Gods view in homosexuality

[Kolbe300]

Anyone that uses the word gay to identify themselves is going against the Catholic teachings.

This simply isn’t true. There is no official Church teaching on the language we must use when speaking about homosexuality.

They say as an excuse to say they are trying to be helpful so that others won’t feel bad. They couldn’t possibly know what your talking about unless you use the word? No it’s so the person that keeps claiming to be charitable in using the word that doesn’t want feel bad about themselves.

What this says to me is that it doesn’t matter what “they” say at all. You are going to place the words you desire in their mouths and assume you know the reasons for which they speak.

We want to be helpful to see them to Christ, but what about other people with different sins? We are all sinners aren’t we?

We are. And if we followed your theory, we wouldn’t be able to “hang out” with anyone at all because of it.

So if I was a thief should I proclaim to all the thief’s out of there that I have reformed and keep hanging around with them? Is it about me or them?

Is it about me, or is it about them? Great question. I wonder how Jesus would answer that question.

How about just taking care of your own soul and not saying anything but that you show you love Christ about going to church and keeping his commandment s and your own life will be their witness,** not trying to identify with there sin specifically**, but that you are a sinner period and then welcome them to the church.

If I can identify with someone’s sexual orientation, what sin am I identifying with?

It just seems we keep going around in circles because they like to identify with Gay word to be accepted in both worlds and that is not Christlike.

No. We are going in circles because you assume the word “gay” means one thing in every possible case. SpeakTruth, it’s obvious you are against “hanging out” with gay men and women, so I would really, really encourage you not to.

 

[Kolbe300]

It is about wanting affirmation desperately. It is also about an emotional attachment to that ideology. It is about how we define ourselves as a person.

The real problem is how we are defining others as a person.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Your right fix, that is where the sensitivity lies. Anyone that uses the word gay to identify themselves is going against the Catholic teachings. The church put out a book about Homosexuality and Hope and discourages using that word. So people take it upon themselves to do what they want, not what is encourage to do. Because they know best. They say as an excuse to say they are trying to be helpful so that others won’t feel bad. They couldn’t possibly know what your talking about unless you use the word? No it’s so the person that keeps claiming to be charitable in using the word that doesn’t want feel bad about themselves. Charity is trying to help people get to heaven and be truthful, not accommodating people’s feelings , but most of all getting yourself first to heaven. Everything we do is suppose to be about loving God first. You won’t be good to anyone if your not working on that. Isn’t that hard enough?

Jesus would not use the word gay. What’s the saying? birds of a feather flock together? If you don’t want to be seen as a practicing homosexual, why would you keep hanging around with them? Yes, sometimes in certain circumstances, but not to make them feel you accept that life. We want to be helpful to see them to Christ, but what about other people with different sins? We are all sinners aren’t we?. Why do we have to use Face book to proclaim I am gay and I have repented? Kind of like an oxymoron to me… What’s the saying? Using a bad thing to do a good thing doesn’t justify the ends. Darn have to find that saying. You know what I mean I hope. So if I was a thief should I proclaim to all the thief’s out of there that I have reformed and keep hanging around with them? Is it about me or them?

How about just taking care of your own soul and not saying anything but that you show you love Christ about going to church and keeping his commandment s and your own life will be their witness, not trying to identify with there sin specifically, but that you are a sinner period and then welcome them to the church. Some could just say, I used to live an unhealthy and sinful life and I found Christ. It just seems we keep going around in circles because they like to identify with Gay word to be accepted in both worlds and that is not Christlike. If you give anyone a hint that your living a sinful life then what is the point? Just my take.

Now don’t shoot me !
GB

“Homosexuality and Hope” was not put out by the Church, it was put out by the CMA, a lay organisation, they have no authority.
Will you condemn the Catholic Association for Lesbian and Gay Ministry?

If you don’t want to be seen as immoral then you should not be seen tax collectors because appearances are far more important than the conversion of souls amirite?
Thief is to thieve as gay is to…?

So let people go to Hell when you could save them? How Christian a thing to preach.

 

[speakttruth]

It is about wanting affirmation desperately. It is also about an emotional attachment to that ideology. It is about how we define ourselves as a person.

Fix
I know, it’ what my own son FEELS. that is who he is. He is loved dearly in his own family, but his own peers couldn’t understand him, so he never got the affirmation and felt rejected. So this how he connected. His brain tumor at 5 affected his life later with Aspergers symptoms that we didn’t discover till later along with hearing loss from chemotherapy. He later developed a spinally tumor from the radiation a couple of years ago, but thankfully it wasn’t cancer. He is only a little over five feet because of the damaged from radiation therapy and this didn’t help his body image.

At the beginning of this journey we didn’t take is so well and made a lot of mistakes, but have learned from them and sought God’s forgiveness along with our son’s. This was God’s plan that brought us back to church. Things are much better and I don’t focus on the so called Gay thing with him, but the qualities of what he really is as a person, my son, and the loving part of him that makes him what he is, not his sexual attraction. I hope one day he sees the love of Christ and he will eventually see that Jesus is the only one to identify with. I just have to be patient because he is in control, not me.

Unfortunately the so called Gay world hasn’t been too nice either because it is lie of Satan and many older men in that life uses sex in the guise of affection not real friendship to entice innocent young men. The world is changing the laws for the normalcy of being homosexual and to push that lifestyle that has already brought down many lives. I will fight against it till the day I die. This is where I get most upset, because it’s keeps them blind to the reality of this sin among others. I pray for all men and women with these issues and hope they see the love of Christ. Knowing some already have as I have witness brings me much hope.
GB

 

[Elizabeth502]

Folks, I think what fix may be referring to is that until recent history, homosexuals identified themselves to others as homosexuals. And by the way, that sometimes meant merely an attraction/desire, not that they had actually engaged in the activity. They called the term what it was, what it meant. It didn’t have a whole ‘culture’ connected with it.

I think that’s what fix is referring to when he brings up the political dimensions of the word “gay” and the reason that is problematic – speaking of intersecting and converting those with SSA, within the secular culture. Outside of someone referring to himself, as a committed Catholic & living a Catholic lifestyle, but pertaining precisely to those people that we keep being told we’re supposed to reach, it doesn’t just mean “having SSA.” It does not mean that at all. It means (a) being active and it means (b) "I’m a different “type of person” than “you.”

Except that they’re NOT a “different type of person.” That’s the entire point. And when one is convinced that one is a different type of person, biologically a “class” within a species, then the conversion process itself is jeopardized. No, they are not a speical class within a species. They cannot biologically or spiritually be separated that way.

Number two is the attachment problem which all the spiritual masters warn us about, and discuss. It doesn’t speak to the core of the person, which is why I went into it in such detail, earlier. Let’s go one step further with my earlier analogy, and say that I was not only attracted to satanic music and insisted on describing myself that way, but that it had developed into Wicca and bonds with those who insisted on identifying as Wiccan whenever anyone asked them to describe themselves. And what if I insisted on bringing that identifying feature into my reversion back into Catholicism? It would complicate and hinder that conversion if I “couldn’t stop thinking of myself as Wiccan,” (or refused to discard the term) particularly if I continued to be attracted to these various disordered counter-religious temptations, which one might expect even after my conversion. As a matter of fact, if I were truly reverting, it would be difficult for me to honestly conceive of my former social circles as benefting me, previously or certainly now. It would be diffiucult for me to describe the attraction which led me astray as “good.” Because they insisted on celebrating that attraction and afirming it as good and using their terms to define themselves and other like-minded people, there would be a disconnect there.

Ditto with heterosexuality. Maybe I’m a recovering promiscuous nymphomaniac who still feels attracted to multiple men. What if I insisted on identifying myself that way while trying to reach other such women and bring them as converts or reverts to Catholicism.

The attachment to the modern, loaded word “gay” fails to convince me, I’m sorry. It’s like “serving two Masters.” (Mt 6:24; Lk 16:13)

 

[DexUK]

The attachment to the modern, loaded word “gay” fails to convince me, I’m sorry. It’s like “serving two Masters.” (Mt 6:24; Lk 16:13)

Well, at the risk of rehashing earlier arguments, to many people the word ‘gay’** isn’t** loaded. That may be seen by some on here as caving in to a political campaign, but most people in the world - including many homosexuals - don’t even notice there’s a political campaign and just use the word innocently. I don’t think they’re ‘serving two masters’ and these are the people we are unwise to condemn for using the language that they do, because they don’t accept that they’re doing anything wrong - and, in fact, they’re not. To them it’s a neutral word with no overtones at all and, for many of them, to be told that they’re being wilfully political about it could quite possibly be offensive and would certainly risk turning them away.

We must always remember that when we evangelise to the world or even just try to explain our positions that we’re not talking to ourselves. We can’t use ‘our own language’ because the definitions of the terms we use differ from the definitions used by the people we’re trying to talk to. And then we get misunderstandings… and since the onus is on us to make ourselves understood, it means we have to use the language of the world to do so.

There’s no point complaining about it or getting indignant that the world uses ‘gay’ and other terms in ways we don’t like or agree with because it won’t change anything and often makes us look very intolerant and uncharitable.

It may look to us like the world is attached to a loaded term, but that’s just our perception - for the average joe on the street, he or she just uses it colloquially and can’t see what the fuss is about.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Well, at the risk of rehashing earlier arguments, to many people the word ‘gay’** isn’t** loaded.

Maybe not where you live. But that is categorically not true as a whole (when combining all regions and locales which pour meaning into that word). It has many meanings, and the two I referred to are the two assumed meanings.

When one is trying to ‘reach a population,’ it’s essential to use common language. Otherwise, they’re thinking you mean something very different, and vice-versa.

 

[DexUK]

Maybe not where you live. But that is categorically not true as a whole (when combining all regions and locales which pour meaning into that word). It has many meanings, and the two I referred to are the two assumed meanings.

When one is trying to ‘reach a population,’ it’s essential to use common language. Otherwise, they’re thinking you mean something very different, and vice-versa.

No problem with that - one should simply choose the language that will work best in the situation… I can only speak with certainty about language in the UK and North America since those are the only places I have spend any considerable periods of time.

I think the average not-particularly-theological man on the street in the US, Canada and UK would perceive the word ‘gay’ as simply meaning a person who was ‘homosexually inclined’ first and ascribe a political overtone to it second, if at all. It’s these people who then often perceive the Catholic Church as being hostile to ALL homosexuals on the basis of their orientation alone - and that’s the misconception we need to address.

 

[speakttruth]

“Homosexuality and Hope” was not put out by the Church, it was put out by the CMA, a lay organization, they have no authority.
Will you condemn the Catholic Association for Lesbian and Gay Ministry?

If you don’t want to be seen as immoral then you should not be seen tax collectors because appearances are far more important than the conversion of souls amirite?
Thief is to thieve as gay is to…?

So let people go to Hell when you could save them? How Christian a thing to preach.

I will disagree with anything that goes against the Catholic teachings

If they refer themselves as Catholic Associate for lesbian and Gay ministries I would question their motives.

Many things try and say they are Catholic and they are not. What about Dignity? Rainbow club, Fortunate Families All say they are Catholic, but promote homosexuality.

Hope and Homosexuality was given to me by Courage which is the ONLY Apostate approved by the Pontificate and a true Catholic ministry. My pastor allowed me to put it in my church because he sponsored Courage and Encourage. I may have misspoke the origins, Sorry

You misunderstand me. I meant hang around like in a group of just homosexuals, not an opportune time for conversion. Maybe if you read Morrison’s conversion you would know what I mean. He lost of lot of friends because he no longer agreed with that life. He still remain friends with a couple, but when your living a Christian life you should hang around with people who are living for Christ. If you want to hang around with a group of sinners, and I mean mortal sins not venial sins by the way, to convert them, more chances that the group of sinners will convert you. Working on yourself was my main point. I thought my point would still get across. I don’t know why you like to attack me so much, you should know me by now, but I have to remember how sensitive you are. I still pray for you.
Please forgive me. I did say I was a sinner, not perfect.
GB

 

[Seeker1961]

I will disagree with anything that goes against the Catholic teachings

If they refer themselves as Catholic Associate for lesbian and Gay ministries I would question their motives.

Many things try and say they are Catholic and they are not. What about Dignity? Rainbow club, Fortunate Families All say they are Catholic, but promote homosexuality.

Hope and Homosexuality was given to me by Courage which is the ONLY Apostate approved by the Pontificate and a true Catholic ministry. My pastor allowed me to put it in my church because he sponsored Courage and Encourage. I may have misspoke the origins, Sorry

You misunderstand me. I meant hang around like in a group of just homosexuals, not an opportune time for conversion. Maybe if you read Morrison’s conversion you would know what I mean. He lost of lot of friends because he no longer agreed with that life. He still remain friends with a couple, but when your living a Christian life you should hang around with people who are living for Christ. If you want to hang around with a group of sinners, and I mean mortal sins not venial sins by the way, to convert them, more chances that the group of sinners will convert you. Working on yourself was my main point. I thought my point would still get across. I don’t know why you like to attack me so much, you should know me by now, but I have to remember how sensitive you are. I still pray for you.
Please forgive me. I did say I was a sinner, not perfect.
GB

I can tell you from my own experience that I have lost friends since my return to the Church, but I have also respect from others even those who still disagree. I “hang around” with everybody-I don’t pick my friends based on whether they agree with my choices and beliefs. I have gay friends, straight friends, Republican friends, Democrat friends, rich friends, poor friends, young friends and old friends. People with differing opinions do not detract from my life, they enrich it-and hopefully my differing opinions enrich theirs.

And nobody is “attacking” you. This is called a discussion between people with differing opinions. Perhaps if you engaged more with people in real life that don’t believe exactly as you do, you might have some experience with it.

 

[Elizabeth502]

The only way I would slightly disagree with speakttruth, is that wihin a strictly Catholic enviornment, and as long as the Mission Statement of that group is non-ambiguous, I don’t object to “shorthand,” shall we say. In a parish near me there is an “LGBT” group, because it is a very liberal parish and they would not be able even to reach these people without such a named group. (And in that respect, I do see the point DexUK and Kolbe have been making). But that is all within a Catholic context and with clear definitions and purposes being announced. I doubt many people in the parish believe that the group is a front for sex parties. I seriously doubt that. It says right on there that they exist to support each other in the difficult Christian journey to attain holiness. Same parish also has an Overeaters Anonymous group; they’re not having giant buffet dinners in there.

However, I do see a difference between groups like the above and those who have really finished the conversion or reversion process: Those who have crossed over the threshhold into unambiguous assent are no longer are members of such groups, and no longer “carry an ID card,” because just like the rest of us – married, single, divorced, widowed, celibate religious & priests – they are merely pilgrims on the journey toward holiness, experiencing the common temptations we all have, which include sexual and non-sexual temptations of all varieties within the 7 Capital Sins. At some point, losing a cultural/political “identity” is very important to “putting on the New Man,” dying to self, and experiencing what Paul describes when he talks about loss of “self” and “now Christ lives in me.”

In our culture, we have an inordinate attachment to Self, perhaps like no other previous culture in history. Possiby historians will look back on this time period one day and name it (like others named the Age of Anxiety, earlier) the Age of Self. I have my own theories as to why Ego is so important today, but in the spiritual life it is the Enemy of full Charity. Every single Saint and spiritual master writes about this.

The journey of personhood cannot be framed, for the Catholic, in the language of the secular culture, because that is the language and those are the assumptions which celebrate the individual over everything else. If Catholics are revolutionaries, culturally speaking, the secular culture is counter-revolutionary, and fiercely so, and language is one of the armaments which they sharpen and import to suit their battle purposes, daily.

As to speakttruth’s complaints about various groups within her parish locales, I don’t have knowledge of those, but I have heard complaints both domestically and from overseas about some of the groups whose Mission Statements and activities are quite ambiguous indeed, and include support for secular events in the “gay” community which are openly sexual, openly anti-religion, etc. In those cases I would just encourage the parishioners to ask their priests & bishops for clarificationi statements from the pastors as to what the heck is the purpose of the group, because the parishioners acually have a right to know that.

 

[fix]

The real problem is how we are defining others as a person.

It is the opposite though. I do not see people defining others by their sexual desires. This is mostly self asserted.

 

[fix]

Fix
I know, it’ what my own son FEELS. that is who he is. He is loved dearly in his own family, but his own peers couldn’t understand him, so he never got the affirmation and felt rejected. So this how he connected. His brain tumor at 5 affected his life later with Aspergers symptoms that we didn’t discover till later along with hearing loss from chemotherapy. He later developed a spinally tumor from the radiation a couple of years ago, but thankfully it wasn’t cancer. He is only a little over five feet because of the damaged from radiation therapy and this didn’t help his body image.

At the beginning of this journey we didn’t take is so well and made a lot of mistakes, but have learned from them and sought God’s forgiveness along with our son’s. This was God’s plan that brought us back to church. Things are much better and I don’t focus on the so called Gay thing with him, but the qualities of what he really is as a person, my son, and the loving part of him that makes him what he is, not his sexual attraction. I hope one day he sees the love of Christ and he will eventually see that Jesus is the only one to identify with. I just have to be patient because he is in control, not me.

Unfortunately the so called Gay world hasn’t been too nice either because it is lie of Satan and many older men in that life uses sex in the guise of affection not real friendship to entice innocent young men. The world is changing the laws for the normalcy of being homosexual and to push that lifestyle that has already brought down many lives. I will fight against it till the day I die. This is where I get most upset, because it’s keeps them blind to the reality of this sin among others. I pray for all men and women with these issues and hope they see the love of Christ. Knowing some already have as I have witness brings me much hope.
GB

As the last Pope said be not afraid. You are very clear headed and strong. I will pray that the BVM wrap her mantle around you.

 

[Elizabeth502]

It is the opposite though. I do not see people defining others by their sexual desires. This is mostly self asserted.

Precisely. And that is why I took the pains earlier to elaborate on the Catholic understanding of personhood and how fundamentally different it is from the secular world’s understanding, particularly when that secular world insists on hyphenated “identities.”

 

[speakttruth]

Well, at the risk of rehashing earlier arguments, to many people the word ‘gay’** isn’t** loaded. That may be seen by some on here as caving in to a political campaign, but most people in the world - including many homosexuals - don’t even notice there’s a political campaign and just use the word innocently. I don’t think they’re ‘serving two masters’ and these are the people we are unwise to condemn for using the language that they do, because they don’t accept that they’re doing anything wrong - and, in fact, they’re not. To them it’s a neutral word with no overtones at all and, for many of them, to be told that they’re being willfully political about it could quite possibly be offensive and would certainly risk turning them away.

We must always remember that when we evangelize to the world or even just try to explain our positions that we’re not talking to ourselves. We can’t use ‘our own language’ because the definitions of the terms we use differ from the definitions used by the people we’re trying to talk to. And then we get misunderstandings… and since the onus is on us to make ourselves understood, it means we have to use the language of the world to do so.

There’s no point complaining about it or getting indignant that the world uses ‘gay’ and other terms in ways we don’t like or agree with because it won’t change anything and often makes us look very intolerant and uncharitable.

It may look to us like the world is attached to a loaded term, but that’s just our perception - for the average Joe on the street, he or she just uses it colloquially and can’t see what the fuss is about.

Your right a lot of people say it innocently, the activist have done there job well and have been able to indoctrinate people to think it’s normal or they are mean homophones. So what would be the all this fuss about Gay marriage? France, Italy, Ireland, England, the whole united states with our Gay president? The average Joe’s don’t understand any of this fuss about Gay marriage? Is that not a promotion of the life style or do people think they are just friends when they think of it? What world are you living in? Your doing a good job for them, they should be thanking you for being so tolerant of the lifestyle to accept there verbiage and if I don’t agree I must be uncharitable. I believe Jesus would disagree and he must of looking uncharitable when he whipped people in the temple.
Yes go with that. Hmmmm False charity is not charity.
God help us.
.

 

[fix]

Precisely. And that is why I took the pains earlier to elaborate on the Catholic understanding of personhood and how fundamentally different it is from the secular world’s understanding, particularly when that secular world insists on hyphenated “identities.”

I know and I love reading your posts. They are clear and cogent. I was trying to think of any other group of persons who identify by their sexual inclinations. Does anyone know of an example?

 

[speakttruth]

I can tell you from my own experience that I have lost friends since my return to the Church, but I have also respect from others even those who still disagree. I “hang around” with everybody-I don’t pick my friends based on whether they agree with my choices and beliefs. I have gay friends, straight friends, Republican friends, Democrat friends, rich friends, poor friends, young friends and old friends. People with differing opinions do not detract from my life, they enrich it-and hopefully my differing opinions enrich theirs.

And nobody is “attacking” you. This is called a discussion between people with differing opinions. Perhaps if you engaged more with people in real life that don’t believe exactly as you do, you might have some experience with it.

You don’t know what I am talking about from previous posts by him, but you sir do not sound very charitable by your own standards. This was in my daily bread. Every heard of it?. Some saint said the more I go out into the world the more I come back as a lesser man. I don’t need to be popular, I already have Christ.
GB

 

[speakttruth]

As the last Pope said be not afraid. You are very clear headed and strong. I will pray that the BVM wrap her mantle around you.

Thank you fix. God bless

 

[DexUK]

speakttruth:

Your right a lot of people say it innocently, the activist have done there job well and have been able to indoctrinate people to think it’s normal or they are mean homophones. So what would be the all this fuss about Gay marriage? France, Italy, Ireland, England, the whole united states with our Gay president? The average Joe’s don’t understand any of this fuss about Gay marriage? Is that not a promotion of the life style or do people think they are just friends when they think of it? What world are you living in? Your doing a good job for them, they should be thanking you for being so tolerant of the lifestyle to accept there verbiage and if I don’t agree I must be uncharitable. I believe Jesus would disagree and he must of looking uncharitable when he whipped people in the temple.
Yes go with that. Hmmmm False charity is not charity.
God help us.

speakttruth:

You don’t know what I am talking about from previous posts by him, but you sir do not sound very charitable by your own standards. This was in my daily bread. Every heard of it?. Some saint said the more I go out into the world the more I come back as a lesser man. I don’t need to be popular, I already have Christ.
GB

That seems a very parochial view to take… Let the world go to hell in a handbasket but not worry because “I’m alright Jack”…

I worry for people who make these sorts of arguments - the world must seem to be a hostile place and that impression of being constantly under attack can do nobody any good.

You might be right that the average joe has accepted a political position, but if that is the case, then they may not have done so knowingly. Unless we explain ourselves in language that makes sense, how are they to change their understanding? Personally I don’t hold that “gay” means “lifestyle” or “point of view” and I think most people have gone beyond that. It certainly doesn’t mean activism or rights marches to me. I just observe it to mean someone’s inclination about who they find attractive. To me it’s synonymous with ‘homosexual’ as it is to most of the rest of the world. If you’re not willing to accept that as a fact of life, then you’re never going to have much success with talking to people about the subject because nobody will understand your underlying premise. I’m not asking you to like it, but you’ll have to accept the reality of how language has evolved at some point.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

That seems a very parochial view to take… Let the world go to hell in a handbasket but not worry because “I’m alright Jack”…

I worry for people who make these sorts of arguments - the world must seem to be a hostile place and that impression of being constantly under attack can do nobody any good.

You might be right that the average joe has accepted a political position, but if that is the case, then they may not have done so knowingly. Unless we explain ourselves in language that makes sense, how are they to change their understanding? Personally I don’t hold that “gay” means “lifestyle” or “point of view” and I think most people have gone beyond that. It certainly doesn’t mean activism or rights marches to me. I just observe it to mean someone’s inclination about who they find attractive. To me it’s synonymous with ‘homosexual’ as it is to most of the rest of the world. If you’re not willing to accept that as a fact of life, then you’re never going to have much success with talking to people about the subject because nobody will understand your underlying premise. I’m not asking you to like it, but you’ll have to accept the reality of how language has evolved at some point.

It’s called a bunker/siege mentality