God's Will

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I read up on Scott Hahn he said God’s will is ultimately one way or the other fulfilled. How can we apply this belief to the souls in hell? Surly God wills no one to go to hell so how is His will ultimately fulfilled in this area?

God bless,
 
The_Way said:
I read up on Scott Hahn he said God’s will is ultimately one way or the other fulfilled. How can we apply this belief to the souls in hell? Surely God wills no one to go to hell so how is His will ultimately fulfilled in this area?

God bless,
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God’s Will is **always **fulfilled in every person’s existence because our supreme gift is our freedom. - without which we would not have the capacity for love. Even if we choose to live for ourselves rather than God we are expressing our power of self-determination. Paradoxically the fact that we can reject our Creator is evidence that we are made in His image and likeness…
 
Granted God has given us free will…but even through the gift of free will God does not will our eternal damnation?

God bless,
 
You might find it helpful to read Jesus’ account of the judgement of souls.
He reveals that in the end it depends on whether or not we have chosen to live in practical acts of kindness.

I am sometimes sad that there is sometimes less emphasis placed on Jesus’ words than should be placed on the words of the saviour of the human race who is God’s Son, who is God as well as human. Jesus is the source of salvation and the foundation of the Church. Can we call ourself Christians if we don’t accept the words of Jesus the Christ?

Matthew 25 verses 31-46…Jesus’ words on who will be saved:
“The Last Judgement”
“When the Son of Man comes in all His glory, escorted by all the angels, then he will take his seat on his throne of glory. All the nations will be assembled before him and he will separate men from one another as the shepherd separates sheep from goats.
He will place the sheep on his right hand and the goats on his left. then the King shall say to those on his right hand,” Come you whom my Father has blessed, take for your heritage the kingdom prepared for you since the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food; I was a stranger and you made me welcome. I was thirsty and you gave me drink; naked and you clothed me; sick and you visited me, in prison and you came to see me.

Then the virtuous will say to him in reply, “Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you; or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you hungry and feed you; or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and make you welcome; naked and clothe you; sick or in prison and go to see you?
And the King will answer, " I tell you solemnly, in so far as you did this to one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did it to me.”

Next he will say to those on his left “Go away from me with your curse upon you, to the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels, for when I was hungry you never gave me food; I was thirsty and you never gave me anything to drink; I was a stranger and you never made me welcome, naked and you never clothed me, sick and in prison and you never visited me.”
Then it will be their turn to ask, “Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty; a stranger or naked, sick or in prison, and not come to your help?”
Then he will answer, “I tell you solemnly, in so far as you neglected to do this to one of the least of these, you neglected to do it to me.” And they will go away to eternal punishment, and the virtuous to eternal life."

And since Jesus is the very Person who will judge all of us, I think we have to accept HIS criterion for who may be saved! His criterion is salvation depends upon our charity towards other people, which He regards as charity directly given to Him.

Whether or not we…I…you live acts of practical kindness (great or small though they may be)to others depends very much on whether we…me…you choose to do so.
You choose you own fate by your willingness to act with practical kindness towards others or whether you refuse to do so.
 
I’ll break it down for you:

Is it God’s will for us to abuse our free will? Of course not; although He gave us free will it was not His will that we should abuse it and go to hell because of it.

God bless,
 
The_Way said:
Granted God has given us free will…but even through the gift of free will God does not will our eternal damnation?

God bless,
Click to expand...
Obviously not. To be more precise, He permits our damnation if we will our damnation. Not to do so would be inconsistent with His gift of free will.
 
**Gods will is that His creation-in the form of ourselves and angels-obey His perfect will. But He also willed that we have a will too, and therefore have the freedom to disobey His. Our own perfection lies in gaining the wisdom to fall in harmony with His will and He patiently endures the injustice done by rebellion against it, helping us to see our error and drawing, but not forcing, us into order again.

But He can’t have it both ways. Either He gives us the gift of freedom and respects our right to abuse it or He must withhold it to begin with. But if He did withhold it, we’d have a totally different world- our holiness and even potential for greatness lies in our ability to come to freely exercise the right choice.

And while He’s patient, righteousness demands that evil be allowed for only a time-ultimately righteousness must win the day. So the concept of hell involves the concept of justice.

But the Church teaches that Gods wisdom is impeccable and she quotes the visionary Julian of Norwich in saying that, in the end, “All manner of things shall be well”: all will know and be fully satisfied that the right thing has been done when we finally witness just how God’s plan plays out.**
 
fhansen said:
**Gods will is that His creation-in the form of ourselves and angels-obey His perfect will. But He also willed that we have a will too, and therefore have the freedom to disobey His. Our own perfection lies in gaining the wisdom to fall in harmony with His will and He patiently endures the injustice done by rebellion against it, helping us to see our error and drawing, but not forcing, us into order again.

But He can’t have it both ways. Either He gives us the gift of freedom and respects our right to abuse it or He must withhold it to begin with. But if He did withhold it, we’d have a totally different world- our holiness and even potential for greatness lies in our ability to come to freely exercise the right choice.

And while He’s patient, righteousness demands that evil be allowed for only a time-ultimately righteousness must win the day. So the concept of hell involves the concept of justice.

But the Church teaches that Gods wisdom is impeccable and she quotes the visionary Julian of Norwich in saying that, in the end, “All manner of things shall be well”: all will know and be fully satisfied that the right thing has been done when we finally witness just how God’s plan plays out.**
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But when we pray the Fatima prayer, we say, “and lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of thy mercy”. Does not our pleading for Jesus to lead ALL souls to heaven run counter to the will of God giving all people free will, some of whom will reject Him? Or is the prayer mainly for our benefit, to learn to plead ever more sincerely on behalf of those wayward souls? I always wondered about this. I pray a fair amount, and yet nothing ever seems to change. Is prayer for souls mainly for my own spiritual growth? If so, I’d like to know; it would be a lot easier not to get dejected over the lack of results.
 
timotheos said:
But when we pray the Fatima prayer, we say, “and lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of thy mercy”. Does not our pleading for Jesus to lead ALL souls to heaven run counter to the will of God giving all people free will, some of whom will reject Him? Or is the prayer mainly for our benefit, to learn to plead ever more sincerely on behalf of those wayward souls? I always wondered about this. I pray a fair amount, and yet nothing ever seems to change. Is prayer for souls mainly for my own spiritual growth? If so, I’d like to know; it would be a lot easier not to get dejected over the lack of results.
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Our wills are never as perfect or pure as His and I believe His grace affects ours without overriding them completely. And leading or drawing isn’t the same as forcing. Sheep being led can always turn and run-we must willingly follow the Shepard’s voice. All that we do in response to Gods call pleases Him and He responds in kind. Sometimes He demands more faith-asking for more patience or perseverance on our part. St Monica, out of love for her son, prayed for St Augustine’s conversion for 30 years. Anyway, it’s always about Gods grace -and our cooperation with it.
 
The_Way said:
I read up on Scott Hahn he said God’s will is ultimately one way or the other fulfilled. How can we apply this belief to the souls in hell? Surly God wills no one to go to hell so how is His will ultimately fulfilled in this area?

God bless,
Click to expand...
God also wills us to have free choice, including the option to completely reject God.
 
tonyrey said:
God’s Will is **always **fulfilled in every person’s existence because our supreme gift is our freedom. - without which we would not have the capacity for love. Even if we choose to live for ourselves rather than God we are expressing our power of self-determination. Paradoxically the fact that we can reject our Creator is evidence that we are made in His image and likeness…
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This is one of the issues I struggle most with in Catholicism. Free will vs God’s Will. You say that God’s will is fulfilled in every person, but why would God create some who would choose to live for their own self…away from God? Is part of God’s plan for some individuals that they go astray?

Additionally,on what evidence does a rejection of the Creator link to the conclusion that we are made in his image and likeness? To reject any sort of concept does not require being similar or like to that concept in anyway. To reject an idea doesn’t not make one an idea of the same form.
 
homosapien15 said:
This is one of the issues I struggle most with in Catholicism. Free will vs God’s Will. You say that God’s will is fulfilled in every person, but why would God create some who would choose to live for their own self…away from God? Is part of God’s plan for some individuals that they go astray?
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A good question.

It is part of God’s plan that we have free will, it is a consequence of that plan that some individuals go astray.
Additionally,on what evidence does a rejection of the Creator link to the conclusion that we are made in his image and likeness? To reject any sort of concept does not require being similar or like to that concept in anyway. To reject an idea doesn’t not make one an idea of the same form.
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I can see this one being somewhat more challenging.

We were created in God’s image, but because of our corrupt nature and sin we have fallen away from it; many of us desire to try and return to God’s example - yet, as is an almost nessecary consequence of free will - not all of us will.
 
JohnDamian said:
A good question.

It is part of God’s plan that we have free will, it is a consequence of that plan that some individuals go astray.

Continuing from here. Since the origins of this thread are in regard to God’s will being fulfilled in us, which I think it’s fair to say is to be with him for eternity, why have such dire consequences?

It is plausible that free will is part of God’s plan, no argument there. However, if God’s plan is to be fulfilled in us, allowing the option to go astray seems counterproductive. Free will can be a vessel leading to eternal damnation, and so much of God’s will is based around forgiveness. So, how can they exist together?
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homosapien15:
Continuing from here. Since the origins of this thread are in regard to God’s will being fulfilled in us, which I think it’s fair to say is to be with him for eternity, why have such dire consequences?

It is plausible that free will is part of God’s plan, no argument there. However, if God’s plan is to be fulfilled in us, allowing the option to go astray seems counterproductive. Free will can be a vessel leading to eternal damnation, and so much of God’s will is based around forgiveness. So, how can they exist together?
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Indeed. How could anything we do merit the infinite punishment of hell? Most systems of justice establish that the punishment must be proportional to the crime. It’s hard to think of any standard of justice where the consequence is so out of proportion to the action (infinitely so, in fact :))
 
homosapien15 said:
It is plausible that free will is part of God’s plan, no argument there. However, if God’s plan is to be fulfilled in us, allowing the option to go astray seems counterproductive. Free will can be a vessel leading to eternal damnation, and so much of God’s will is based around forgiveness. So, how can they exist together?
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Firstly, we do not know that God’s plan or how it will nessecarily actualise in every one of us. What I do know is that as God cares for every person he determines and forgives everyone who seeks forgiveness - this is what the sacrement of reconcilliation is for. However; those who choose to be seperate from God, wilfully reject him; and it would be cruel of God to force them to be in his company.
 
homosapien15 said:
JohnDamian;6753788:
A good question.

It is part of God’s plan that we have free will, it is a consequence
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of that plan that some individuals go astray.

Continuing from here. Since the origins of this thread are in regard to God’s will being fulfilled in us, which I think it’s fair to say is to be with him for eternity, why have such dire consequences?

It is plausible that free will is part of God’s plan, no argument there. However, if God’s plan is to be fulfilled in us, allowing the option to go astray seems counterproductive. Free will can be a vessel leading to eternal damnation, and so much of God’s will is based around forgiveness. So, how can they exist together?
If we can’t freely reject or turn away from God, then we can’t freely choose Him, or turn towards Him. And turning towards Him is what it’s all about. This is what defines us as the beings He desires -those who willingly opt for the Good. What makes us potentially great-or “holy”-is our freedom to choose life or death, to retain and strengthen the image of God or to ultimately destroy it.
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The_Way said:
I read up on Scott Hahn he said God’s will is ultimately one way or the other fulfilled. How can we apply this belief to the souls in hell? Surly God wills no one to go to hell so how is His will ultimately fulfilled in this area?

God bless,
Click to expand...
I don’t think God’s will is always fulfilled. Certainly not in regard to the damnation of souls. “I take no delight in the death of the wicked”, is stated somewhere in the Old Testament.

I believe His plans are often frustrated. He may have plans for somebody to do certain things of critical importance, but then find that either by that person’s own choice, or the interference of others, spurred on by the devil, His plan for that person is wrecked. I suppose I keep referrring to my father the night he died, and appeared in my room, but one of his specific comments was “I’ve wrecked everything!”

It’s all very well speaking from the point of a preacher pontificating from a pulpit, but when God has to condemn someone eg an otherwise naive young lady who had an abortion, I don’t think He gets one bit of pleasure out of it. Nor is it His will, except insofar as she had the freedom to make that decision.

I think God is often frustrated. In fact, I think those saints who suffered most from what might be called “frustration as suffering” reflect God’s own suffering in this area.

Unless Mr. Hahn can clearly tell me what he means by God’s will is ultimately fulfilled one way or the other, I happen to disagree with him on this issue.
 
Bob_Crowley said:
I don’t think God’s will is always fulfilled. Certainly not in regard to the damnation of souls. “I take no delight in the death of the wicked”, is stated somewhere in the Old Testament.

I believe His plans are often frustrated. He may have plans for somebody to do certain things of critical importance, but then find that either by that person’s own choice, or the interference of others, spurred on by the devil, His plan for that person is wrecked. I suppose I keep referrring to my father the night he died, and appeared in my room, but one of his specific comments was “I’ve wrecked everything!”

It’s all very well speaking from the point of a preacher pontificating from a pulpit, but when God has to condemn someone eg an otherwise naive young lady who had an abortion, I don’t think He gets one bit of pleasure out of it. Nor is it His will, except insofar as she had the freedom to make that decision.

I think God is often frustrated. In fact, I think those saints who suffered most from what might be called “frustration as suffering” reflect God’s own suffering in this area.

Unless Mr. Hahn can clearly tell me what he means by God’s will is ultimately fulfilled one way or the other, I happen to disagree with him on this issue.
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I don’t think God condemns naive young women for having abortions. He condemns willful, intentional evil. His will is that we have free will, and therein lies the recipe for creation-in the form of us-to choose for or against Him. But He knows the end from the beginning and ultimately His will* is* done-after He’s allowed time-and grace, however He works that out for each of us- for naive young and old people to wise up.
 
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