God's will: active and permissive

[Quis_ut_Deus_3]

:bluelite:The grace and peace of Our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

I’m beginning this new thread because there seems to be some confusion regarding God’s will. I thought that it would be good to start by presenting an informative post from Catholic Exchange. :bluelite:

God’s Will
April 10th, 2007 by Catholics United for the Faith

Dear Catholic Exchange,

I’ve got a question that has been gnawing at me for a long time and I’m always frustrated when I can’t defend myself against questioners. What is the exact scope of God’s will over our lives? That is obviously a broad question, so let me give context. I am a 21 year old college student and one of my friends was just killed in a car crash. He was just about the best person I knew and some people chalked it up as “God’s will”. But it seems that people only attribute “God’s will” to bad things that happen to good people. I have had philosophy professors say that if God is all-knowing He would have prevented bad things from occurring. If He did not prevent it and knew someone would die, He is malevolent. If He could not stop it, He is not all powerful. If He didn’t know, He would obviously not be omniscient. As all good, I cannot believe God would will my friend to get killed, but that leaves me in a bit of a theological quandry, right? Is God not “in control”? I get more and more confused every time I think about this. Please help!

Thanks!
Anthony

Dear Anthony,

Peace in Christ!

Perhaps a distinction will be helpful in understanding God’s will.

The ordaining will of God is also known as the “active” will of God, i.e., God’s plan for the whole of creation as well as each individual. God desires only our good and thus our human perfection. As the Catechism of the Catholic Church provides, “The ultimate purpose of creation is that God ‘who is the creator of all things may at last become ‘all in all,’ thus simultaneously assuring his own glory and our beatitude’” (no. 294; cf. nos. 290-96).

The permissive will of God refers to that which God allows to happen. For example, God allows sinful behavior, even though He does not desire it. Why does God allow sin? God truly loves us and love necessarily implies freedom. God lovingly allows us to freely choose or reject His will for our lives. When man rejects God’s will, he freely sins. God permits such sin, as a consequence of the freedom He gave man, but He would never ordain such sin. The Catechism addresses the issue of God’s permissive will succinctly:

"Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil. He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it:

"For almighty God. . . , because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself (no. 311).

Why bad things happen to good people is a fundamental question everyone should revisit on occasion. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, warning against easy answers, provides a beginning:

“If God the Father almighty, the Creator of the ordered and good world, cares for all his creatures, why does evil exist? To this question, as pressing as it is unavoidable and as painful as it is mysterious, no quick answer will suffice. Only Christian faith as a whole constitutes the answer to this question: the goodness of creation, the drama of sin and the patient love of God who comes to meet man by his covenants, the redemptive Incarnation of his Son, his gift of the Spirit, his gathering of the Church, the power of the sacraments and his call to a blessed life to which free creatures are invited to consent in advance, but from which, by a terrible mystery, they can also turn away in advance. There is not a single aspect of the Christian message that is not in part an answer to the question of evil.” (no. 309).

Ultimately, the suffering of the innocent must be accepted as a mystery, not the consequence of their sin. For further explanation, please see our FAITH FACT Human Suffering: Why Does God Permit It?

United in the Faith,

Eric Stoutz
Director of Catholic Responses
Catholics United for the Faith
827 North Fourth Street
Steubenville, OH 43952
800-MY-FAITH (800-693-2484)

:bluelite:As brought out in the above post, in Catholic theology a distinction is made bewteen God’s active(direct) will and His permissive will. God never actively or directly wills evil, but He permits evil because of two reasons; namely, free will, and because He can bring a greater good out of evil. For example, God permitted the evil of the Crucifixtion, but out of it He redeemed the world.

The greatest good for any creature is a closer union with God. Thus, when we are faced with trying and difficult situations, we are called to make an act of faith that God can, and will, use any situation to draw us closer to Himself. Is this not what it means to walk by faith?

God bless you,
Quis ut Deus 3 :bluelite:

 

[coolduude]

Awesome post! Thanks!

 

[Little_One0307]

:tiphat: We have an awesome post here. Thanks for the insights. I am looking forward to folowing this “topic” Thanks for taking the time out to sharing that. :tiphat:

[SIGN]God bless you Quis Ut Deus 3[/SIGN]

 

[FurtherSuntime]

:bluelite:The grace and peace of Our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

I’m beginning this new thread because there seems to be some confusion regarding God’s will. I thought that it would be good to start by presenting an informative post from Catholic Exchange. :bluelite:

:bluelite:As brought out in the above post, in Catholic theology a distinction is made bewteen God’s active(direct) will and His permissive will. God never actively or directly wills evil, but He permits evil because of two reasons; namely, free will, and because He can bring a greater good out of evil. For example, God permitted the evil of the Crucifixtion, but out of it He redeemed the world.

The greatest good for any creature is a closer union with God. Thus, when we are faced with trying and difficult situations, we are called to make an act of faith that God can, and will, use any situation to draw us closer to Himself. Is this not what it means to walk by faith?

God bless you,
Quis ut Deus 3 :bluelite:

Where in the quote you provided say…“That God can and will use any situation to draw us closer”

Do you believe that God sits watching everyone and starts “interfering with things” …its exactly what your saying…? Its very important to address this error.

The Permissive Will & the Active Will, are both simply expressions of Gods nature, God is Love and acceptance, period.

God is available love and acceptance period. If one is not available for this grace, one does not receive. Theres no judging, guessing, planning on behalf of God at all. And no-where does the quote you brought forward imply this. Do you now see how the idea of the wording …"Gods Will is very very misleading?

The personal God is a God of harmony, not words or non-sense which people imagine

My philosophy on all this seems basically consistent to my surprise… with the quoting. .

As well…can you tell me what the beatic vision is all about and exactly where did this phrase originate.?

 

[Little_One0307]

Where in the quote you provided say…“That God can and will use any situation to draw us closer”

Do you believe that God sits watching everyone and starts “interfering with things” …its exactly what your saying…? Its very important to address this error.

The Permissive Will & the Active Will, are both simply expressions of Gods nature, God is Love and acceptance, period.

God is available love and acceptance period. If one is not available for this grace, one does not receive. Theres no judging, guessing, planning on behalf of God at all. And no-where does the quote you brought forward imply this. Do you now see how the idea of the wording …"Gods Will is very very misleading?

The personal God is a God of harmony, not words or non-sense which people imagine

My philosophy on all this seems basically consistent to my surprise… with the quoting. .

As well…can you tell me what the beatic vision is all about and exactly where did this phrase originate.?

Are you saying that God does not have a Will? If so, can you cite sources.

God bless.

 

[Quis_ut_Deus_3]

Where in the quote you provided say…“That God can and will use any situation to draw us closer”

Do you believe that God sits watching everyone and starts “interfering with things” …its exactly what your saying…? Its very important to address this error.

The Permissive Will & the Active Will, are both simply expressions of Gods nature, God is Love and acceptance, period.

God is available love and acceptance period. If one is not available for this grace, one does not receive. Theres no judging, guessing, planning on behalf of God at all. And no-where does the quote you brought forward imply this. Do you now see how the idea of the wording …"Gods Will is very very misleading?

The personal God is a God of harmony, not words or non-sense which people imagine

My philosophy on all this seems basically consistent to my surprise… with the quoting. .

As well…can you tell me what the beatic vision is all about and exactly where did this phrase originate.?

:bluelite: May the grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

I commend you for your zeal in exposing errors. At the same time, I would caution you not to error yourself by taking statements out of context.

In my post, I said that "when we are faced with trying and difficult situations, *we are called to make an act of faith *that God can, and will, use any situation to draw us closer to Himself

So I ask you, especially as a fellow Catholic, are we not called to make an act of faith that God can bring us closer to Himself no matter what situation we are confronted with?

God bless you,
Quis ut Deus 3 :bluelite:

 

[FurtherSuntime]

:bluelite: May the grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

I commend you for your zeal in exposing errors. At the same time, I would caution you not to error yourself by taking statements out of context.

In my post, I said that "when we are faced with trying and difficult situations, *we are called to make an act of faith *that God can, and will, use any situation to draw us closer to Himself

So I ask you, especially as a fellow Catholic, are we not called to make an act of faith that God can bring us closer to Himself no matter what situation we are confronted with?

God bless you,
Quis ut Deus 3 :bluelite:

Ok…I think we are making good progress. I’m really interested to see your reply to this post.

Above your saying that God can bring us closer to Himself no matter what situation. I agree
with this but will add…God can do nothing but, bring us closer to Himself in every moment… where the individual is in the state of acceptance , this would be referring to whole peace and innocence.

If you find above agreeable it makes a huge difference.

I do not believe that God thinks like a human being deliberating things on a human level.My theories can address many mystery’s.Including the horrors of man, and where God fits in.

I’m passionate about this because of the tendency in thought, for God to be interfering with respects to mans perceived occurrence’s… Spirituality cannot reasonably rely on mystery with respects to important issues.indefinately.

I believe Spirituality must grow… St Thomas, St Augustine and many others would never be satisfied with the simple acceptance of their teachings. Their teachings addressed mystery.

Why does the curiosity stop?

 

[Quis_ut_Deus_3]

Ok…I think we are making good progress. I’m really interested to see your reply to this post.

Above your saying that God can bring us closer to Himself no matter what situation. I agree
with this but will add…God can do nothing but, bring us closer to Himself in every moment… where the individual is in the state of acceptance , this would be referring to whole peace and innocence.

If you find above agreeable it makes a huge difference.

I do not believe that God thinks like a human being deliberating things on a human level.My theories can address many mystery’s.Including the horrors of man, and where God fits in.

I’m passionate about this because of the tendency in thought, for God to be interfering with respects to mans perceived occurrence’s… Spirituality cannot reasonably rely on mystery with respects to important issues.indefinately.

I believe Spirituality must grow… St Thomas, St Augustine and many others would never be satisfied with the simple acceptance of their teachings. Their teachings addressed mystery.

Why does the curiosity stop?

:bluelite:
The grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

Thank you for your response.

You raise some interesting questions that require prayer and reflection.

For right now, I will say the following; if we not only accept everything that happens to us at any given moment, as coming from God’s direct or permissive will, but actually begin to sincerely ** thank** Him for it, regardless of what it is, or how difficult it may be to accept…we are nearing the very summit of spiritual perfection.

We know that the hands of infinite Love are held out to us at every moment…the question is…how do we respond to that same infinite Love in the present moment?

God bless you,
Quis ut Deus 3

P.S. I have not forgotten your question about the “Beatific Vision”.

:bluelite:

 

[Little_One0307]

Thanks for posting you guys, I am learning quite a bit here. Keep it up.

 

[James224]

:bluelite:The grace and peace of Our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

I’m beginning this new thread because there seems to be some confusion regarding God’s will. I thought that it would be good to start by presenting an informative post from Catholic Exchange. :bluelite:

:bluelite:As brought out in the above post, in Catholic theology a distinction is made bewteen God’s active(direct) will and His permissive will. God never actively or directly wills evil, but He permits evil because of two reasons; namely, free will, and because He can bring a greater good out of evil. For example, God permitted the evil of the Crucifixtion, but out of it He redeemed the world.

The greatest good for any creature is a closer union with God. Thus, when we are faced with trying and difficult situations, we are called to make an act of faith that God can, and will, use any situation to draw us closer to Himself. Is this not what it means to walk by faith?

God bless you,
Quis ut Deus 3 :bluelite:

Good post! I would add probably the best example from scripture which is the Book of Job. Job 1:12 shows that God allowed Satan to hurt Job. This was God’s Permissive Will. Job 1:21 shows Job accepting God’s Will. If you read the whole book you will see that Job was rewarded with more children and all his wealth.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

:bluelite:
The grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

Thank you for your response.

You raise some interesting questions that require prayer and reflection.

For right now, I will say the following; if we not only accept everything that happens to us at any given moment, as coming from God’s direct or permissive will, but actually begin to sincerely ** thank** Him for it, regardless of what it is, or how difficult it may be to accept…we are nearing the very summit of spiritual perfection.

We know that the hands of infinite Love are held out to us at every moment…the question is…how do we respond to that same infinite Love in the present moment?

God bless you,
Quis ut Deus 3

P.S. I have not forgotten your question about the “Beatific Vision”.

:bluelite:

Thankyou for comprehending my thoughts. If I ask about something I’m not trying to be argumentative, simply looking for error in my thinking.

In above you discuss acceptance of life or the idea of sincerely thanking God for everything that happens to ourselves. In principal, the act of thanking for something affords a ratification of the event with approval. We approve with gratitude then, the happenings in our life good or bad.This is then thought to be Saintly.

In honor of God, man cannot approve absolute intentional harm at the hands of another If an individual is tortured, a victim of mis-justice and so on, the happening insults the intended “unity”… man was made by God, to be about.

The happening itself cause’s pain in the soul, by way of clear acknowledgment of another’s lost existence. Representing in all, an insult to God.

Also the idea of thanking is a human effort supposing a human initiative which thrives somewhat, on social acceptance and approval itself.Thanking is a human exchange.

My thought deals with this issue, in the following manner.

We know when we pray without interference of self gain in requesting things, that the difficult
becomes very small or less difficult to endure. Also, there is less interest in the material as what we really need is there waiting for us, without a price tag or angle for social advantage.

Things are then simplified. Simplified relative to the vast array of need in the surviving human existence. In this state then, we are closer to our true selves.

The dis-order caused through lack of focus in our abundant needs, is now in order.

In this, we can thank God for being God.

The Believer can do nothing but continue in the sharing, as God.himself could do nothing but share in the exchange through our acknowledgment in God…(following the idea in earlier post)…

Thus genuine charity is further encouraged by means of the example in Gods
sharing & our experience

Outside of our true selves & relative to God, there really isn’t anything such as good or bad They represent distractions which allow for the material existence.

There may be things which we believe interfere with our true selves, but they really don’t. They only support or interfere with the physical. There are many things we think we need. In a way its true, but to what end…?

Lets face it , no ones perfect . But with above man can subtract God from participation in things we think we need. Good or bad.

Its important because its the only way man can attach focus to God, in the
understood nature of God. Order requires focus.

We all know very quickly in life, the difficulties physically & emotionally which are possible compared to comfort. If we maintain an understanding which affords God direct interference, ones interior life becomes entangled. Thanking God although with inconsistency in measure due to perceived good or bad…Always looking for reason.

So therefore I agree with the idea in acceptance of our lives, being very virtuous Although am offering

Thanking God… for being God.

God being love and acceptance period. ( without reference… good-bad)

Your last sentence…We know that the hands of infinite Love are held out to us at every moment…the question is…how do we respond to that same infinite Love in the present moment?

My opinion here is very easy to follow…

If you know in the moment within your whole being, the hands of Gods infinite Love are held out to us at every moment…
in that very present moment, you have just perfectly responded, to that same infinite love

 

[Little_One0307]

:bluelite:
The grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

Thank you for your response.

You raise some interesting questions that require prayer and reflection.

For right now, I will say the following; if we not only accept everything that happens to us at any given moment, as coming from God’s direct or permissive will, but actually begin to sincerely ** thank** Him for it, regardless of what it is, or how difficult it may be to accept…we are nearing the very summit of spiritual perfection.

We know that the hands of infinite Love are held out to us at every moment…the question is…how do we respond to that same infinite Love in the present moment?

God bless you,
Quis ut Deus 3

P.S. I have not forgotten your question about the “Beatific Vision”.

:bluelite:

I quote Quis Ut Deus 3’s post becuase they raised something that was very throught provoking. There are many things in the world that one has much problems seeing something to be thankful about, much less being thankful about.

FurtherSuntime,
this is in response to your post about where you were talking about thanking God. Many saints throughout the history of the Church have constantly exhorted all to see ALL as gift. Why? Becuase God can use each and every thing to bring us to a closer Union with Him. There are many things in my own life that are very, very hard to give thanks. I have to admit, I don’t always do it sincerely, but if you find yourself at the point to where you cannot give thanks for everything, I have found it most helpful to pray for the grace to be thankful to God for everything.

There have been times in my life where something just irks me so badly, and somehow when I can thank God for it, it’s His grace rather that enables me to thank Him, that somehow this diffuses the anger and it gets my focus off of myself and onto Him and His Goodness.

God bless.

 

[Little_One0307]

Your last sentence…We know that the hands of infinite Love are held out to us at every moment…the question is…how do we respond to that same infinite Love in the present moment?

My opinion here is very easy to follow…

If you know in the moment within your whole being, the hands of Gods infinite Love are held out to us at every moment…
in that very present moment, you have just perfectly responded, to that same infinite love

If I might venture my opinion here as well. Sometimes we do not feel that God’s hands are open to us, sometimes it feels like the opposite.

Perhaps it comes down to this, asking God for the grace to rest in His Love and to continue to rest in His love and to be at Peace in Union with Him.

How blessed we are that Infinite Love would love our finite love.

God bless.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

I quote Quis Ut Deus 3’s post becuase they raised something that was very throught provoking. There are many things in the world that one has much problems seeing something to be thankful about, much less being thankful about.

FurtherSuntime,
this is in response to your post about where you were talking about thanking God. Many saints throughout the history of the Church have constantly exhorted all to see ALL as gift. Why? Becuase God can use each and every thing to bring us to a closer Union with Him. There are many things in my own life that are very, very hard to give thanks. I have to admit, I don’t always do it sincerely, but if you find yourself at the point to where you cannot give thanks for everything, I have found it most helpful to pray for the grace to be thankful to God for everything.

There have been times in my life where something just irks me so badly, and somehow when I can thank God for it, it’s His grace rather that enables me to thank Him, that somehow this diffuses the anger and it gets my focus off of myself and onto Him and His Goodness.

God bless.

My thinking here is independent. I’m not feeling any need to detach myself from thanking God.
Can you re-read. My motive is being mistaken entirely.

How does man know, that there may be things which God simply and justifiably does not want to be thanked for at all.?

For example, why would God want to be thanked for something like
an occasion of absolute ill-will, when God never would have anything to do with ill-will?

Does it make sense to thank God as a victim of ill-will, when at the same time another soul
is slipping away from God…? We are also thanking God for anothers rejection of God . This alone rejects love of thy neighbour, in a self centered fixation on ones relationship with God

These issues are real… and need addressing.

In opinion, much can be further understood re Gods Will and suggested interference …with the provided thinking.in these posts

Thanking God for being God (period) and the opportunity to share in the creation, is my thinking.

Its never well received to be appreciated or thanked, for anything other than what one is…

I think the Saints throughout history may have been persevering in the found fundamental, life in acknowledgment of God, is a gift.

There are simply far too many incidence’s humanity, individually and collectively to infer that God interferes with His Will.

 

[Quis_ut_Deus_3]

Response to FurtherSuntime

:bluelite:
May the the grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

Thank you for your response. I like what you say about thanking God for being God.

At the same time, I again say that if we can give God thanks in all circumstances, we are nearing the summit of spiritual perfection. Normally, for most of us, this takes years of spiritual growth.

Consider the following from the Catechsim of the Catholic Church:

#2638 As in the prayer of petition, every event and need can become an offering of thanksgiving. The letters of St. Paul often begin and end with thanksgiving, and the Lord Jesus is always present in it: “Give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you”; "Continue steadfastly in prayer, being watchful in it with thanksgiving."120

Notice the teaching that every event and need can become an offering of thanksgiving, as well as St Paul’s injunction to “give thanks in all circumstances”.

Such a spirit of thanksgiving, arises out of faith…we give thanks to God because we trust in His infinite wisdom and power, i.e., He has our best interest in mind when allowing certain trials and difficulties. If we are not thanking God in these most tying circumstances…then what? Most likely, we will be dealing with the affliction of anger.

God bless you,
Quis ut Deus 3
:bluelite:

 

[ddarko]

I think in your quest for an independent thought system SEPARATE from revelation through Scripture,Tradition and the Church, you have stumbled in to error.

Here is why:-

My thinking here is independent. I’m not feeling any need to detach myself from thanking God.
Can you re-read. My motive is being mistaken entirely.

How does man know, that there may be things which God simply and justifiably does not want to be thanked for at all.?

There is nothing that we can NOT be thankful for. Our entire existence is sustained by God. When evil takes place, we are not thankful for the EVIL. We are not thankful that someone died. We are thankful to God for giving us the experience through which we can get to better know him and grow closer to him.

We do not thank God for EVIL acts of human beings for EVIL is not from God. If a possible world existed in which the human would not do something evil, then God would have created him that way. That is our faith. We believe that God has done everything for our salvation and we are given all graces needed for our salvation. Also, we thank God for GOOD deeds because nothing GOOD can be done by man apart from God’s grace.

For example, why would God want to be thanked for something like
an occasion of absolute ill-will, when God never would have anything to do with ill-will?

Does it make sense to thank God as a victim of ill-will, when at the same time another soul
is slipping away from God…? We are also thanking God for anothers rejection of God . This alone rejects love of thy neighbour, in a self centered fixation on ones relationship with God

This is a perfect example that highlights your misunderstanding.

We do not thank God in your hypothetical situation because the person is rejecting God. We thank God for giving us the chance to be their friend and possibility of working toward bringing him back to God.

These issues are real… and need addressing.

It’s been done and I hope you are satisfied

In opinion, much can be further understood re Gods Will and suggested interference …with the provided thinking.in these posts

Thanking God for being God (period) and the opportunity to share in the creation, is my thinking.

Its never well received to be appreciated or thanked, for anything other than what one is…

And who is suggesting that we thank God for what he is not?

I think the Saints throughout history may have been persevering in the found fundamental, life in acknowledgment of God, is a gift.

There are simply far too many incidence’s humanity, individually and collectively to infer that God interferes with His Will.

I am not really sure what you mean here. God doesn’t interfere with his OWN will. I don’t think anyone disagrees.

Just to add, if you stray from revelation, you will end up in a warped, incomplete philosophy. I suggest you nurture your philosophy within the confinements of Divine revelation and you will find a more complete truth.

God Bless

 

[Little_One0307]

My thinking here is independent.

What is your thinking independant from?

I’m not feeling any need to detach myself from thanking God.
Can you re-read. My motive is being mistaken entirely.

I never said that I thought you were needing to detach yourself from thanking God. My response was merely an exhortation to thank God for ALL things.

How does man know, that there may be things which God simply and justifiably does not want to be thanked for at all.?

I seem to remember a verse in the Bible that says to Give thanks In ALL circumstances. That’s very inclusive.

For example, why would God want to be thanked for something like
an occasion of absolute ill-will, when God never would have anything to do with ill-will?

You are right he does not have anything to do with ill-will. But we should thank Him for the good that will come out of the situation even though we cannot see it.

Does it make sense to thank God as a victim of ill-will, when at the same time another soul
is slipping away from God…? We are also thanking God for anothers rejection of God . This alone rejects love of thy neighbour, in a self centered fixation on ones relationship with God/

NO we are not thanking God for another’s rejection. We are thanking HIm for respecting a person’s free Will. And in the end there will be a greater good, we just may not see it on this side of eternity. And, it is BEST to keep things from a perspective of eternity. Also God sees what happens at the moment of death, we do not. How about we withhold judgement until we get to the other side, because ONLY God can know whether one dies rejecting Him or not.

In opinion, much can be further understood re Gods Will and suggested interference …with the provided thinking.in these posts

God’s interference with what? Our will?

Thanking God for being God (period) and the opportunity to share in the creation, is my thinking.

Its never well received to be appreciated or thanked, for anything other than what one is…

I think the Saints throughout history may have been persevering in the found fundamental, life in acknowledgment of God, is a gift.

There are simply far too many incidence’s humanity, individually and collectively to infer that God interferes with His Will.

I agree that one should thank God for being God and the opportunity to share in creation. But I stand with the saints in saying that ALL is gift, [even though we do not understand how it it so] and that we should give thanks in ALL circumstances.

I am not trying to misunderstand you, I am trying to understand you.

God bless.

 

[Little_One0307]

Ddarko,

I have always enjoyed reading yoru posts and it was to my delight to see that you responded to this thread. Thanks for bringing out some points that I had failed to remember.

God bless.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

I think in your quest for an independent thought system SEPARATE from revelation through Scripture,Tradition and the Church, you have stumbled in to error.

Here is why:-

There is nothing that we can NOT be thankful for. Our entire existence is sustained by God. When evil takes place, we are not thankful for the EVIL. We are not thankful that someone died. We are thankful to God for giving us the experience through which we can get to better know him and grow closer to him.

We do not thank God for EVIL acts of human beings for EVIL is not from God. If a possible world existed in which the human would not do something evil, then God would have created him that way. That is our faith. We believe that God has done everything for our salvation and we are given all graces needed for our salvation. Also, we thank God for GOOD deeds because nothing GOOD can be done by man apart from God’s grace.

This is a perfect example that highlights your misunderstanding.

We do not thank God in your hypothetical situation because the person is rejecting God. We thank God for giving us the chance to be their friend and possibility of working toward bringing him back to God.

It’s been done and I hope you are satisfied

And who is suggesting that we thank God for what he is not?

I am not really sure what you mean here. God doesn’t interfere with his OWN will. I don’t think anyone disagrees.

Just to add, if you stray from revelation, you will end up in a warped, incomplete philosophy. I suggest you nurture your philosophy within the confinements of Divine revelation and you will find a more complete truth.

God Bless

Firstly, you goofed badly. The member was asking me …to not feel anger and that he’d been through much disappointment and so forth in life. In response to this , I explained that I’m independent in my thinking.This was clearly in reply, regarding the possibility of ." carrying disgruntled emotions into my thoughts"

I am not disgruntled and therefore , INDEPENDENT of negative happenings in this thinking.
( this is ridiculous )

Clearly not referring to being independent in any respects to .Catholicism. In evidence if you took the time to read the thread from Page 1…you will notice that I remarked that my thinking was consistent with the opening quote in the OP. Please follow the flow more carefully. I have no idea what is next but will have a look right now and address regardless of this blunder.

The balance of your post does not follow the flow of the discussion. It is a general quickie in order to appear correct on something. You don’t even grasp what is being talked about.

The member is saying that we should be specifically thankful for bad things that happen to ourselves .And continues , that this would be the mark of perfection or Saint like character

The entire thrust of your entry is tainted by above mis-understandings & assumptions which make no sense.

If you care to acknowledge the above errors and re-post in a true to theme manner , maybe something can progress.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

What is your thinking independant from?

I never said that I thought you were needing to detach yourself from thanking God. My response was merely an exhortation to thank God for ALL things.

I seem to remember a verse in the Bible that says to Give thanks In ALL circumstances. That’s very inclusive.

You are right he does not have anything to do with ill-will. But we should thank Him for the good that will come out of the situation even though we cannot see it.

NO we are not thanking God for another’s rejection. We are thanking HIm for respecting a person’s free Will. And in the end there will be a greater good, we just may not see it on this side of eternity. And, it is BEST to keep things from a perspective of eternity. Also God sees what happens at the moment of death, we do not. How about we withhold judgement until we get to the other side, because ONLY God can know whether one dies rejecting Him or not.

God’s interference with what? Our will?

I agree that one should thank God for being God and the opportunity to share in creation. But I stand with the saints in saying that ALL is gift, [even though we do not understand how it it so] and that we should give thanks in ALL circumstances.

I am not trying to misunderstand you, I am trying to understand you.

God bless.

You are speaking for whom? I was replying to Quit et Deus.He claimed that God uses’s things to draw us closer to him…THAT means …INTERFERENCE, God interferes. THAT is what I was replying to here. As well here is a segment from your posts…

FurtherSuntime,
this is in response to your post about where you were talking about thanking God. Many saints throughout the history of the Church have constantly exhorted all to see ALL as gift. Why? Becuase God can use each and every thing to bring us to a closer Union with Him. There are many things in my own life that are very, very hard to give thanks. I have to admit, I don’t always do it sincerely, but if you find yourself at the point to where you cannot give thanks for everything, I have found it most helpful to pray for the grace to be thankful to God for everything.

I read this Little One. I can only believe what I read is what a person is thinking.
Today, you are thinking something else all together different

Read it and your entries for today. You have not only changed your thinking dramatically, you are denying any inference with respects to suggesting I am indeed… in anger or something.

I will look at this thread once more . If the posting quality and attention does not improve, theres not much I can do.