God's righteousness

[Reformed]

As a Catholic, I feel you know which one I believe is the correct Church. It’s certainly not an invisible Church.

I noticed you overlooked some points I brought up on the Church, Bible and Faith. Do you not have any thoughts on that?

As a Christian in the 21st century, I find that all Christians have a struggle with religious affections of our heart. Maybe we just have more distractions than past generations. I think all Christians can have a tendency to put our churches in front of Christ, including Roman Catholics. Please understand we all have our presuppositions. We all know and see in part. A Protestant does not see the church in the same way that you do. Therefore, you cannot expect a Protestant to see what you might see. I think it is safe to put a high emphasis in Christ as supreme in all things, and proclaim the sufficiency of Christ to believers and unbelievers alike. Nobody can know who are the elect of God. I do believe some Roman Catholics makeup part of the elect, and are forever united to Christ, even though Roman Catholic theology does not allow such a confidence and assurance.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

As a Christian in the 21st century, I find that all Christians have a struggle with religious affections of our heart. Maybe we just have more distractions than past generations.

Agreed.

I think all Christians can have a tendency to put our churches in front of Christ, including Roman Catholics. Please understand we all have our presuppositions. We all know and see in part.

So far your presupposition has been that Catholics put the Church ahead of Christ, which is incorrect. You have maintained that through our objections and explanations of the order, as evident in your last sentence above. It is what you cannot see that is important, as that is what is in our hearts, Christ alone can see that.

A Protestant does not see the church in the same way that you do. Therefore, you cannot expect a Protestant to see what you might see. I think it is safe to put a high emphasis in Christ as supreme in all things, and proclaim the sufficiency of Christ to believers and unbelievers alike. Nobody can know who are the elect of God.

Christ is a sufficiency if one does not reject the fullness of His teachings. While we believe, not everyone can understand His fullness, we have hope those who do not understand are not condemned. That is not saying we can know who will receive salvation and who will not.

I do believe some Roman Catholics makeup part of the elect, and are forever united to Christ, even though Roman Catholic theology does not allow such a confidence and assurance.

Your statement on Catholic theology does not make our theology incorrect as it is derived from your personal interpretation forming your own theology.

With what I have stated above, I want to add that I would appreciate it if you would quit telling us what you think we believe. Asking what we believe will give you more truth over your presuppositions.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

LOL… if you do not want to search the scriptures for yourself, you should click on above.

Acts 17:11

Now these Protestant Christians were more noble than those Roman Catholic Christians; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

Matthew 4

Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And after fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. And the tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.” But he answered, “It is written,

“‘Man shall not live by bread alone,
but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.

Hebrews 4:12

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

God never instructs us to trust in the Roman Catholic Church. He commands us to trust in His Word the Holy Bible.

You don’t get it. I am the one trusting and searching the Scriptures here, you are not. I gave of post using Scripture of how I understand God’s Righteousness and you have not even responded.You are going along as if I never said anything and continuing to act as if Catholics are ignoring Scripture when you wont interact with what I said.

This truly is about who is really following the Bible, and until you interact with my post it is very clear that Protestants (or at least yourself) are not so much interested in Scripture as in defending Sola Fide at all costs.

Do you ever get any response?

Yes, not for all my emails, but I do get some response. The responses range from downplaying the issue all the way up to some decent interaction. That said, they don’t often directly answer my simple questions and cut the discussion short.
I have learned from other Catholics that you should never enter into discussions with the idea you will convert the person on the spot, you will be sadly disappointed every time and waste a lot of time and energy. Rather, the discussion is to plant seeds that, God Willing, will take root down the road.

As you can see with certain Protestants in this thread (especially ones who used to be Catholic), they came in here with the idea Catholics were totally ignorant and don’t really care about Scripture. They are stunned to find not only do Catholics base their claims off of Scripture, but that their Protestant “interpretations” were nothing but cherry picking passages and inserting foreign concepts into the text. And, as you can see, the discussion here was never intended to be serious and since getting their cage rattled the discussion has been to shift away from the main topic onto empty accusations of not following Scripture…all to defend and salvage Sola Fide at all costs.

 

[SyCarl]

God’s Righteousness has multiple facets, it is in reference to His own character as faithful and just as well as a quality He imparts to our souls.

The “Righteousness of God” is NOT another name for Jesus or “Christ’s Righteousness,” is is not an imputed alien quality, the Bible does not talk like that and there are no such texts that state such things. That line of thought is pure invention in the mind of Luther. St Paul was never primarily concerned about his guilt before an infinitely righteous Judge, that was Luther’s concern and is read back into the text.

Two passages I would bring up are:
Rom 8: 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
If righteousness was something external and alien then this passage would not make sense. Here we see explicitly this is a quality put in our soul by the Spirit which transforms and makes our soul alive. An external imputed alien righteousness cannot do that.
(NIV) James 1: 19My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, 20for man’s anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires.

(NASB) James 1: 19This you know, my beloved brethren But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; 20for the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God.

In Greek this phrase here in James is identical to the “righteousness of God” in Paul’s Epistles. It is undeniable that this is talking about moral (and supernatural) righteousness, something IN men, not an alien quality.

You seem to misunderstand the Protestant position. Calvin, for example, does not deny that through the infusion of the Holy Spirit in regeneration we receive a new righteous nature. The difference is that complete righteousness is not achieved in this life time, and thus being completely righteous is by imputation.

Renovation is afterwards manifested by the fruits produced by it—viz. justice, judgment, and mercy. Since it were not sufficient duly to perform such acts, were not the mind and heart previously endued with sentiments of justice, judgment, and mercy this is done when the Holy Spirit, instilling his holiness into our souls, so inspired them with new thoughts and affections, that they may justly be regarded as new.

Both of these we obtain by union with Christ. For if we have true fellowship in his death, our old man is crucified by his power, and the body of sin becomes dead, so that the corruption of our original nature is never again in full vigor. If we are partakers in his resurrection, we are raised up by means of it to newness of life, which conforms us to the righteousness of God. In one word, then, by repentance I understand regeneration,. the only aim of which is to form in us anew the image of God, which was sullied, and all but effaced by the transgression of Adam…Accordingly through the blessing of Christ we are renewed by that regeneration into the righteousness of God from which we had fallen through Adam, the Lord being pleased in this manner to restore the integrity of all whom he appoints to the inheritance of life. This renewal, indeed, is not accomplished in a moment, a day, or a year, but by uninterrupted, sometimes even by slow progress God abolishes the remains of carnal corruption in his elect, cleanses them from pollution, and consecrates them as his temples, restoring all their inclinations to real purity, so that during their whole lives they may practice repentance, and know that death is the only termination to this warfare…It is not denied that there is room for improvement; but what I maintain is, that the nearer any one approaches in resemblance to God, the more does the image of God appear in him. That believers may attain to it, God assigns repentance as the goal towards which they must keep running during the whole course of their lives.

By regeneration the children of God are delivered from the bondage of sin, but not as if they had already obtained full possession of freedom, and no longer felt any annoyance from the flesh.

In regenerating his people God indeed accomplishes this much for them; he destroys the dominion of sin, by supplying the agency of the Spirit, which enables them to come off victorious from the contest. Sin, however, though it ceases to reign, ceases not to dwell in them. Accordingly, though we say that the old man is crucified, and the law of sin is abolished in the children of God, the remains of sin survive, not to have dominion, but to humble them under a consciousness of their infirmity. We admit that these remains, just as if they had no existence, are not imputed, but we, at the same time, contend that it is owing to the mercy of God that the saints are not charged with the guilt which would otherwise make them sinners before God.

Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 3.
ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.v.iv.html

 

[Catholic_Dude]

You seem to misunderstand the Protestant position. Calvin, for example, does not deny that through the infusion of the Holy Spirit in regeneration we receive a new righteous nature. The difference is that complete righteousness is not achieved in this life time, and thus being completely righteous is by imputation.

Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 3.
ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.v.iv.html

That’s just it though, you and Protestantism have invented a distinction where none exists, there is no such thing an alien righteousness imputed, and especially when “righteousness of God” is equated with “Christ” or “Christ’s Righteousness.”
YOU want to admit a actual inner righteousness via the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, well and good…BUT that only hurts your claims for an alien imputed righteousness.
An imputed righteousness is only necessary for something that is not actually righteous, to make something actually righteous renders imputation superfluous.

I don’t misunderstand the Protestant position on justification, I understand it better than most Protestants. And I try hard to not misrepresent it (including leaving out the second phase of Sanctification). And I’m dealing with the classical Protestant position as stated in the historical Protestant Confessions (Lutheranism-Calvinism), not according to what offshoots of those denominations claim.

The term “righteousness of God” being a gas that floats from the judge across the courtroom and lands on top of the defendant is an invention of Luther, that is not how Scripture uses or intends that term to be taken.

complete righteousness is not achieved in this life time

Here is another issue I cannot get a straight answer to from Protestants, if it is not complete in this lifetime then when?
The Bible is clear, “nothing impure will enter Heaven,” so when is complete righteousness achieved if “not in this life time”? (Remember, purgatory is already taken by Catholics).

 

[SyCarl]

Here is another issue I cannot get a straight answer to from Protestants, if it is not complete in this lifetime then when?
The Bible is clear, “nothing impure will enter Heaven,” so when is complete righteousness achieved if “not in this life time”? (Remember, purgatory is already taken by Catholics).

God can purify in an instant at death. If that is what you mean by purgatory, fine. However, I understand that purgatory also includes temporal punishment for sins of which the eternal punishment is remitted. That is something different.

 

[Reformed]

That’s just it though, you and Protestantism have invented a distinction where none exists, there is no such thing an alien righteousness imputed, and especially when “righteousness of God” is equated with “Christ” or “Christ’s Righteousness.”
YOU want to admit a actual inner righteousness via the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, well and good…BUT that only hurts your claims for an alien imputed righteousness.
An imputed righteousness is only necessary for something that is not actually righteous, to make something actually righteous renders imputation superfluous.

I don’t misunderstand the Protestant position on justification, I understand it better than most Protestants. And I try hard to not misrepresent it (including leaving out the second phase of Sanctification). And I’m dealing with the classical Protestant position as stated in the historical Protestant Confessions (Lutheranism-Calvinism), not according to what offshoots of those denominations claim.

The term “righteousness of God” being a gas that floats from the judge across the courtroom and lands on top of the defendant is an invention of Luther, that is not how Scripture uses or intends that term to be taken.

Here is another issue I cannot get a straight answer to from Protestants, if it is not complete in this lifetime then when?
The Bible is clear, “nothing impure will enter Heaven,” so when is complete righteousness achieved if “not in this life time”? (Remember, purgatory is already taken by Catholics).

Imputation is in the Old and New Testament. How do you understand Adam’s original sin, and your guilt through Adam? Adam is a pattern of the one to come (2nd Adam).

Romans 4:6
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Romans 4:8
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Romans 4:11
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Romans 4:22
And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Romans 4:23
Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

Romans 4:24
But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Romans 5:13
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

James 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

 

[MIZER]

Reformed posted:

I believe in remnant theology. Therefore, God’s people were chosen before the foundation of the world, and did not start 500 years ago.

Just because you believe something does not make it so. If you believe it does then you have a Messiah complex and more problems than I realized at first.

The fact is, the protestant ideologies came into existence as a philosophy of faith, a scant 500 years ago. Your “reformed” philosophies, as a whole, are younger still, by hundreds of years.

I’m confused because you are not claiming here that the people God chose before the foundation of the world shared your beliefs, so…I don’t get it.

 

[Reformed]

Reformed posted:

Just because you believe something does not make it so. If you believe it does then you have a Messiah complex and more problems than I realized at first.

The fact is, the protestant ideologies came into existence as a philosophy of faith, a scant 500 years ago. Your “reformed” philosophies, as a whole, are younger still, by hundreds of years.

I’m confused because you are not claiming here that the people God chose before the foundation of the world shared your beliefs, so…I don’t get it.

How do you know Roman Catholicism doesn’t believe in Remnant Theology? There are ony two groups of humanity, the old humanity united to Adam, and the new humanity united to Christ. Do you disagree with that statement?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Imputation is in the Old and New Testament. How do you understand Adam’s original sin, and your guilt through Adam? Adam is a pattern of the one to come (2nd Adam).

Romans 4:6
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Romans 4:8
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Romans 4:11
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Romans 4:22
And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Romans 4:23
Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

Romans 4:24
But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Romans 5:13
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

James 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

The term for “impute” in Greek is LOGIZOMAI, that is the term which is TRANSLATED as “impute” but it does not mean what you think. Here are some places where logizomai appears in the NT:Bible: Rom 3: 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Rom 6: 11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Rom 8: 18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
It does NOT mean to impute an alien status to someone. Logizomai means, in the great majority of the times it occurrs in the NT, to consider what the object ACTUALLY IS. Notice that is how it is used above. So when God ‘reckons/imputes/counts’ someone as righteous that means they ACTUALLY ARE, when sin is NOT imputed that means He does not reckon them to be a sinner because they are NO LONGER ACTUALY sinful.

 

[Reformed]

The term for “impute” in Greek is LOGIZOMAI, that is the term which is TRANSLATED as “impute” but it does not mean what you think. Here are some places where logizomai appears in the NT:Bible: Rom 3: 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Rom 6: 11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Rom 8: 18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
It does NOT mean to impute an alien status to someone. Logizomai means, in the great majority of the times it occurrs in the NT, to consider what the object ACTUALLY IS. Notice that is how it is used above. So when God ‘reckons/imputes/counts’ someone as righteous that means they ACTUALLY ARE, when sin is NOT imputed that means He does not reckon them to be a sinner because they are NO LONGER ACTUALY sinful.

Please answer my question about your guilt in Adam.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Please answer my question about your guilt in Adam.

The Catholic view is best summarized in:
Rom 5: 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Here we see the sin of Adam caused the righteousness in himself to be lost as well as all men to lose the righteousness in them, making all men unrighteous, that is Original Sin in its essence. Jesus’ merits causes that righteousness to be restored making us righteous again.

 

[Reformed]

The Catholic view is best summarized in:
Rom 5: 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Here we see the sin of Adam caused the righteousness in himself to be lost as well as all men to lose the righteousness in them, making all men unrighteous, that is Original Sin in its essence. Jesus’ merits causes that righteousness to be restored making us righteous again.

But the sin of Adam was imputed to your account as Adam as your representative. The 2nd Adam is the representative for those who are united to Him receiving His perfect righteousness through the same imputation as the first Adam.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

But the sin of Adam was imputed to your account as Adam as your representative.

Not quite. The damage and ramifications Abraham’s fall caused were really passed on, this was not an imputed unrighteousness charged to someone who in fact is not unrighteous. Think of it as if a father left an astronomical debt for his children to pay off, or a mother who used drugs and passed on health problems to her children. Those are real effects, not imputed. That is how Original Sin is, we are born stripped of the grace in our souls, born without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That makes us actually unrighteous by definition.

The 2nd Adam is the representative for those who are united to Him receiving His perfect righteousness through the same imputation as the first Adam.

FLATLY UNBIBLICAL. You can repeat yourself till you are blue in the face, like a broken record, but nobody is going to be fooled by this. Around here we follow the BIBLE and if you don’t want to believe what the Bible says there isnt much we can do. You can keep ignoring the Catholic posts around here, but seekers and other Protestants are only going to be driven further towards the Catholic end where clear and honest answers are given.

 

[Reformed]

Not quite. The damage and ramifications Abraham’s fall caused were really passed on, this was not an imputed unrighteousness charged to someone who in fact is not unrighteous. Think of it as if a father left an astronomical debt for his children to pay off, or a mother who used drugs and passed on health problems to her children. Those are real effects, not imputed. That is how Original Sin is, we are born stripped of the grace in our souls, born without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That makes us actually unrighteous by definition.

FLATLY UNBIBLICAL. You can repeat yourself till you are blue in the face, like a broken record, but nobody is going to be fooled by this. Around here we follow the BIBLE and if you don’t want to believe what the Bible says there isnt much we can do. You can keep ignoring the Catholic posts around here, but seekers and other Protestants are only going to be driven further towards the Catholic end where clear and honest answers are given.

Romans 5

Death in Adam, Life in Christ
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

18 Therefore, as one trespass [5] led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness [6] leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Cor 15

20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God [3] has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

Do have an idea why Paul writes “in Christ”?

1 Corinthians 15:31
I protest, brothers, by my pride in you, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die every day!

1 Corinthians 16:24
My love be with you all in Christ Jesus. Amen.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

 

[AnyoneAnybody]

The scene of our salvation takes place in a coutroom where after we stand convicted as guilty criminals, Jesus steps forward to take our punishment by His death. God the judge in this courtroom imputes to us salvation by declaring our debts forgiven.

…But in a sudden turn of events, when He pronounces that we are righteous His word does not come back void. God the judge steps forward from around the bench as God the Father and right there at that moment adopts us. When he adopts us more than a legal decree is made… We truly become His sons and daughters as grace is infused into our being. We become truly holy at that moment because God, our Father, is that powerful.