God's Timelessness, Repentance and Purgatory

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FChichizola

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Purpose of my question is to understand is to enrich my knowledge on my church’s position to better explain it to others that may ask.

I heard from apologists and I believe that God, being the creator of the universe and its rules (being part of this time), he is timeless.
I have also hear that we can repent of our sins up until death because after that we escape the confine of time, making our last position, repentance or out right rejection of God, our permanent condition.
How can we equate these two statements with the idea of purgatory to perfect us until we can reunite with God.

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut,

May God Bless you,
 
Matthew 12:32 seems to suggest that we have another forgiveness opportunity after we die.

And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
 
Thank you for your reply. I have never heard this passage interpreted from this angle. I believe the purpose of this passage is not addressing a temporal issue, but an offense against Jesus seen as another man, as opposed to offenses against the Spirit, willingly closing his eyes to conscience and heart. These won’t be forgiven.
 
As you said, at death the soul enters eternity, separated from their body, thus they can no longer gain merit or make reparation for their personal sins. Being that the Church is One Body, The Church Suffering are the souls of the faithful in purgatory, who are dependent upon us living in time to help them out; being that we are part of the same Body of Christ, we can use our hands, our lips, our hearts, our time to help these souls; it is a great act of mercy.
Here is a video of a man who experienced Purgatory, and gives an insightful testimony of how it is that the people on earth help out those being purified in purgatory:

 
Thank you for your reply. In principle, I agree with what you say here and furthermore, I follow the teachings of our Church, the one that Jesus Christ him self instituted. I liked the video.

What I was looking for is a clarification on the lack of time constraints and purgatory. I am hoping for someone that has develop thought on this relation.

May God Bless you,
 
FChichizola said:
I heard from apologists and I believe that God, being the creator of the universe and its rules (being part of this time), he is timeless.
I have also hear that we can repent of our sins up until death because after that we escape the confine of time, making our last position, repentance or out right rejection of God, our permanent condition.
How can we equate these two statements with the idea of purgatory to perfect us until we can reunite with God.
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Not sure where you see the need to make these two sync up?

God’s “timelessness” doesn’t conflict with a human’s existence within time.

But, perhaps the problem you’re perceiving is the notion that we cannot change our minds or repent, following death?

Still not sure why that’s a problem. After all, anyone who is “in purgatory” has already been judged as having been in a state of grace, such that his judgment is “heaven.” Anything that happens in purgatory isn’t about “forgiveness” or “repentance”, but about God perfecting the person in preparation for heaven.

(And, of course, if a person dies in a state of mortal sin, then there is no further forgiveness and no “purgation” for him.)
Sursumcorda1 said:
Matthew 12:32 seems to suggest that we have another forgiveness opportunity after we die.

And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
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No, that’s not true. The implication isn’t “second bite of the apple”, but rather, “not a venial sin, but mortal.”
FChichizola said:
What I was looking for is a clarification on the lack of time constraints and purgatory.
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Not sure what you mean, here.
 
God is outside of time yes. The souls in Purgatory may not be, and that would explain why they are still doing time, as it were.
 
Dan_Defender said:
God is outside of time yes. The souls in Purgatory may not be
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That’s difficult to accept, though. The “souls in purgatory” do not have physical extension (after all, their bodies remain entombed as corpses on earth). Physical extension – and changes in such – are what time measures. How might we reason to “time” in the absence of “physical extension”?
 
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Gorgias said:
How might we reason to “time” in the absence of “physical extension”?
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That is a fair point. On the other hand, how can we reason that there is no time when we know the soul in Purgatory is in the process of being perfected or refined? that implies some kind of timeline, does it not? Note that I did not affirm that it is time as we know it. It may be some kind of time beyond our human reference.
 
Dan_Defender said:
On the other hand, how can we reason that there is no time when we know the soul in Purgatory is in the process of being perfected or refined? that implies some kind of timeline, does it not?
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Well… how might we understand “process” in the absence of a place?

Maybe we should look at this in the context of another ‘change’ in the soul: baptism.

Now, from the physical perspective, we can see the physical signs and their duration – the pouring of the water, the praying of the ritual (“I baptize you in the name of …”). That takes time, and we can ‘see’ the process taking place.

But, what about our soul? Does it become infused with sanctifying grace in a “process” that has ‘duration’? Or, since it’s a spiritual entity, does it possess this grace outside of time, but in a way that’s related to the temporality of the body (which experiences the process)?

Perhaps the same thing applies to purgation: there are time bounds involved, with respect to the embodied person – certainly not prior to the death of the person, and certainly prior to the eschaton. But, for the soul, is there a temporal process? Or is it – like baptism – something that just ‘happens’? And, do we here on earth experience an analogous perception of ‘duration’, even if that (properly speaking) isn’t what the soul experiences? 🤔
 
Thank you all, since we don’t know the detail of what happens after death, this may be the right point of view. Maybe, after death, our souls pass through a time-like condition before heaven. If we are from the group who’s final destination is there.

Of course we are speculating here, I would like to know if the Church has a position on this point of view. Does anyone know of a Church resource I could tab on this?
 
On the Baptism comment, we are one soul and body hens Baptism affects all of us. Death is just a temporary state until the last day. However, while in this state, the question may be, does our soul pensive the time? From above, while in purgatory it may. Only God knows.
 
FChichizola said:
On the Baptism comment, we are one soul and body hens Baptism affects all of us.
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Sure – we are a body/soul composite. Agreed. Yet, how does Baptism affect our soul (since it does – I mean, our body isn’t cleansed of original sin, is it?), vis-a-vis the process of the sacrament as it is performed physically?
 
I fail to see what you mean by composite. Body and soul are one. On the other hand, the sacrament is physical sign of a Divine action that clean us body and soul as a whole.

We may call the process of dying when our body going to sleep until the last day. We or I don’t know how our soul experiences this “sleep”. I haven’t read much about this. Hence my initial question. I’d like to find a Church resource to clarify the correct way of understanding this.

Thank you so much for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

May God Bless you.
 
FChichizola said:
I fail to see what you mean by composite. Body and soul are one. On the other hand, the sacrament is physical sign of a Divine action that clean us body and soul as a whole.

We may call the process of dying when our body going to sleep until the last day. We or I don’t know how our soul experiences this “sleep”. I haven’t read much about this. Hence my initial question. I’d like to find a Church resource to clarify the correct way of understanding this.

Thank you so much for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

May God Bless you.
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Body and soul are one being in the absolute unqualified sense, yet the soul is incorruptible but not the body.
 
FChichizola said:
I fail to see what you mean by composite. Body and soul are one.
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Umm… that’s what I mean. We’re not “a body with a soul” or “a soul with a body”; we’re a unity of body and soul. 😉
FChichizola said:
We or I don’t know how our soul experiences this “sleep”. I haven’t read much about this.
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It doesn’t. The Catholic Church doesn’t teach “soul sleep”; it teaches that we – in our souls – are fully alive and experience the Beatific Vision. At the eschaton, we receive our glorified bodies, and are again a whole body/soul composite.
 
Didn’t mean soul sleep, but body sleep. A reference to our souls and bodies being reunited in the last day.

I have never heard this being called a composite. It doesn’t sound right to me. Can’t explain why.

You are correct, the soul is incorruptible. Perhaps that is hell, in the last day, when we become home again with our glorified bodies. Those poor souls in hell won’t. Who knows beyond death, we know nothing but what the Church teaches us.

We are one, our soul is the anima God have us with his breath.

Don’t know how to mark text to reply in parts how you did, sorry.
 
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Thank you for your answer Dan. I know this. I am just trying to reconcile the two initially stated assertions I heard from renown Catholic Theoligians And the fact the soul will need to suffer in time to be purified. I know it has to, just trying to better understand. If there is something said by someone that knows better than I do.

May God Bless you.
 
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