first and suspended if he persists in disrespectful postings.
**

Do you understand that we all have an option to respond to whom we want to. I find that you to be very hostile to whatever I post. I will leave you with the verse I posted above because it is the gospel in a nutshell. Christianity is about Jesus Christ and not the Roman Catholic Church.

We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Cor 5