God's Will vs. free will

[origen314]

There should be an apology for making false deductions which savour of cynicism, scepticism and atheism.

**No blueprint has ever been produced of a feasible physical universe in which accidents and misfortunes never occur.
**

These are sweeping generalizations and meaningless platitudes that fail to address the points put forth. It’s just a “God works in mysterious ways” argument rather than thoughtful consideration of the world in which we live. I shall seek worthy interlocutors.

 

[tonyrey]

These are sweeping generalizations and meaningless platitudes that fail to address the points put forth. It’s just a “God works in mysterious ways” argument rather than thoughtful consideration of the world in which we live. I shall seek worthy interlocutors.

An ad hominem and a fallacious deduction which evade the issue…

 

[donchiccio]

I will make this very simple. True Christians take things by faith. The definition of faith is: “The confident assurance concerning what we hope for ; the conviction about things we do not see.” (Hebrews 11:1)

What we see isn’t always what it appears to be. For example, all matter appears solid but Einstein once wrote that all matter is 99.9999% empty space. it only appears solid because the atoms are packed so tightly together.

 

[SentinelofTruth]

donchiccio:

I will make this very simple. True Christians take things by faith. The definition of faith is: “The confident assurance concerning what we hope for ; the conviction about things we do not see.” (Hebrews 11:1)

You are making it sound like we should not question our faith. Please do not make a fool out of the church by the saying this.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

My thought is that what seems put upon evil to us is a matter of perspective. God created everything and saw it was good. It’s we that get twisted about things. Every part of our life is a gift, even the ****** parts. We forget and get angry or sad about it. We should enjoy the ride, ups and downs.

 

[donchiccio]

You are making it sound like we should not question our faith. Please do not make a fool out of the church by the saying this.

 

[donchiccio]

I am not sure I understand what you mean by saying we shouldn’t question our faith. and I don’t see how I am making a fool out of the Church. I was simply replying to the atheist comment about sweeping generalizations. My definition of faith was taken right from the New Testament.

 

[smichhertz]

Hi all,

Here are some thoughts I had on the subject that I thought I’d share:

Remember, God WROTE the laws of nature. So saying something happens naturally is by default saying it happened by the will of God. If God didn’t will for something to happen a certain way, he would not have made natural laws such as they are.

On that same token: God’s original plan was for us to be in the Garden of Eden in a natural state of happiness. Natural evils (like storms, disease, etc) did not exist there but were brought about by the fall of man. So it would be fair to say that we brought about these as well as other evils and not God.

Because we have free will, God cooperates with our will rather than override it. Therefore, when evil things occur, it is because of our own will and not God’s. However, when we do commit evil, God is able to find a way to bring about a greater good.

In short: God wills all good things.

 

[jay_wilson]

Smichhertz:

I was taught that an omniscient, omnipotent, and perfect God created the universe, including billions of galaxies, stars, and planets. One of the planets God filled with life, including an intelligent species he imbued with a cognitive ability to reason and think.

Then something went wrong with His Perfect Plan and…now it’s our fault? Can God create a universe too complex for Him to control…and then blame His own creations for their imperfections as well as condemning future generations for sins of their forefathers? Is that the morality of a loving, just, and perfect god or is that just he misguided morality of scapegoating?

 

[wmw]

Then something went wrong with His Perfect Plan and…now it’s our fault? Can God create a universe too complex for Him to control…and then blame His own creations for their imperfections as well as condemning future generations for sins of their forefathers? Is that the morality of a loving, just, and perfect god or is that just he misguided morality of scapegoating?

All this is a great underestimation of God:
…something went wrong…- no God gave us free will, we make poor choices, He makes new plans for every wrong to right every sin and make all things evil turn to good often ten fold better than before.

…now it’s our fault?- Yes! But, He will make it more than worth it if you allow Him by loving Him and following Him.

…Can God create a universe too complex for Him to control… He is Sovereign and in control.

…blame His own creations for their imperfections… No, He takes all their faults into account and judges rightly holding them accountable only for true choices of evil.

…condemning future generations for sins of their forefathers? No, nobody is held accountable for the past generations sins, but Baptism is available to avail the person of their inherent tendency to commit sin in a fall world of sinfulness.

And all your conclusions from all these misconceptions about God and His creation are thus false. Stop your Ranting and come to the knowledge of the actual God of Love and Mercy.

 

[SentinelofTruth]

Perhaps this will clarify things:

me:

God created the world because he wanted other souls that resembled his. He wasn’t just making a bunch of souls because he thought it would be fun, he specifically wanted virtuous souls. A lesson regarding the nature of virtue is in order here. Virtues (and vices) don’t cause patterns in one’s behaviour, they are patterns in one’s behaviour. For this reason, God couldn’t have just created us virtuous, because at the beginning of our existence we hadn’t done anything virtuous yet so by definition we couldn’t have started virtuous. Since good actions wouldn’t require much virtue if we had no incentive to do evil, the only way we could grow in virtue is if we were subject to temptation. Thus, if God wanted to have virtuous souls, he had to give them an incentive to do evil: suffering.

wmw:

And all your conclusions from all these misconceptions about God and His creation are thus false. Stop your Ranting and come to the knowledge of the actual God of Love and Mercy.

Jay is not ranting. He is calmly stating an objection to a theory which his reasoning finds invalid. Since, by the way, his reasoning tells him (wrongly, of course) that our faith is false, it would actually be irrational and a sin for him to practice our faith.

wmw:

, but Baptism is available to avail the person of their inherent tendency to commit sin in a fall world of sinfulness.

Baptism doesn’t remove your tendency to sin, it lets you go to heaven. Physical phenomenons, even when they are sacraments, don’t give you virtue. Virtue is by definition something you choose to have, not something that can be given to you.

 

[Michael19682]

I like the Canticle of Mary as a response. Imagine the dilemma Mary faced. I suppose if she had said to Gabriel, “NO!” then we would have had a different Queen of Heaven [forbid it]. Yet she quickly conformed her will to God’s. I suppose that the essence is that you need to “do” sometimes, rather than “think”. When we “do” we quickly see that God is perfect and not capable of error and that even “the hairs on our head are counted.” The past is not really an error and the only unknown is what exactly will happen next to remove that doubt of ours that makes it the mistake we often mistakenly make of it.

 

[jay_wilson]

All:
God’s will aside, let’s acknowledge that there are many points on which I think we can agree. We agree that, if one of us is right, the other is wrong. Either the Bible is the word of God, or it isn’t. Either Jesus offers the one true path to salvation, or He doesn’t. We agree that to be a Christian, and especially a Catholic, is to believe that all other faiths are profoundly mistaken.

The idea that the world’s population is balkanized into hundreds, perhaps thousands, of religions all marketing their “competing certainties” about how the world works should give you cause that they cannot all be right. Maybe one is right, or maybe they all all delusional. Statistics show that most people’s faith is simply based on where they were born and what they were taught before they could even think.

In every other domain of intellectual discourse, faith and dogma would get you nowhere. Of course there are things we don’t know or yet understand but there is nothing wrong with just saying “I don’t know”. To pretend to know something no one could possibly know is just intellectual dishonesty.

So I think there is basis for the statement that faith is not a virtue and certainly not a pathway to truth. If you don’t care about truth, but only what makes you feel good, then it really doesn’t matter what you believe.

 

[Michael19682]

All:

We agree that to be a Christian, and especially a Catholic, is to believe that all other faiths are profoundly mistaken.

Mistaken as to what?
John 14:13-14
Matthew 13:1-9

and

If you don’t care about truth, but only what makes you feel good, then it really doesn’t matter what you believe.

NO! Then it is most urgent that you do believe.

 

[origen314]

So I think there is basis for the statement that faith is not a virtue and certainly not a pathway to truth. If you don’t care about truth, but only what makes you feel good, then it really doesn’t matter what you believe.

Jay (if that is your real name), there are so many things wrong with your argument. We KNOW that God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving. He is perfect. Therefore, the universe he has created is not just the most perfect one that we can conceive of; it is the most perfect possible universe. So when infants and the unborn die horrible deaths, it’s perfect and the best possible scenario in any universe.

We KNOW the Bible in infallible. Therefore, when Psalm 137:9 says: “Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!,” this is a perfect statement in a perfect world created by a perfect being.

It is very arrogant and dangerous for you to use your so-called “reason” to argue that God, the world, and the Bible are imperfect. Faith is not just believing that for which there is no proof; it is believing when there is massive evidence to the contrary. These so-called critical biblical scholars claim the bible contains thousands of contradictions. They become experts in ancient Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic and study our sacred texts for their entire lifetimes so they can vivisect and destroy them. I say they are destroying themselves!

Accept the perfection that is the world, stop your dangerous thinking, and pray for the souls of those headed for perpetual torture!

 

[jay_wilson]

Jay (if that is your real name), there are so many things wrong with your argument.

We KNOW the Bible in infallible. Therefore, when Psalm 137:9 says: “Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!,” this is a perfect statement in a perfect world created by a perfect being.!

Origen, (I’ll call you Eunuch)… I now recognize my logical fallacies and bow to your superior intellect. In these days of uncertainty and misdirection, It’s nice to know someone like yourself has all the answers. I especially like your interpretation of Psalm 137:9. It’s pretty clear that God doesn’t like children as in Rev 2:23, Ex 21:15, Lev 20:9, Dt 21:18, Math 15:4-7, Math 10:21, 8:12, Nahum 3:10…and many others.

Other than that, I think it was Christopher Hitchens who said: “The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species”

Welcome

 

[SentinelofTruth]

origen314:

We KNOW the Bible is infallible.

What if we just denied that the bible and such are infallible? The infallibility of scripture is not something that can be proven on the spot, so you can’t refute an opponent just by saying “scripture says”. Without reason, we can’t “KNOW” that God is perfect. You’re just saying “I’m right, therefore there must be a whole in your argument”. Also, when you say:

origen314:

So when infants and the unborn die horrible deaths, it’s perfect and the best possible scenario in any universe.

you sound like an idiot.

origen314:

It is very arrogant and dangerous for you to use your so-called “reason” to argue that God, the world, and the Bible are imperfect. Faith is not just believing that for which there is no proof; it is believing when there is massive evidence to the contrary. These so-called critical biblical scholars claim the bible contains thousands of contradictions. They become experts in ancient Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic and study our sacred texts for their entire lifetimes so they can vivisect and destroy them. I say they are destroying themselves!

Accept the perfection that is the world, stop your dangerous thinking, and pray for the souls of those headed for perpetual torture!

Please stop making a fool out of our religion. When you say stupid things like this, you are giving people rational grounds to reject our faith. That’s the work of satan, so please stop doing it.
And what’s with “so called reason”? Do you deny that jay is using reasoning? By the way, it is anything but arrogant to use reason to try and refute a false religion (not that our religion is false). Shame on those who place so-called faith above reason. It is always wrong to persist in believing something against which there is ‘massive evidence’.

 

[origen314]

It is always wrong to persist in believing something against which there is ‘massive evidence’.

Tertullian, the brilliant Second Century Church Father said: “credo quia absurdum”, i.e., “I believe because it is absurd.” Uh, hello, are you saying you know better than Tertullian, the inventor of the Trinity?!

The apparent facts of the real world lead to spiritual ruin. According to the so-called experts, there are thousands of biblical contradictions. The Bible is also totally contradicted by science and archaeology. They say the 10 Commandments would have been way better if they had included “Don’t have slaves” instead of “Don’t covet your neighbor’s possessions.” I say nonsense: the 10 Commandments are perfect and therefore cannot be improved!

So you have to make a choice: are you going to believe the Bible or “real world” facts? How do you know these facts aren’t just the Devil testing your faith? I say Jay and you are on a slippery slope that leads only to perdition!

 

[jay_wilson]

I say nonsense: the 10 Commandments are perfect and therefore cannot be improved!

Interesting that you mention the 10 Commandments. Many would like to see the punishments for breaking these hallowed commandments specified in marble and placed in our nation’s courts. What is the punishment for taking the Lord’s name in vain? It happens to be death (Leviticus 24:16). What is the punishment for working on the Sabbath? Also death (Exodus 31:15). What is the punishment for cursing one’s father or mother? Death again (Exodus 21:17). What is the punishment for adultery? You’re catching on (Leviticus 20:10). While the commandments themselves are difficult to remember (especially since chapters 20 and 34 of Exodus provide us with incompatible lists), the penalty for breaking them is simplicity itself.

If the Bible and its author is so infallible, then why are God’s invocations for breaking His commandments simply ignored?

 

[donchiccio]

All:
God’s will aside, let’s acknowledge that there are many points on which I think we can agree. We agree that, if one of us is right, the other is wrong. Either the Bible is the word of God, or it isn’t. Either Jesus offers the one true path to salvation, or He doesn’t. We agree that to be a Christian, and especially a Catholic, is to believe that all other faiths are profoundly mistaken.

The idea that the world’s population is balkanized into hundreds, perhaps thousands, of religions all marketing their “competing certainties” about how the world works should give you cause that they cannot all be right. Maybe one is right, or maybe they all all delusional. Statistics show that most people’s faith is simply based on where they were born and what they were taught before they could even think.

In every other domain of intellectual discourse, faith and dogma would get you nowhere. Of course there are things we don’t know or yet understand but there is nothing wrong with just saying “I don’t know”. To pretend to know something no one could possibly know is just intellectual dishonesty.

So I think there is basis for the statement that faith is not a virtue and certainly not a pathway to truth. If you don’t care about truth, but only what makes you feel good, then it really doesn’t matter what you believe.