God's Soldiers Quote

[FrDavid96]

“You know, this terrible pain is only the kiss of Jesus — a sign that you have come so close to Jesus on the cross that he can kiss you.” Mother Teresa

I don’t care what kind of proof texts you type.

It won’t change the reality.

Suffering is an evil. It is not a blessing from God.

All of those examples are of poetic license; they are not theological teachings.

For crying out loud, would you please read the text of John Paul II that I’ve posted.

His letter is a teaching document; not poetic mysticism (not that there’s anything wrong with mysticism)

One must understand the difference between a document meant to teach something, like JPII letter on the one hand and mysticism on the other hand.

 

[FrDavid96]

I provided a number of quotes that say exactly the opposite of what you claim.
You could not provide one that supports what you claim.

Then you have not read the text of JPII that I posted.

You are arguing in exactly the same way as someone who says “you cannot prove that the moon is not made of cheddar cheese.”

I am trying to explain things to you.

I am trying to reason with you.

You are just being stubborn about this.

 

[reggieM]

One must understand the difference between a document meant to teach something, like JPII letter on the one hand and mysticism on the other hand.

St. Teresa of Avila is a doctor of the church. It would not be correct to dismiss her teachings as “mysticism”: You stated that suffering cannot be a blessing.

She says:

I realize better every day what grace our Lord has shown me in enabling me to understand** the blessings of suffering** so that I can peacefully endure the want of happiness in earthly things since they pass so quickly.

Day 15, paragraph 1 of St. Teresa’s letter to Don Alvaro de Mendoza

I asked you for a statement that contradicts this.
St. John Paul II’s document does not say that “suffering cannot be a blessing”. That is your interpretation and your view is contradicted above.

 

[reggieM]

I am trying to explain things to you.

I am trying to reason with you.

You dropped a papal document on me and then gave your private interpretation.
I asked for a source from Catholic teaching that states explicitly that “suffering cannot be a blessing”.
You then accused me of asking too much of you or asking for something incoherent.
I provided several texts that say exactly the opposite of your unofficial interpretation of a papal text.
I don’t think you’re actually being reasonable on this issue.

 

[reggieM]

Fr. David

As you obviously know, by Jesus’ passion and death, we were redeemed.
The greatest blessing came to us through suffering.

Ok, if you want to say that “the crucifixion itself” is not a blessing - I guess that’s fine.

Jesus transformed the suffering of the Cross from being something of no value or evil value – to being the greatest blessing for all mankind.

So, by God’s power, acts of suffering become something other than evil.

But to merely say “suffering cannot ever become a blessing”, while requiring a sorts of additional qualifiers so that would make sense – is only adding confusion.

Of course suffering can be a blessing - by the power of God.
Suffering on its own, without God transforming it, or without it being offered to Him – or the suffering of Hell, ok fine - that cannot be a blessing.

But these distinctions are needed.

Otherwise we run into the direct contradictions that I presented.

 

[DebChris]

A person can learn through suffering.
It’s easy to say These are the principles upon which I live my life before that life has truly been challenged.
Every mother is familiar with family advice given from the person who has never had a child. It’s the same idea. I may say I believe in God. I lay down my life for God, but then comes the day of testing. What happens then?
It’s not so simple.
What the saints see as blessings are not the sufferings themselves, but the lessons learned. The lessons in compassion and patience, for example.
Nobody wants to see a young boy burned beyond recognition. My father was one who looked for the silver lining within the cloud. He spoke about how our family always had food on the table even during the Depression. He held back the real reason why he didn’t finish elementary school. When I was old enough, my mother told me about a young boy who worked before and after school from the time he was seven.

There is no question about how different Saints reached crisis points in their lives. These crisis points meant examining their lives. A dark period in life can mean challenging the very core of deepest held beliefs. This can be agonizingly painful, yet lead to fully embracing the cross because of who is on the cross, and what is on the other side.

 

[FrDavid96]

St. Teresa of Avila is a doctor of the church. It would not be correct to dismiss her teachings as “mysticism”: You stated that suffering cannot be a blessing.
…

You do not know the definitions of the words you’re using.

Saying that her writing are “mysticism” is not dismissing them. It’s merely a word that describes the genre of writing.

Mysticism is not the same thing as teaching documents, such as Apostolic Letters.

2 different genres. Nothing more.

 

[FrDavid96]

You dropped a papal document on me and then gave your private interpretation.
I asked for a source from Catholic teaching that states explicitly that “suffering cannot be a blessing”.
You then accused me of asking too much of you or asking for something incoherent.
I provided several texts that say exactly the opposite of your unofficial interpretation of a papal text.
I don’t think you’re actually being reasonable on this issue.

It’s hardly a “private interpretation” to point out the obvious fact that John Paul II says that suffering is an evil about 7 or 8 times in just one single page.

I’m sorry to tell you this, but it is you who are being completely unreasonable.

I will admit that something like an Apostolic Letter takes a certain amount of academic preparation to fully understand. HOWEVER the sentences are quite direct and easy for anyone to understand—even one who has no understanding of Christianity can understand the simple words “suffering is an evil” It doesn’t take a theology degree to see the plain meaning of the words.

And you’re still doing the same thing: you’re demanding that I show you the document that says “the moon is not made of cheddar cheese” even though I’ve repeatedly shown you the proof that the moon is made of rocks.

You are demanding that I show some proof-text that contains the exact words “suffering is not a blessing.”

I have already shown repeatedly the texts that do state that “suffering is evil.”

Do you really think it’s necessary or reasonable to expect me to prove the point that “evil is not a blessing”??? Do I really have to do that for you?

 

[FrDavid96]

Fr. David

As you obviously know, by Jesus’ passion and death, we were redeemed.
The greatest blessing came to us through suffering.

Yes.

As I have stated multiple times already, blessings can and do come as a result of suffering. You’re trying to convince me of something that I’ve already stated several times now.

Ok, if you want to say that “the crucifixion itself” is not a blessing - I guess that’s fine.

Now you’re just putting ridiculous words into my mouth.

The suffering on the cross was not a blessing. It was an evil caused by Original Sin.

Of course, Christ’s acceptance of His Passion is a blessing—but not the actual suffering itself which He endured. That suffering was still an act of evil committed by those who caused His suffering.

Jesus transformed the suffering of the Cross from being something of no value or evil value – to being the greatest blessing for all mankind.

NO!!!

The suffering is not the blessing. The REDEMPTION is the blessing!

How many times do I need to keep saying the same thing?

So, by God’s power, acts of suffering become something other than evil.

No. The suffering does not “become” something else. It leads to something else.
The suffering itself remains an evil; one that can be overcome by good.

I keep typing the words. Why won’t you just read them?

But to merely say “suffering cannot ever become a blessing”, while requiring a sorts of additional qualifiers so that would make sense – is only adding confusion.

I am not doing any such thing.
For Pete’s sake, would you PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE read the words I keep typing. I’m begging you: read the words.

There is nothing complicated about it.
Suffering is evil. Suffering is not a blessing.

Our response to the suffering is the blessing. Or we can put that another way and say that God’s grace helps us to overpower the suffering.

I’m not saying anything that is even remotely confusing. I keep writing the same 2 very simple sentences over and over again.

1. Suffering is an evil.
2. Our response to the suffering is a blessing.

There’s nothing complicated about it.

Of course suffering can be a blessing

No.

Evil can never be a blessing.

• by the power of God.
  Suffering on its own, without God transforming it, or without it being offered to Him – or the suffering of Hell, ok fine - that cannot be a blessing.

But these distinctions are needed.

Otherwise we run into the direct contradictions that I presented.

:banghead:

 

[FrDavid96]

A person can learn through suffering.
It’s easy to say These are the principles upon which I live my life before that life has truly been challenged.
Every mother is familiar with family advice given from the person who has never had a child. It’s the same idea. I may say I believe in God. I lay down my life for God, but then comes the day of testing. What happens then?
It’s not so simple.
What the saints see as blessings are not the sufferings themselves, but the lessons learned. The lessons in compassion and patience, for example.
Nobody wants to see a young boy burned beyond recognition. My father was one who looked for the silver lining within the cloud. He spoke about how our family always had food on the table even during the Depression. He held back the real reason why he didn’t finish elementary school. When I was old enough, my mother told me about a young boy who worked before and after school from the time he was seven.

There is no question about how different Saints reached crisis points in their lives. These crisis points meant examining their lives. A dark period in life can mean challenging the very core of deepest held beliefs. This can be agonizingly painful, yet lead to fully embracing the cross because of who is on the cross, and what is on the other side.

Thank you!

:dancing:

That’s what I keep posting over and over again.

Maybe coming from you, it might sink in.

 

[reggieM]

Yes.

As I have stated multiple times already, blessings can and do come as a result of suffering. You’re trying to convince me of something that I’ve already stated several times now.

Ok, thanks.

Rephrased: As a result of suffering, blessings can and do come.
To receive the blessing, one must have the suffering.

I want the blessing, therefore I need the suffering.

Who do I ask to grant me the suffering (penance, good works, repentance, sorrow of heart)?

You’re saying God cannot help me with that. Obviously, God would not give me evil.

So, do I ask Satan to give me the suffering and sorrow of heart needed for conversion and repentance?

For me, the statement “suffering cannot ever be a blessing” doesn’t work very well.

I would say it like this:
" through suffering, we can and do receive blessings and therefore suffering can be a gift and blessing. But we can also equate suffering with evil, and in that case evil itself cannot be a blessing".

That’s a more comprehensive and complete statement as I see it.

 

[FrDavid96]

Ok, thanks.

Rephrased: As a result of suffering, blessings can and do come.
To receive the blessing, one must have the suffering.

I want the blessing, therefore I need the suffering.

Who do I ask to grant me the suffering (penance, good works, repentance, sorrow of heart)?

You’re saying God cannot help me with that.

No. I am not saying that. You are twisting my words. I never said any such thing–not even close. You are not putting words into my mouth because you want to make it appear that I’m saying something which I am not at all saying.

You are also confusing things. Penance, good words, repentance and sorrow of heart are not suffering. Pain is suffering. Sickness is suffering. Hunger is suffering. Fatigue is suffering (since you mention “works”).

If someone is poor and hungry. that is a result of Original Sin (spiritually speaking, because I’m not getting into details of exactly why any one person might be hungry at any given moment or place).

That hunger is an evil. Plain and simple. It isn’t a “gift” or a “blessing” from God. It is a consequence of Original Sin.

When someone else gives that person food, it is to overcome the suffering. God might bless someone with the means to provide food (prosperity can be a blessing). God might bless someone with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to share. God might bless someone with the strength to help the poor (such as “God, give me the strength to carry this bag of rice to the village”). God might bless someone else, some greedy person, to have a change of heart and join in with helping the hungry. God might even bless someone with the strength and charity to deprive himself of food in order to feed the poor (or to volunteer for death, like St Kolbe).

The suffering is an evil. What comes after the suffering is the blessing (at least could be).

Obviously, God would not give me evil.

So, do I ask Satan to give me the suffering and sorrow of heart needed for conversion and repentance?

For me, the statement “suffering cannot ever be a blessing” doesn’t work very well.

I would say it like this:
" through suffering, we can and do receive blessings and therefore suffering can be a gift and blessing. But we can also equate suffering with evil, and in that case evil itself cannot be a blessing".

That’s a more comprehensive and complete statement as I see it.

No.

You’re twisting the words.

You’re manipulating the words to draw the conclusion that you want.

This is a very fundamental element of our faith: that suffering is a result of Original Sin.

Suffering is an evil—as St John Paul II says so clearly, so many times.

Evil cannot be a blessing. Those 2 concepts are mutually opposed to each other.

A blessing is a blessing. An evil is an evil. Suffering is an evil.

 

[reggieM]

No. I am not saying that. You are twisting my words. I never said any such thing–not even close. You are not putting words into my mouth because you want to make it appear that I’m saying something which I am not at all saying.

No - not true. It’s best not to judge my motives here. I am seeking some clarity from you since what you’ve said so far is, in my view, a confusion of terms and ideas.

You are also confusing things. Penance, good words, repentance and sorrow of heart are not suffering. Pain is suffering. Sickness is suffering. Hunger is suffering. Fatigue is suffering (since you mention “works”).

Ok, well that clarifies your view - thanks. To you “sorrow of heart” is not suffering. A person who is stricken with grief - you would say is not suffering at all. Instead, you say “pain is suffering”. So, a person who has sorrow of heart, is not suffering any pain in your view.

In my view, a person who does penance is undergoing suffering for the sake of God.

 

[reggieM]

A person can learn through suffering.

Yes. In fact, we learn things through suffering that we cannot learn any other way. If we avoid every bit of suffering in life, then we miss opportunities to learn.

What the saints see as blessings are not the sufferings themselves, but the lessons learned. The lessons in compassion and patience, for example.

Aside from the fact that this contradicts several quotes I offered, this is an unnecessarily complicated word-game.
When we say that “The Cross was a blessing to the world” - that’s a common understanding. To parse that and say “no, that’s wrong”, is to offer contradictory and confusing information. Jesus’ passion and death were a blessing to all of us. If He didn’t suffer to take away sins, we would not be free of them. So, His suffering was a blessing for us.

Now, to say “no, Jesus’ Cross was not a blessing for anyone”, would cause a lot more problems. St. Peter did not want Jesus to suffer and die and Our Lord called him “Satan” for thinking that.

There is no question about how different Saints reached crisis points in their lives. These crisis points meant examining their lives. A dark period in life can mean challenging the very core of deepest held beliefs. This can be agonizingly painful, yet lead to fully embracing the cross because of who is on the cross, and what is on the other side.

Right, but it’s not merely events that happened accidentally to saints.

1. They prayed for sorrow (pain) for their sins and the sins of the world
2. They prayed that God would grant them what they needed to do penance (pain)
3. Some prayed for martyrdom because that pain would liberate them (see St. Mark Ji Tianxiang who prayed his whole life to be a martyr - and he was one).

 

[DebChris]

Although it considered a classic, I struggle reading Butler’s The Lives of the Saints.
It focuses on the austerities that many of the Saints Butler chooses to write about willingly chose. These willing austerities contradict writings by other authors concerning what God desires from us. Suffering comes in many forms. It is not something a person needs to seek.
Even as child when I heard the story of Maximillian Kolbe being given a vision where he was offered martyrdom, I was not sure it was something I would or could ever choose. I did not yet know the true meaning of word as “witness,” not merely the giving up of one’s life. There are Saints who wanted to be missionaries, just as young children dream of being warriors without knowing the reality of battle. Some learned their true vocation was closer to home. A man like Maximilllian Kolbe did not seek to be arrested by the Nazis. He sought first to live in accordance with his Faith, to love God above all else.

The second of the Great Commandments is that we love our neighbor as ourselves. When Our Lord spoke about this Commandment, He spoke about how a man takes care of his body. If I do not love myself, care for myself, I will not have the energy to love or care for anybody else. St. Francis of Assisi was nearly blind by the end of life because of fasting and other ways that he mistreated his body. Upon receiving the stigmata, it is said that he apologized to his body, and repented of how he had abused his body. The body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. “Be generous to yourself for there is nobody more miserly than the one who is miserly with himself.” [From the Book of Sirach]. It is a scripture with which the Lord once admonished me. Even the strictest religious orders seek to maintain balance between personal care and austerity. The Carthusians take a weekly 4 hour hike for time together.

When John the Baptist sent his disciples to Jesus to ask if He was the one, or were they to look for another, what was the response? The blind see.The lame walk. The deaf hear.
Did he say anything about wanting disciples who would suffer for His sake? What Christ did tell His own disciples was pick your cross and follow after me. He did warn about persecutions. When you are dragged into court, don’t worry about what to say because the Holy Spirit will give you the words.

Suffering is a reality of life, whether a person believes in God or not. He who is within us is greater than he who is in the world. We can join our sufferings to those of the cross. The readings from this past Sunday’s Mass (the 15th Sunday of Ordinary Time) which included the Gospel about the Farmer Sowing Seeds, remind us that what lies on the other side of the cross/suffering is greater than what lies on this side.

 

[reggieM]

Even the strictest religious orders seek to maintain balance between personal care and austerity.

They practice austerity, willingly. That’s a life they choose.

Could you point me to the authors that contradict what you find in Butler’s lives?

Are you saying that St. Francis should not have fasted at all, should not have done any penance? Are you saying that he should not have received the PAINFUL stigmata because that was something very bad?

Have you ever heard of St. Pio of Pieltracina?

Also, you seem to be criticizing St. Maximilian Kolbe’s choice of martyrdom. Is that true?

 

[reggieM]

Dear Fr David and Deb …

Thanks for an interesting conversation - certainly.

I appreciate your comments and I have a good idea about where you are coming from on this issue.

I realized I asked some questions which would normally prolong the conversation, but just want to say that I will gladly read your opinions here but I will sign-off of this particular thread. I don’t want to keep arguing about this, although I do value your thoughts.

Thanks again.

 

[FrDavid96]

No - not true. It’s best not to judge my motives here. I am seeking some clarity from you since what you’ve said so far is, in my view, a confusion of terms and ideas.

Ok, well that clarifies your view - thanks. To you “sorrow of heart” is not suffering. A person who is stricken with grief - you would say is not suffering at all. Instead, you say “pain is suffering”. So, a person who has sorrow of heart, is not suffering any pain in your view.

In my view, a person who does penance is undergoing suffering for the sake of God.

I’m sorry to say it, but again, you’re twisting my words.

I never said that grief is not suffering----indeed I said the exact opposite of that.

You are trying to “prove” something which is simply not true.

Suffering is an evil which exists in this world only as a consequence of Original Sin.

This is not my opinion. This is very basic Catholic theology on the subject of Original Sin.

Every time you post you do the same thing: you confuse suffering itself (which is an evil) with the Christian response to suffering (which can be a blessing).

 

[FrDavid96]

They practice austerity, willingly. That’s a life they choose.

Could you point me to the authors that contradict what you find in Butler’s lives?

Are you saying that St. Francis should not have fasted at all, should not have done any penance? Are you saying that he should not have received the PAINFUL stigmata because that was something very bad?

Have you ever heard of St. Pio of Pieltracina?

Also, you seem to be criticizing St. Maximilian Kolbe’s choice of martyrdom. Is that true?

Instead of actually reading and trying to understand what I am saying you keep doing the same thing: twisting my words to make it appear as if I am saying something which I am not saying.

Please do not put words into my mouth. I have not said anything even remotely close to being critical of St Maximillian, and it’s disingenuous to claim that I am criticizing him.

I am saying that Naziism is an evil—how can anyone doubt that?. I am saying that the pain and suffering inflicted upon St Maximillian Kolbe (and everyone else who suffered at their hands) was an evil. It was not a blessing, not by any stretch.

His response to the evil, sinful acts of the Nazis was a blessing. The grace given to him by God to endure the suffering was a blessing. The life given to someone else by his sacrifice was a blessing.

Can you not see the difference between “suffering” and “what comes as a result of suffering” on the other hand?

 

[DebChris]

St. Paul tells us in Romans 8 “all things work for good for those who love God.” That includes the evil intentions of others.

I wanted to post a link to an article on the power of redemptive suffering I read in Our Sunday Visitor. I deleted the article and can’t seem to find it. It would be important to read the whole article. The author writes from personal experience. What she and others do when writing about redemptive suffering is link it to the cross, to the sufferings of Christ.
The reason that is important to read the whole article is because “suffering was never part of God’s original plan.”
Marcus Aurelius taught the importance of stoicism. That is not Christian ideology, nor is the Christian ideal one of masochism. We do not intentionally put ourselves in harm’s way. However, our lives mean that we live by a set of priorities that mean we may have to make choices. Those choices mean taking risks that hold the very real possibility for many people of losing family, livelihood, or their very lives.

The author of the article in Our Sunday Visitor did not seek the problems that came into her life. She is dealing with a terminally ill husband. Like all people, she has days when she copes well, and days when she doesn’t. There is now more than one book about the now bestselling Why Bad Things Happen to Good People. What faith gives her is power that those without faith do not have.