God's righteousness

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My family and I currently attend

emeraldbible.org/

Were you planning to witness to the Protestant Pastor about Roman Catholicism…LOL?
Yes. I do email Protestant pastors to tell them why I am Catholic. In this specific case, if I end up emailing him, I will ask him how his view of “righteousness of God” (which he taught you) matches with the Scripture I provided. I will likely bring up verses like Ps 106:30-31 and others I think are needed.

I am Catholic because I strive to accept all of what the Bible says, I have looked into the issue of justification enough (including reading Protestant apologetics books on the subject) that I am convinced only the Catholic position can harmonize Scripture.
 
Yes. I do email Protestant pastors to tell them why I am Catholic. In this specific case, if I end up emailing him, I will ask him how his view of “righteousness of God” (which he taught you) matches with the Scripture I provided. I will likely bring up verses like Ps 106:30-31 and others I think are needed.

I am Catholic because I strive to accept all of what the Bible says, I have looked into the issue of justification enough (including reading Protestant apologetics books on the subject) that I am convinced only the Catholic position can harmonize Scripture.
I haven’t attended that church very long; therefore he did not teach me my understanding of the righteousness of God. I sincerely believe that God the Holy Spirit illuminated this truth to me through the Scriptures alone. My hope and righteousness is in Christ alone. 🙂 But, feel free to email Pastor Roberts.
 
I sincerely believe that God the Holy Spirit illuminated this truth to me through the Scriptures alone. .
What would you say if I told you the same thing happened to me, but that I believe Holy Spirit, through the Scriptures, told me a very different understanding of “righteousness of God.”
 
What would you say if I told you the same thing happened to me, but that I believe Holy Spirit, through the Scriptures, told me a very different understanding of “righteousness of God.”
That’s why we have Forum sites like this one. That’s why a believe in election and remnant theology.

Mark 13:22

For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
 
LOL… if you do not want to search the scriptures for yourself, you should click on above.

Acts 17:11

Now these Protestant Christians were more noble than those Roman Catholic Christians; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

Matthew 4

Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And after fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. And the tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.” But he answered, “It is written,

“‘Man shall not live by bread alone,
but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.

Hebrews 4:12

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

God never instructs us to trust in the Roman Catholic Church. He commands us to trust in His Word the Holy Bible.🙂
 
Reformed,

Why does it have to be either/or?

If my child disobeys my commands, and then says, “mommy I love you, I trust you, I have faith in you,” I’m going to tell him that obedience in youth is a part of loving, of trusting, of having faith in one’s parent. If my entire life’s work centers on creating a fortress which will save my child from the war that rages in our community, and it is my will that my child sleep in the fortress at night because he is vulnerable in sleep, then if my child refuses to sleep there out of either ignorance, or outright disobedience, I would say he does not submit to my righteousness because he will not submit to my will. As a result, he may very well find himself dead, because he didn’t truly love me, have faith in me, or trust me, as he had no love, no trust, no faith, in my creation and did not submit to my will (my righteousness), for his salvation.

You my dear separated brother, are either ignorant of the whole truth of the Gospel or you are rebelliously (childishly) disobedient to the will of God.

You said:
The Pope and Mary can’t save you. Scripture reveals that you need to submit to God’s righteousness. Faith in the Roman Catholic Church or Faith in the Pope as the vicar is not the same as faith in Christ alone.
First of all, I never said that I believed either the Pope or Mary can save me. Why do you wish to put words in my mouth? Secondly, Faith alone, is not the same as faith in Christ alone.

Scripture reveals that in order to truly submit to God’s righteousness, we must submit to the whole Gospel of Christ. Your faith alone, reflects only part of that Gospel. It is you, sir, not I, who fails to submit to God’s righteousness.

Faith alone, in Christ alone, is hardly submission to the will of God. Adherence to the false doctrine of faith alone, by following ones own interpretation of the Bible alone, is neither biblical, nor does it even begin to manifest a submission to the righteousness of God.

You deceive yourself and your family by omitting that part of the Gospel which you either do not understand or refuse to embrace.

My heart breaks for you. As always, I will keep you, and all our separated brethren, especially fallen away Catholics, particularly those in my own family, in prayer.
 
posted by Reformed in post #67:
God does not command you to put your faith in the Roman Catholic Church, but rather we are to trust in Him, and have faith in all that He reveals in** His Word** (Holy Bible).
My emphasis.

As I see it this is part of the problem protestants/fundamentalists/reformed has in distinguishing the whole truth of the Gospel, from the limited truth and outright falsehoods of the “reformers.” They insist that the Word of God is the Bible, all the while the Bible itself proclaims that the** Word of God is the Christ**. John 1:1.

This really bugs me to the point of being a pet peeve of mine because they will all say, that we (Catholic’s) love the Church more than we love Christ when the true church is said to be “the Mystical Body of Christ” (including the head as part of the body), and it is so obvious to me, that most separated Christians love the Bible, at least as much, if not more then they love Christ, and although it is the written word of God, it’s just a book. Albeit a Holy book, one Catholics venerate and love, but in it’s proper place and only in it’s one true interpretation.

Non-Catholics seem to lift the Bible to the equivalent of the person of Christ by continually insisting that “it is the very Word of God!!!” And they self righteously lift their own interpretation (opinion) above Christ everytime they say, “you (Catholics) are not following God’s Word.”

They refuse to admit that what they are really saying is, “you are not following my fallible, personal interpretation of God’s written word alone.” :eek:

So nice to be able to vent. 😃
 
Reformed:

You said:
God never instructs us to trust in the Roman Catholic Church. He commands us to trust in His Word the Holy Bible.
And yet you trust in the Roman Catholic Church** for** the “Word,” the Holy Bible.

Do you not know that it was the successors of Saint Peter and the Apostles who told us, infallibly, what writings of the time, were inspired? Where do you think His “Word” came from? Did it drop from the sky and fly onto your living room shelf?

This statement of yours illustrates your lack of knowledge of “His Word.” Isn’t there a verse that says something to the effect that lack of knowledge of the Bible is the same as lack of knowledge of Christ? If you don’t know that the Bible does, in fact, instruct us to trust the Church Christ said he would Build, when he said, among other things, “hear the church,” and if you do not know that the Bible does, in fact, instruct us to trust that same Church which Saint Paul said was the pillar and ground of truth, when it tells us that Jesus said to Peter, among other things, “feed my lambs, tend my sheep,” if you do not know that that church is The Roman Catholic Church today, then why should we trust you, when you say, to us, “you are wrong, this is what Romans 10 means!”?

Who died and made you the Vicar of Christ? Hmmmm?
 
The Holy Bible translated by Reformed:
Acts 17:11
Now these Protestant Christians were more noble than those Roman Catholic Christians; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.
How dare you change the very “Word” of God. :mad: :mad: :mad:

You, no doubt, misinterpret this verse as well, so allow me to enlighten you. The Bereans were said to be of more noble character precisely because they were an intellectually honest people. Not a trait we see very often among the ranks of informed schismatics, unfortunately, but I digress…

“received the word” does not mean that they received the Bible. It does not mean that they learned the truth of the Good News by reading their personal copy of the Torah and discerning for themselves it’s meaning. What “received the word” means is that they HEARD the Good News being proclaimed by the teachers, the Disciples who where commissioned (ordained) by Christ himself to teach the Word (Christ/Gospel) and they (the Bereans, not rebellious protesters) went to the Scriptures (OT, NT not written yet) to see if what they had HEARD was correct.

This is what we see in Catholicism today. We hear the Good News as it is taught by the men who Christ has ordained to teach, the successors of the Apostles, then we may check the written word to see that we understand what we have heard and we can check it’s authenticity.

The Bereans where an intellectually honest (noble) people. They didn’t blindly follow some errant preacher man’s false rendering of the Bible and go build their own churches based on their own interpretation of one or two or three verses from the New Testament.
 
Reformed,

Suppose you wipe the scales from your eyes and re-read this:
Mark 13:22
For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
Remember that the church you seek to reform in the 21st century did not exist until the 16th century.

Remember that in the 16th century, certain men (not Christ, ie: false christs) created new churches in their failed attempt to “reform” the, One, existing Church. Open your eyes man. Read the “Word.” See the truth that is right in front of you.

Main Entry: 1false
Pronunciation: \ˈfȯls\
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): fals·er; fals·est
Etymology: Middle English fals, faus, from Anglo-French & Latin; Anglo-French, from Latin falsus, from past participle of fallere to deceive
Date: 12th century
1: not genuine
2 a:** intentionally untrue** b: adjusted or made so as to deceive c: intended or tending to mislead
3: not true
4 a:** not faithful or loyal **: treacherous b: lacking naturalness or sincerity
5 a: **not essential or permanent **—used of parts of a structure that are temporary or supplemental b: fitting over a main part to strengthen it, to protect it, or to disguise its appearance
6: inaccurate in pitch
7 a: based on mistaken ideas b: inconsistent with the facts
8: threateningly sudden or deceptive <don’t make any false moves>
**synonyms see faithless **
 
The Church and the Faith existed prior to the Bible and all three came from God. All three were derived through the New Covenant. God is above all He has created, including the Church, the Faith and the Bible. Catholics have an appreciation of all three because they all lead to God.

Even under the old covenant, the Israelites had faith, the Temple and scriptures, again all given by God. How many denominations existed under the old covenant?

Christ created the Church and instituted a new convenant. Christ did not come to destroy the old but to fulfill.

**Mat 5:17 Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled. **

St. Paul used similar words when he addressed the Romans.

**Rom 3:31 Do we then, destroy the law through faith? God forbid! But we establish the law. **

Where did St. Paul receive his instructions from Christ? He wasn’t an eyewitness and he wasn’t present at the Lord’s supper.

Did he receive it from the Bible? The New Testament had not yet been written! St. Paul received his instructions from the Church Christ created. St. Paul considered receiving from the Church the same as receiving from the Lord.

**1Co 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread, **

Think about St. Paul’s conversion.

**Act 26:14 And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It hurts you to kick against the goads.’
Act 26:15 And I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And the Lord said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. **

When St. Paul told the Philippians about his persecution, he said “Church”. Again, it appears St. Paul makes an inseparable connection between Jesus and the Church He created.

**Php 3:4 Though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If any other man thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more:
Php 3:5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law a Pharisee,
Php 3:6 as to zeal a persecutor of the church, as to righteousness under the law blameless.
Php 3:7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
Php 3:8 Indeed I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as refuse, in order that I may gain Christ
Php 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, based on law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith;
Php 3:10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,
Php 3:11 that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. **

Being accused of idolizing the Church Christ created is ironic, coming from someone who admittedly ignores that Church based on his private interpretation of the Bible.

God gave us the faith, the Church and the Bible. Some Protestants have taken two of the three and appears to be idolizing one, not only to strengthen the faith but to try and talk us into disregarding the other.

The same Protestants try and disregard the Church an institution. Isn’t Christ creating the Church the same as instituting the Church? Is is not right to consider what Christ instituted, an institution?

Do I love His Church? YES! Do I love scriptures? YES! Do I love my faith? YES! I love all things given us by Christ, but none above He who gave them to us.
 
Reformed,

Suppose you wipe the scales from your eyes and re-read this:

Remember that the church you seek to reform in the 21st century did not exist until the 16th century.

Remember that in the 16th century, certain men (not Christ, ie: false christs) created new churches in their failed attempt to “reform” the, One, existing Church. Open your eyes man. Read the “Word.” See the truth that is right in front of you.
I believe in remnant theology. Therefore, God’s people were chosen before the foundation of the world, and did not start 500 years ago. It traces back to Abraham and even farther back then that. The gospel was foretold at the fall of mankind in the garden. The remnant chosen by grace can be found in each generation of redemptive history. The Roman Catholic Church is new as compared to the remnant which is much much older. 🙂 There are some elect Catholics who makeup part of the remnant of God too (invisible church). I believe the Protestant Reformers were the remnant of God who were called out of the Roman Catholic Church. I also believe that there is only one people of God, with much continuity between the OT and NT. The Old Testament Saints were saved by Christ too, and are united to Him.

I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. - Rom 11

Micah 7:18

God’s Steadfast Love and Compassion

Who is a God like you, pardoning iniquity
and passing over transgression
for the remnant of his inheritance?
He does not retain his anger forever,
because he delights in steadfast love.

Romans 9

God’s Sovereign Choice

I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
 
Would you please list the other ways that Protestants and Orthodox Christians and Protestants are connected?
I think the rejection of the Catholic version of apostolic succession is a major one, don’t you? We also share in Christ and Him crucified for sinners.
 
I think the rejection of the Catholic version of apostolic succession is a major one, don’t you? We also share in Christ and Him crucified for sinners.
Not as major as you might think. There are hopes, prayers and communications for the reunification.

They also reject many teachings of Protestantism and are much more in line with Catholic beliefs; perpetual virginity, real presence in the Eucharist, communion of saints, infant baptism, sola scriptura, and much more.

Whether they are erroneous in their separtion or not, they also believe in the authority of the Church over the matters of faith and morals.
 
Not as major as you might think. There are hopes, prayers and communications for the reunification.

They also reject many teachings of Protestantism and are much more in line with Catholic beliefs; perpetual virginity, real presence in the Eucharist, communion of saints, infant baptism, sola scriptura, and much more.

Whether they are erroneous in their separtion or not, they also believe in the authority of the Church over the matters of faith and morals.
I’m just having a good time with you. So, who’s church has final authority, the east or the west? 🙂
 
I’m just having a good time with you. So, who’s church has final authority, the east or the west? 🙂
As a Catholic, I feel you know which one I believe is the correct Church. It’s certainly not an invisible Church.

I noticed you overlooked some points I brought up on the Church, Bible and Faith. Do you not have any thoughts on that?
 
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