Going back to male servers?

[Bl_Pope_Pius_IX]

I find this comment strange as altar servers in my part of the world all wear white robes with a hood. Who knows what they are wearing under their white robes. Girls aged 8 - 11 don’t by and large dress provocatively either. I have yet to see a girl of this age whom I would describe as ‘dressed provocatively,’ but perhaps they do in other cultures. I do see provocative clothing at Mass but not worn by the altar servers. Flip flops and short shorts don’t exactly present a problem here 'cos it’s too cold and wet.

Sadly, the girls at my OF Parish aged 8 - 11 (though there aren’t many, most are atleast 14) DO dress provocatively. However, I blame the parents for letting her go to Church in such an outfit. And they can’t bring up the “it’s too hot” card, cause I wear a suit and I’m fine. I thank God for winter, girls actually dress somewhat appropriately. But still, I know a few who wear flip flops…In the snow. I can hardly concentrate on the Organ while the “flip-flop” noises are going on.

So, how have you seen girls dressed provocatively if they are wearing white robes?

Sadly, ours are very thin. If you wear anything other than white underneath - everyone can see it. Most of the young ladies at my OF Parish wear tank tops, short shorts, and flip flops. Thus, that is the norm. Not to mention - I can see them vest in the Sacristy so I know what they wear underneath.

Are you also saying that boys don’t want to become altar servers because of what they have to wear rather than the girls are putting them off?

It may. I know it did for me for a bit, I prefer the Cassock and Surplice

When you say girls serving gives the wrong impression, are saying that girls on the altar places a sexual dimension on things, and you think girls on the altar make boys have sexual thoughts? In which case, the solution may be for men and boys to change their attitudes to girls and women, rather than remove the girls and women.

I wasn’t thinking sexually, I was thinking about reverence. It is not respectful to Christ, the Priest, the Parishioners, or themselves to wear what they do, it is shameful.

‘Not needed’ is also a poor argument.

They aren’t needed. Thus, why allow them if they are going to make a fuss. No use in purposefully stirring the pot.

~ Pius :knight1:

 

[minkymurph]

Firstly, to address sports. I think this is a cultural matter. In the United States, sports teams are still very much segregated by sex usually. It is law that if a male wants to participate on a generally female team, he may, and vice versa, but in most schools, boys and girls are segregated by default and mixing will not happen except upon request (or in nastier cases, lawsuits). Many “progressive” schools have started to change this completely, but most schools have not. I never was on a sports team for very long in high school, but I did notice the horrid treatment the boys on the football team gave one girl who decided she would join the team, and the shying-away some boys had towards it during that time. I mention this only to illustrate a common attitude here towards many situations, including serving at the altar; obviously the horrid treatment part wouldn’t apply in this case, but the shying-away would, and does.

Well then I appreciate the difference in your part of the world. Girls and boys participate in most sports together, including physical contact sports, up to 11-12. They are segregated teams or competitions then for obvious reasons, boys enter puberty and become infinitely stronger than girls. So with the best will in the world, it can’t happen. On a lighter note, I did on one occasion play in a mixed rugby match and was way over 12. It was a fun event for charity, so no one was taking it very seriously and the video clip of the match was hilarious. Unfortunately one of the guys also ended up with black eye he obtained from being tackled by female member of the opposing team and it took him forever to live it down. But being both a true man and a gentlemen, he didn’t fight back as hard as he would have had a man tackled him, and took it all his stride.

I do not and did not say that female servers are the only reason that priestly vocations have gone downhill, but it certainly is one of them.

It’s not having a more traditional view of Catholicism. It’s appreciating, respecting, and most importantly, acknowledging the fact that a great deal of priests have served at the altar before their decision on their vocation, and reserving that duty to young boys to perpetuate future vocations. To open this door to girls not only decreases the opportunities for boys, but it implies an invitation to priestly duty for girls.

I can see your point that we need a gateway to the vocation of the priesthood. However, I don’t see how girls being altar servers decreases opportunities for boys to become priests because the Catholic Church don’t ordain women. Therefore, it seems to make little odds to me whether girls become altar servers because only the boys are going to become priests. However, if boys and girls are segregated to a greater extent in your part of the world and the girl/boy culture is different, maybe boys do shy away from becoming altar servers 'cos girls do it. I would also disagree with your solution of going back to all-male altar servers. But then I would, wouldn’t I?

I thought you maybe saw my location, so that is why I thought you were referring to my country particularly. I’m sorry.

I appreciate you saying and I’ll take it in the spirit intended, but there’s really no need to say sorry 'cos I’m not that sensitive.

I wouldn’t know what kinds of views Irish men generally have toward women, but there’s no such thing as the “American view” on anything, whether that be religion, politics, social issues, etc. America is an extremely varied country… drive for an hour and it’s like another world in many cases. In many cases, we are forward thinkers, but in many others, we certainly are not. Depends on where you are, really.

Well, sometimes we forget that America is actually a continent and just a country as such. I know there’s ‘that other place’ in the continent of North America but we won’t mention that.

I don’t know that altar girls pose a problem to vocations in Ireland. Yes, my statement is based on assumption. But it’s an assumption that human nature is the same everywhere. As boys go through this “phase,” and as it most certainly happens irregardless of culture, I drew the line that since boys here shy away from altar service due to this, that boys in Ireland must do the same to some degree.

They may go through a similar phase but it’s handled and interpreted differently in different cultures. If you a boy shied away from doing something because there were girls doing it, he would be thought of as a bit of a wimp who can’t stand up to girls. However, if he shied away from something like ballet dancing or synchronized swimming for that reason no one would think he was a wimp.

You’re right, you didn’t use the term proud. I used it on my own because I used it in an earlier post, and I was alluding to it in the post in which you quoted me for ease of reading if anyone decided to read through all this stuff; I did it so people would equate your term and my term for the same thing easily.

That’s fair enough, and I was probably just being pedantic.

 

[minkymurph]

Sadly, the girls at my OF Parish aged 8 - 11 (though there aren’t many, most are atleast 14) DO dress provocatively. However, I blame the parents for letting her go to Church in such an outfit. And they can’t bring up the “it’s too hot” card, cause I wear a suit and I’m fine. I thank God for winter, girls actually dress somewhat appropriately. But still, I know a few who wear flip flops…In the snow. I can hardly concentrate on the Organ while the “flip-flop” noises are going on.

I would agree with that. It is their parents. I’m just finding it hard to imagine an 8 year old dressed ‘provocatively.’ Doesn’t bear thinking about. I would also say how kids dress becomes harder to manage as they get older, but an 8 year old shouldn’t be dressed provocatively AT ALL. Kids should be allowed to be kids. They grow up soon enough.

Flip flops in the snow? That’s just silly. :winter:

Sadly, ours are very thin. If you wear anything other than white underneath - everyone can see it.

I take your point.

I wasn’t thinking sexually, I was thinking about reverence. It is not respectful to Christ, the Priest, the Parishioners, or themselves to wear what they do, it is shameful.

Thank goodness you explained that. :coolinoff: I was having all sorts of horrendous ideas concerning what men may be thinking about 8 year old’s they think are dressed provocatively.

They aren’t needed. Thus, why allow them if they are going to make a fuss. No use in purposefully stirring the pot.

~ Pius :knight1:

Well, telling someone they can’t do something because they are simply ‘not needed’ isn’t exactly the most charitable thing in the world. We don’t tell people they can’t do things they would like to, and are sincere in wanting to do simply because they are ‘not needed.’

In addition, it’s not a case of allowing them, as they have already been allowed and are doing it. Do they make a fuss? What are they making a fuss about if they are already permitted to be altar servers?

 

[Bluegoat]

So, we still have no actual evidence that the female altar servers are causing the problems with vocations?

 

[minkymurph]

So, we still have no actual evidence that the female altar servers are causing the problems with vocations?

Nope. Other than based on their observations, some people are of the opinion that some boys shy away from becoming altar servers in their particular part of the world or Parish because the female altar servers put them off doing so.

 

[mirandajb]

Another novelty born of disobedience. Malachi Martin speaks of this.

youtube.com/watch?v=VzYY7GG7t4E

Thank you for the post. I have several books written by Malachi Martin…must get down to reading them. God bless.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

Then perhaps we don’t need altar servers at all.’

Technically you don’t since priests can do everything the altar servers can do. The altar server position we have today is actually not a very old custom like the office of Acolyte. The office of Acolyte was instituted as a minor order for those men (and only men) becoming priests. I believe the progression for a seminarian was: Acolyte, Sub-deacon, Deacon, and then Priest. In my honest opinion we only need to look to the reason for why the office of Acolyte was created in order to know the reason for why the position of altar server was created (encourage vocations to the priesthood) and to what demographic this position was intended to influence (boys). To deny that this is the reason for why the postion of altar server was created is just silly.

 

[BellsSmells]

Girls are more likely to wear flip flops, short-shorts, tight shirts. They are more likely than not to wear provokative clothing. Trust me, I see it almost every sunday on the servers at my OF Parish. But it comes down to this:

It is not needed to have girls on the Altar.

Anything a girl can do, a boy can and ought to do. I’m not even sure how a Cassock and Surplice seems like a skirt and shirt, I always thought they were manlier than the alb and cincture .

Also, to say that the belief that boys do not want to serve with girls seems to be an excuse, is false. I was the same way when I was around eight or nine and this IS the case with a few boys I have tried to recruit (that and them saying they don’t like the white dress you wear - that of which I am in agreement with). But girls serving just gives the wrong impression to young men and to repeat my previous point:

It is not needed to have girls on the Altar.

~ Pius :knight1:

You just shifted the conversation to another subject. If servers are not properly attired (and I would suggest that boys are at least every bit as guilty of doing this as girl.) then deal with that problem. Stop the excuses and get to work.

A short/lacy surplice (which renders the cassock to look very skirt-like) is hardly manly looking. It doesn’t bother me now but it did as a 9 year old.

 

[Corki]

So, we still have no actual evidence that the female altar servers are causing the problems with vocations?

I don’t think any one claims that female altar servers cause the problems with vocations. It’s more about giving boys every opportunity to consider whether they have a vocation. If having girls at the altar keeps boys from interest in altar serving, that will keep those boys from that oportunity. If having girls in the mix keeps the priest or bishop from addressing vocations with gatherings of servers, that’s another opportunity lost.

Sure, there are many other ways that boys and young men are exposed to the possibility of a priestly vocation. But it may not be wise to shut this one off.

The problem has many causes but it may be, in some parishes or dioceses, that one way to clear out the noise that keeps our boys from hearing a vocation is to create a better environment for altar servers.

 

[Bl_Pope_Pius_IX]

You just shifted the conversation to another subject. If servers are not properly attired (and I would suggest that boys are at least every bit as guilty of doing this as girl.) then deal with that problem. Stop the excuses and get to work.

A short/lacy surplice (which renders the cassock to look very skirt-like) is hardly manly looking. It doesn’t bother me now but it did as a 9 year old.

No, I didn’t shift it to another subject, and here is why. For some reason, if you call out a boy to be more “manly”, it is acceptable. But call out a woman for bing more ladylike and your sexist! I whole heartedly agree with MinkyMurph (see below) that kids should be kids, and stop dressing like “Kesha” or some half naked, drugged up “celebrity”. Boys, their only problem that I’ve seen is sneakers. Sometimes long shorts, but not usually. No excuses were made by me, and I never stopped working.

At my EF Parish, we don’t have lacy surplices. Our surplices are shorter for younger kids, and longer (past the waist) for older kids.

I would agree with that. It is their parents. I’m just finding it hard to imagine an 8 year old dressed ‘provocatively.’ Doesn’t bear thinking about. I would also say how kids dress becomes harder to manage as they get older, but an 8 year old shouldn’t be dressed provocatively AT ALL. Kids should be allowed to be kids. They grow up soon enough.

Flip flops in the snow? That’s just silly. :winter:

Again, most of our girls are plenty older. Most around 14. Short shorts, tight shirts (or lose tank tops), and the dreaded flip flops. And yes, it is very silly for them to wear them in winter, but now that I think of it, The winter wasn’t incredibly bad the last year. So I haven’t seen them in the winter for a while.

Thank goodness you explained that. :coolinoff: I was having all sorts of horrendous ideas concerning what men may be thinking about 8 year old’s they think are dressed provocatively.

I realized that once you brought it to my attention.

Well, telling someone they can’t do something because they are simply ‘not needed’ isn’t exactly the most charitable thing in the world. We don’t tell people they can’t do things they would like to, and are sincere in wanting to do simply because they are ‘not needed.’

There are plenty of other ways to serving the Altar as a girl. One is just by being a nice and attentive young lady in the pew, setting an example from there.

In addition, it’s not a case of allowing them, as they have already been allowed and are doing it. Do they make a fuss? What are they making a fuss about if they are already permitted to be altar servers?

They aren’t allowed in the Diocese of Lincoln, or in the Cathedral of the Archdiocese of Phoenix, or in Parishes all around the US.

 

[True_Mass]

The acolytes are extensions of the priest’s hands. The priest is Christ who is male. Having a different gender be the hands of the body makes no sense. Besides this, as has been previously pointed out, 3 Popes condemned the practice as evil.

 

[At_Trent]

In these discussions, no liberal will admit he is wrong, nor will the orthodox Catholic be proven wrong.

As the good chap Chesterton said

“Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to that arrogant oligarchy who merely happen to be walking around.”

 

[Walking_Home]

In these discussions, no liberal will admit he is wrong, nor will the orthodox Catholic be proven wrong.****

As the good chap Chesterton said

“Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to that arrogant oligarchy who merely happen to be walking around.”

---

Considering it is Rome – who has approved of girls/women serving – in what camp would Rome be.

 

[Corki]

---

Considering it is Rome – who has approved of girls/women serving – in what camp would Rome be.

Rome has said that it is good for boys to serve at the altar and that this is to be encouraged. RS also says that, in some cases, girls can be permitted.

It’s not exactly a ringing endoresement for girl altar servers, more of a grudging permission.

 

[Bl_Pope_Pius_IX]

Rome has said that it is good for boys to serve at the altar and that this is to be encouraged. RS also says that, in some cases, girls can be permitted.

It’s not exactly a ringing endoresement for girl altar servers, more of a grudging permission.

And even then, they have allowed the Diocese of Lincoln (which has soaring vocations) to go to an all-male sanctuary.

~ Pius :knight1:

 

[Corki]

And even then, they have allowed the Diocese of Lincoln (which has soaring vocations) to go to an all-male sanctuary.

~ Pius :knight1:

Along with dozens of dioceses around the world. The Church is not just North America. There are whole countries which only use boys for altar service.

 

[minkymurph]

No, I didn’t shift it to another subject, and here is why. For some reason, if you call out a boy to be more “manly”, it is acceptable. But call out a woman for bing more ladylike and your sexist! I whole heartedly agree with MinkyMurph (see below) that kids should be kids, and stop dressing like “Kesha” or some half naked, drugged up “celebrity”. Boys, their only problem that I’ve seen is sneakers. Sometimes long shorts, but not usually. No excuses were made by me, and I never stopped working.

The first thing I am going to do is apologize for long posts, but it’s the only way I feel I can truly express myself and were I stand, and I would like to that posters in advance for having the patience and tolerance to go with my flow. I’m all for productive dialogue. Productive dialogue can involve ruffling a few feathers, but can worth it.

To explain were I stand, I would not categorize myself as a ‘feminist’ at all. I hate ‘labels,’ but I also hate sexist attitudes to women, and it is very often the case women are more sexist than men are. As a woman, I regularly visit the hairdressers and it is my sad misfortune to find the only reading material available is total and utter tripe. (Anyone want me to explain what tripe is? ) Every page has adverts for plastic surgery, diets, Posh Spice and other so called ‘celebrities’ having fat removed, laser treatment following the birth of a baby, hiring personal trainers at £4 000 a week to get back to a size zero a week after having a baby while three ‘nannies’ look after the baby? Any wonder young girls are anorexic, having plastic surgery when they are beautiful as they are? Get with the real world! Women who have just had a baby should be putting their efforts into bonding with their child, and not being a size zero. In addition, do the editor’s of these magazines think this is all women want to read and have the intelligence to read? Give me a magazine on sport, history, or a good autobiography any day! As for daytime tv, do people at home during the day have no intelligence? Yes, I am ranting but please grant me a bit of licence, is it any wonder? I have serious concerns for young girls in this regard, and serious concerns in relation to how young boys perceive them. Will you please stop telling young girls they have to be like this in order to be attractive, and being physically attractive is the be all and end all? There’s nothing wrong with looking after yourself and looking your best but come on! You don’t have to be like celebrities who don’t live in the real world, and stop telling boys this is what they should expect.

I realized that once you brought it to my attention.

Thank you for saying that. Demonstrates the fruits of productive dialogue. I believe that as Catholics, we should promote healthy and balanced views of gender and sexuality. One thing I do see as a problem to is objections to female altar servers being put forward that portray women in a derogatory or inferior light. Your comment tells me you understand were I’m coming from, and I’m happy to expand on it for the purpose of developing greater understanding of contrasting opinions, and promote unity.

There are plenty of other ways to serving the Altar as a girl. One is just by being a nice and attentive young lady in the pew, setting an example from there.

This is were you and I may have a difference of opinion. To me, being feminine does not constitute keeping your mouth shut and looking pretty while the men do the real business. I know your saying it’s one example, but I would say it’s a bad example of what it means to be feminine. Want to discuss why?

 

[minkymurph]

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Considering it is Rome – who has approved of girls/women serving – in what camp would Rome be.

Depends who’s opinion they are validating at the time.

 

[minkymurph]

Along with dozens of dioceses around the world. The Church is not just North America. There are whole countries which only use boys for altar service.

And there are whole countries which use girls and boys.

 

[Tsuwano]

I believe that being allowed to serve the priest at the altar, whether one is male or female, encourages a deeper faith life and can lead to holiness. This is a good thing and we should encourage it for all young people in our parishes. It is true that serving at the altar can lead a young man to consider a priestly vocation, but not necessarily so. He may just as well consider being a fireman. It does not follow that forbidding female servers will increase vocations to the priesthood. In my parish we have male and female servers in equal number and they attend workshop sessions to learn how to work with one another and serve the community faithfully. Returning to masses with male servers only may be nostalgic for some, but it closes one avenue of holiness to half of the children in the parish and I don’t think that is beneficial to the Church in the long run.