God's Soldiers Quote

[FrDavid96]

When I say you are blessed to suffer for Christ’s sake – that is a Christian reaction to suffering.

You are still confusing suffering itself with the reaction-to it–which is completely wrong.

Suffering is a result of Original Sin. It does not come from God. It is the exact opposite of a blessing. It is a curse.

Overcoming suffering is a gift from God. Being freed from suffering (eg healing) is a gift from God.

 

[DebChris]

You are falsely characterizing what I am saying—greatly so.

Suffering is not a blessing from God. It is a consequence of Original Sin, which is one of the most basic and fundamental beliefs of the Christian faith. I suggest you read what the Catechism has to say and what the Church teaches elsewhere (such as the encyclicals of St John Paul II) about suffering.

Your ignorance of the subject is no excuse for you to insinuate that I am some kind of imposter priest. In fact, it shows that since you have nothing legitimate to say about what I’ve written, you’ll resort to personal attacks instead.

The suffering of the martyrs, such as St Maximillian Kolbe, was not a blessing given to them by God, it is instead a consequence of a fallen world, a result of the sin of others (ie the Nazis).

God did not send St Maximillian to the gas chamber, the Nazis did that!

God accepted the saint’s suffering. He did not impose it.

You have a very perverted and twisted notion of God if you think that He imposes suffering as a blessing.

You are failing to make an essential distinction:
**
You are confusing the fact that suffering may result in blessing with the perverted notion that suffering itself is a blessing.** The teaching of the Church is quite clear on this, as I’ve been saying all along. It is a consequence of Original Sin. God frees us from suffering, and it is the exact opposite of a blessing.

There is suffering in the world.
The Greeks wrote plays about it. “Woe is me! Woe is me!”
They expressed a helpless attitude as the gods played with them.

That is not the God in whom we believe. Yes, our Lord did say that you cannot be my disciple without picking up your cross. “Follow after me.” He set an example. On the other side of the cross is the Resurrection.
We are not expected to be masochistic sufferers.

Again using the example of Maximilian Kolbe:
Somebody escaped from camp, and a result punishment was to be meted out.
Kolbe was prepared to take the place of the prisoner the Nazis had selected.
The Nazis had a certain expectation based on experience from others who had undergone the same punishment.
Instead, Maximilian Kolbe encouraged those who had been selected with him. That’s where the witness comes in.

There are those who preach a health and welfare gospel. That is not what the Catholic Church teaches. We do accept the healing charism of many saints throughout the Church’s history, recognizing that Christ was in the midst of healing somebody, on the way to heal somebody, or had just come from healing somebody.

St. Paul says “in weakness Power reaches perfection.” The illness I have may allow me to develop more empathy for others. It may mean that I recognize that much more my total dependence on God. “Blessed are the poor in Spirit.” I don’t relish suffering in myself nor do I want it for others. That way of thinking brings as much poor comfort as Job’s comforters telling a sick person lack of faith is why he isn’t well.

I’m sure not going to sit around feeling sorry for myself. Like an athlete, I’m going to do what I can to get back in the game.

 

[reggieM]

… you have nothing legitimate to say about what I’ve written …

I’m sorry you feel that way.
I guess we’ll just have to disagree.
I appreciate hearing your opinions though. They are certainly interesting.

 

[FrDavid96]

There is suffering in the world.
…

Yes, and that suffering is a result of Original Sin.

I am not advocating a “health and welfare gospel” as you are implying.

I am advocating the Good News of Christ, who came to heal and to alleviate suffering caused by sin.

I don’t relish suffering in myself nor do I want it for others.

Nor do I.

Instead, I pray daily that you might be delivered from that suffering. I don’t know you individually, but in my general prayers, as I pray for all the afflicted, know that I am praying for you and the whole Church is praying for you.

 

[FrDavid96]

I’m sorry you feel that way.
I guess we’ll just have to disagree.
I appreciate hearing your opinions though. They are certainly interesting.

I am extremely sorry that you feel that way.

Your misunderstanding of suffering and your failure to see it for what it is–a consequence of Original Sin and the opposite of a blessing from God disturbs me very much.

I am sorry that you disagree with the Christian understanding of Original Sin and its consequences.

As a priest and a pastor of souls, it troubles me that someone who identifies as a Catholic thinks that suffering is a blessing given by God; that you believe in a God Who hands His sons snakes when they ask for fish.

I have tried to explain to you the error of what you’ve been writing.

I have tried as best I can to explain to you the difference between the evil of suffering on the one hand and the good of the Christian response to that suffering on the other hand. You refuse to see that.

Alas, my efforts have fallen upon deaf ears.

 

[DebChris]

Yes, and that suffering is a result of Original Sin.

I am not advocating a “health and welfare gospel” as you are implying.

I am advocating the Good News of Christ, who came to heal and to alleviate suffering caused by sin.

Nor do I.

Instead, I pray daily that you might be delivered from that suffering. I don’t know you individually, but in my general prayers, as I pray for all the afflicted, know that I am praying for you and the whole Church is praying for you.

I did not imply that you advocate a “health and wealth” gospel. I think that I posted earlier that praying for perpetual health of mind and body is part of Catholic prayers, noting the ending prayer of the Loretta Litany.
I never pray “if you will” when praying for healing. Rather I pray “according to God’s will.”
I don’t doubt God’s willingness to heal His people.

Being “wounded” does not take away my ability to used by God. The wounded healer is very much an idea taught within the Catholic Church.
What I was trying to say is that neither the “health and wealth” gossip nor the idea that I must suffer for Christ is Catholic teaching, in the sense that I must bemoan my fate.
I sacrifice certain things by choice. I love because God first loved me, and in loving I make choices that the world might not understand. I am satisfied with less, so that another might have enough. That is not suffering.
I might lose family and friends for the sake of the Cross. How often has this happened throughout history? For the Greater Glory of God portrays the example in Mexico when Catholicism was outlawed.
As Catholics and Christians we know that the battle is already won. A soldier stays prepared never knowing when the call may come. Without God I am vulnerable and weak. St. Paul says to put on the full armor.

 

[FrDavid96]

…

Being “wounded” does not take away my ability to used by God. The wounded healer is very much an idea taught within the Catholic Church. …

And that’s precisely the point—the right understanding of suffering.

We are wounded as a result of Original Sin—without that (or before that, depending on how one phrases things) our bodies would be perfect and there would be no such things as disease or injury or hunger or poverty or injustice. These things exist not because some perverted notion of god “blesses” us with them but because sin has entered the world.

As St John Paul II reminds us over and over again in so much of his writings, suffering is an evil which exists only as a result of that Original Sin.

God blesses us with virtues to overcome suffering, and the evils which cause it, in ourselves and in others—as you just said, to be healers, and in so many different ways. That is the true blessing.

If suffering were a blessing, then God would be commanding us to go forth into the world and spread suffering to others. But we know that’s not the God in which we place all our hope. Instead, that God commands us to go forth and heal the sick, feed the poor, comfort the aflicted, etc. etc. which are all means of healing suffering, quite the opposite of inflicting it.

 

[FrDavid96]

To understand the Catholic beliefs about suffering a good read is

APOSTOLIC LETTER
SALVIFICI DOLORIS
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
JOHN PAUL II

1. As we see from the examples quoted, we find in Sacred Scripture an extensive list of variously painful situations for man. This varied list certainly does not exhaust all that has been said and constantly repeated on the theme of suffering by the book of the history of man (this is rather an “unwritten book”), and even more by the book of the history of humanity, read through the history of every human individual.

It can be said that man suffers whenever he experiences any kind of evil. In the vocabulary of the Old Testament, suffering and evil are identified with each other. In fact, that vocabulary did not have a specific word to indicate “suffering”. Thus it defined as " evil" everything that was suffering(22). Only the Greek language, and together with it the New Testament (and the Greek translations of the Old Testament), use the verb * = “I am affected by … I experience a feeling, I suffer”; and, thanks to this verb, suffering is no longer directly identifiable with (objective) evil, but expresses a situation in which man experiences evil and in doing so becomes the subject of suffering. Suffering has indeed both a subjective and a passive character (from “patior”). Even when man brings suffering on himself, when he is its cause, this suffering remains something passive in its metaphysical essence.

This does not however mean that suffering in the psychological sense is not marked by a specific “activity”. This is in fact that multiple and subjectively differentiated “activity” of pain, sadness, disappointment, discouragement or even despair, according to the intensity of the suffering subject and his or her specific sensitivity. In the midst of what constitutes the psychological form of suffering there is always an experience of evil, which causes the individual to suffer.

Thus the reality of suffering prompts the question about the essence of evil: what is evil?

This questions seems, in a certain sense, inseparable from the theme of suffering. The Christian response to it is different, for example, from the one given by certain cultural and religious traditions which hold that existence is an evil from which one needs to be liberated. Christianity proclaims the essential good of existence and the good of that which exists, acknowledges the goodness of the Creator and proclaims the good of creatures. Man suffers on account of evil, which is a certain lack, limitation or distortion of good. We could say that man suffers because of a good in which he does not share, from which in a certain sense he is cut off, or of which he has deprived himself. He particularly suffers when he a ought"—in the normal order of things—to have a share in this good and does not have it.

Thus, in the Christian view, the reality of suffering is explained through evil, which always, in some way, refers to a good.

w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/apost_letters/1984/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_11021984_salvifici-doloris.html

I would like to point out that we are reminded that suffering and evil are identified with each other. Something cannot be both an evil and a blessing from God at the same time. They are completely opposed to each other.

 

[reggieM]

Something cannot be both an evil and a blessing from God at the same time.

They are completely opposed to each other.

Could you provide a quote from Catholic teaching that states that suffering cannot be a blessing? And I mean, explicitly - not an interpretation of a passage that states something different.

 

[FrDavid96]

Could you provide a quote from Catholic teaching that states that suffering cannot be a blessing? And I mean, explicitly - not an interpretation of a passage that states something different.

Of course (in a manner of speaking)

Evil is the opposite of good. I hardly think that’s something I need to prove.

I highlighted where John Paul II says at least 3 times that suffering is an evil.

Since suffering is an evil (read John Paul II) it cannot at the same time be a blessing, since a blessing is a “good.”

As I keep trying to explain:

It is not the suffering itself that is a blessing. Instead, it is how one reacts to the suffering that can be a blessing.

Please read the Apostolic Letter of St John Paul II.

If you bother to do that, you’ll realize that I am simply repeating the same thing JPII is saying. I’m merely condensing it.

 

[FrDavid96]

Could you provide a quote from Catholic teaching that states that suffering cannot be a blessing? And I mean, explicitly - not an interpretation of a passage that states something different.

This kind of question is what we call in philosophy “raising the bar.” It means that one asks a question that is so very specific that it cannot be answered.

Take someone who says “the moon is made of cheddar cheese”

Someone else says “no, it’s not. It’s made of rocks.”

Response: “prove that it’s not made of cheddar cheese”

“I can prove that it’s made of rocks. Here’s a list of those rocks from NASA”

“That’s not good enough. I told you to prove that the moon is not made of cheddar cheese. Show me the exact statement by NASA scientists that says the moon is not made of cheddar cheese”

“Ok. Here’s a quote from NASA that says the moon is not made of cheese.”

“That’s not what I asked. I want a specific quote from NASA that says the moon is not made of cheddar cheese.”

“There’s no such thing as a quote from NASA that says that”

“Well then, you’re unable to prove that the moon is not made of cheddar cheese, therefore it must be made of cheddar cheese.”

You’re doing the same thing.

I am showing quotes from John Paul II (whom we can all agree is an expert on Catholic teaching) that shows that suffering is an evil.

You say that’s not good enough. I have to prove not just that it “is an evil” but that it “is not a blessing.”

I’ve shown quite clearly that John Paul equates suffering with evil.

There’s no point in asking me to prove that evil is the opposite of good.

 

[DebChris]

Of course (in a manner of speaking)

Evil is the opposite of good. I hardly think that’s something I need to prove.

I highlighted where John Paul II says at least 3 times that suffering is an evil.

Since suffering is an evil (read John Paul II) it cannot at the same time be a blessing, since a blessing is a “good.”

As I keep trying to explain:

It is not the suffering itself that is a blessing. Instead, it is how one reacts to the suffering that can be a blessing.

Please read the Apostolic Letter of St John Paul II.

If you bother to do that, you’ll realize that I am simply repeating the same thing JPII is saying. I’m merely condensing it.

Following up on this.

What people notice regarding suffering is my response or reaction.
Do I get angry and curse everybody and everything on Facebook?
I’m not talking about anger as an emotion. Emotions are neutral, and repressed anger leads to depression. That’s not healthy, or denying asking why.
I not talking about stuffing it.

There has been many tragic events in the news lately. In explaining these events, Mr. Rogers said, “Look for the helpers.” Although a person may be personally touched by what is happening around him, he chooses to help others rather than focus on his own pain. That is one way of dealing with suffering.

There are those who despite great pain, still manage to smile, and to bring a smile to others. They might joke about how the doctor “keeps them in stitches.” I watched a faceless boy in Galveston laughing with the nurses.

 

[FrDavid96]

Following up on this.

What people notice regarding suffering is my response or reaction.
Do I get angry and curse everybody and everything on Facebook?
I’m not talking about anger as an emotion. Emotions are neutral, and repressed anger leads to depression. That’s not healthy, or denying asking why.
I not talking about stuffing it.

There has been many tragic events in the news lately. In explaining these events, Mr. Rogers said, “Look for the helpers.” Although a person may be personally touched by what is happening around him, he chooses to help others rather than focus on his own pain. That is one way of dealing with suffering.

There are those who despite great pain, still manage to smile, and to bring a smile to others. They might joke about how the doctor “keeps them in stitches.” I watched a faceless boy in Galveston laughing with the nurses.

That’s what I’m talking about.

When we see someone suffering we react.

An innocent boy is a victim of disease. The disease is an evil. The suffering is an evil. It is the result of Original Sin. Without (or before) Original Sin, such disease did not, and could not, exist.

The doctor reacts to alleviate the suffering, not just with medicine but with love as well. The blessing is our ability to learn how to cure disease. The blessing is the love that the doctor expresses. The blessing is the laugh that the boy is able to enjoy in spite of his suffering.

The problem is that people see the blessing, see that the blessing comes after (or as a reaction to) the suffering, and then equate (more accurately, confuse or conflate) the suffering with the blessing. That’s not consistent with God as He has revealed Himself. God does not impose suffering as a blessing.

Suffering is no blessing. It’s an evil that exists as a consequence of Original Sin.

As I’ve said before I’m writing here the same thing that JPII is teaching. I’m merely condensing it and putting it into my own words.

 

[reggieM]

“You know, this terrible pain is only the kiss of Jesus — a sign that you have come so close to Jesus on the cross that he can kiss you.” Mother Teresa

 

[reggieM]

O my true Lord and Glory, the Cross that You have prepared for those who reach this stage is indeed light, yet at the same time it is most heavy! It is light because** it is sweet, **and heavy because there are times when the soul has no patience left to endure it. Yet it would never wish to be free from that Cross, unless in order to come to You. When it remembers that it has never served You at all, and that by living it may yet do so, it longs for a much heavier burden, and never to die until the end of the world. It values its repose as nothing, compared with doing You some slight service. - St Teresa Avila

 

[reggieM]

I realize better every day what grace our Lord has shown me in enabling me to understand the blessings of suffering so that I can peacefully endure the want of happiness in earthly things since they pass so quickly.
Day 15, paragraph 1 of St. Teresa’s letter to Don Alvaro de Mendoza

 

[reggieM]

A Catholic blogger wonders: “Can Suffering be a Gift from God”?

catholicstand.com/suffering-gift-god/

She concludes:

*Sorrow is a mysterious thing and redemptive suffering can be a blessing for oneself and for others.
*

 

[reggieM]

If God gives you an abundant harvest of trials, it is a sign of great holiness which He desires you to attain. Do you want to become a great saint? Ask God to send you many sufferings. The flame of Divine Love never rises higher than when fed with the wood of the Cross, which the infinite charity of the Savior used to finish His sacrifice. All the pleasures of the world are nothing compared with the sweetness found in the gall and vinegar offered to Jesus Christ. That is, hard and painful things endured for Jesus Christ and with Jesus Christ.
–Saint Ignatius of Loyola

 

[reggieM]

Suffering is a great favor. Remember that everything soon comes to an end . . . and take courage. Think of how our gain is eternal.
–St. Teresa of Avila

Suffering is a great grace; through suffering the soul becomes like the Saviour; in suffering love becomes crystallised; the greater the suffering, the purer the love. (57)
–St. Faustina

“If you really want to love Jesus, first learn to suffer, because** suffering teaches you** to love.”
–St. Gemma Galgani

Dear brothers and sisters, I pray God may open your eyes and let you see what hidden treasures he bestows on us in the trials from which the world thinks only to flee. Shame turns into honor when we seek God’s glory. Present affliction become the source of heavenly glory. To those who suffer wounds in fighting his battles God opens his arms in loving, tender friendship. That is why he (Christ) tells us that if we want to join him, we shall travel the way he took. It is surely not right that the Son of God should go his way on the path of shame while the sons of men walk the way of worldly honor: “The disciple is not above his teacher, nor the servant greater than his master.”
–from a letter by Saint John of Avila

If we only knew the precious treasure hidden in infirmities, we would receive them with teh same joy with which we receive the greatest benefits, and we would bear them without ever complaining or showing signs of weariness.
–St. Vincent de Paul

 

[reggieM]

You say that’s not good enough. I have to prove not just that it “is an evil” but that it “is not a blessing.”

I provided a number of quotes that say exactly the opposite of what you claim.
You could not provide one that supports what you claim.