God's Violence in the Old Testament vs Who Jesus Is

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OneSheep said:
To further my point, can you see that Jesus presents radical departure from some OT images?

Imagine if Jesus had come at an earlier time in history presenting God as “Abba” which translates something like “Daddy”. They would have hung him a lot sooner!
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No… That What If? Speculation is just that … pure speculative musings… and nothing more.

And Jesus is the obvious FulFillment of OT Prophesy…

The Promised Messiah of ALL…
 
OneSheep said:
I observe that we humans naturally, as we develop spiritually, first equate God with conscience. Since the conscience is the first “voice within” that we hear, it is very natural that such equating is core to a child’s first concept of God. Israelites who took ownership of “the rules” found breaking the rules unconscionable, therefore against God Himself. Since righteous indignation is a natural emotion, and when we are in punishment mode (a mode practically inseparable from the conscience) we are blind to the humanity of the “offender” (they have no value, as Jesus had no value to those who hung Him) it follows that this God-as-conscience endorses severe punishment. In other words, when I get angry enough to kill someone for breaking “God-given rules”, I am going to project that God thinks such a penalty is just and right. (Notice, again, that this involves equating God and conscience vs. seeing that there is an unconditionally loving and merciful God underlying the conscience) I think that you and I can agree that this is a misconception, but can you understand the perspective? We all project our image of God.

Does that make sense?
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Yeah I get that. But that would imply that the early scriptures are giving us an inacurate view of who God really is. Or else it would imply that what is held to be an accurate view of God is only based on our perception and culture.
 
FossilResin said:
Yeah I get that. But that would imply that the early scriptures are giving us an inacurate view of who God really is.
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Yes, that is indeed implied, and we can embrace that implication. With the observations I presented, there is no room for saying that the people in the OT were “wrong” in their image of God. Revelation continues to unfold in history, and the people who have the best access to what the Gospel is about are the people in the world right now. We live today among the people who have the longest view of God’s guidance and action in the history of the world.

When the OT was written, it was written with the most current image of God, the most accurate image at the time. In turn, we can look at the effects of revelation: the abolition of slavery, the civil rights movement, the removal of the death penalty, the growing awareness of the humanity of the unborn, and many other actions and movements as manifestations of a more accurate view of God.
FossilResin said:
Or else it would imply that what is held to be an accurate view of God is only based on our perception and culture.
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There is no escape from perception; we can only accept that we know what we know, and we have no way of knowing what we do not. Of course there are cultural variations, but when I am observing a growing awareness, I am observing it happening in all cultures; I see it happening in all religions also. The most informed, most aware version of any religion is almost always the most modern approach. I am saying “almost always” because there are certainly instances of sects and religions going down the wrong path. These errors eventually work themselves out, the Father guides us out of our suffering.
 
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In some countries the laws still exist even today you can be cruelly punished by justice for adultery or fornication, theft or apostasy.
People do not do these things because they are afraid.

In some parts of the world there are not ending wars, and you always keep the sword in one hand, and your faith in God is not separated from community. People sacrifice lives for the sake of community.
Soldiers reality is a virtue of realism in order to survive and to protect your land, your community.
It is the reality of life in many parts of the world.
And it was like this for centuries.
 
Some people and even nations were hated very much because of their faith in Jesus.
There were ethnic cleansing, annihilation of millions of people, just because of their faith in Jesus.
And there were times when this faith forced them to learn how to fight and get stronger than their enemies.
 
FossilResin said:
Yeah I get that. But that would imply that the early scriptures are giving us an inacurate view of who God really is. Or else it would imply that what is held to be an accurate view of God is only based on our perception and culture.
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The Old Testament does several things,

God is revealing to is what we need to know, and only what we need to know , for our salvation. ( God, for instance, doesnt dicuss the physics of black holes)

God is preparing the Old Testament peoples, and us , for the coming of Jesus, His Incarnation.

The relationship between God and His people is being written as it grows, The Jews as the chosen of God, and their interactions with God , and their realisation that God is all , power and mercy. Covenants are made, God never breaks them, people do. God will never break a covenant.

The Old Testament, and the New Testament are filled with instances where we and they are taught there is only one God. All other pagan , gentile gods are demons.

God is also mercy in the Old Testament, as much as He is bringing the end of wickedness. One example is Cain being cast out, but being given protection . Another is the Noah flood where those not wicked are saved, another with Nineveh, Jonah is sent to announce its destruction, the entire city listens and repents, God does not destroy it and has a great discussion wih Jonah on caring about His entire creation
 
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Athanasiy said:
And there were times when this faith forced them to learn how to fight and get stronger than their enemies.
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In the Garden of Gethsemane; Jesus told his disciples to put away their swords. We are to love and pray for our enemies, Jesus taught us a greater way.
 
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.”
 
I think that even not long time ago some ethnic groups were annihilated by millions and thousands not as much because of their ethnic identity but because of their Christian identity.
Ukrainians during holodomor.
Armenians, Pontic Greeks, Assyrians during Osman rule.
 
This is fresh news


In Syria and Iraq, Christians have to take arms for centuries (even until this day)
Otherwise, you ll be killed by the army of Islamic state. (look at the events in Syria, Iraq, Nigeria… )

If you will not learn how to fight - males will be humiliated, tortured and killed and females and children will be raped, enslaved, sold out on the markets. ( I mean literally, it takes place in the 21st century)
Childish pacifism theories are for dreamers who do not live in realistic world, and do not understand that realism was, is and will be the virtue…

In Iraq, young levantine girls sacrifice their family, childbearing and carrier perspectives and fight with kalashnikovs against Islamic state army.
The Marxist, and feminist ideology is secondary comparably to bitter existential necessity to breath in the world surrounded by terror-islamic state army.
(The realism is forgotten virtue for many up to date pacifistic Christians)
 
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Athanasiy said:
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.”
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Jesus said many things, and he was very clear about the greatest commandments, we can do nothing greater.

Jesus said that two swords were enough between all his disciples, and when they used them; Jesus said put your swords away.
 
Athanasiy said:
In Syria and Iraq, Christians have to take arms for centuries
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If you are going to talk about injustice, please also remember the thousands of Iraqi who have been killed, whilst America and their allies were looking for invisible WMDs. We helped destabilise Iraq, and around two million fled as refugees, many of them to Syria.

If we had left Iraq a better and peaceful place, the war might have been justified.
 
Athanasiy said:
Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.”
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Sorry my friend but I sense you have misread what Jesus has said .
When he said those words he was talking about a division among us all. Example being I believe in the Lord but my Dad doesn’t.

Also worth us all remembering Jesus came in peace first time around. The second time he comes on his return , will be under much different circumstances.

This is the sword he mentions.
 
Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.
 
Beside the fact that US is involved, or not involved, there is a people"s faith, confession, land, country people, families, which they must defend.
In many places people appreciate US help, or can feel betrayed, but we talk about Christian ethnic groups who survive only by military resistance, otherwise they could be destroyed and annihilated (as history of the past millennium shows about Christianity in many places of Northern Africa and Middle East)
 
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Athanasiy said:
Beside the fact that US is involved, or not involved, there is a people"s faith, confession, land, country people, families, which they must defend.
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We are all created by the same God, and the same God hears all our prayers despite our differences. God is a God of love, mercy, compassion and peace for all people, not just for Christians or Americans.
 
Athanasiy said:
Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.
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We should first look to how Jesus applied these words to himself. Jesus did not have a sword in his hand when he laid down his life for us.
 
Yea, but if you live in community, in ethnic Christian community, you have no right to jeopardise your families, women, children.
You need to build police, army, you need to train to defend.
There is no sin in self defence.
Woman in some extreme cases has a right to kill the raper or maniac. You have to defend the invalid or old man from armed robber.
God allows you to protect community but with his help, relying on Him.
Otherwise you tempt God and permit disorder or slavery to others, including other religions.
Sometimes they do not even give you the chance to convert, they kill you and convert to Islam the enslaved women and children.
 
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