Going back to male servers?

[Giuseppe_Gavino]

She would have been present. Passover meals were family events.

-Tim-

She was not mentioned in any of the Gospel accounts as being there at the table, nor has Sacred Tradition (that I’m aware of) mentioned her being at the table. The reasons for this are very significant since this was not only when Christ instituted the Sacrament of the Eucharist but also when He instituted the Sacrament of Holy Orders as well. If Mary was at the table and participating then the sacrament of Holy Orders would have been applied to her as well.

 

[Rence]

She was not mentioned in any of the Gospel accounts as being there at the table, nor has Sacred Tradition (that I’m aware of) mentioned her being at the table. The reasons for this are very significant since this was not only when Christ instituted the Sacrament of the Eucharist but also when He instituted the Sacrament of Holy Orders as well. If Mary was at the table and participating then the sacrament of Holy Orders would have been applied to her as well.

Maybe that’s why she wasn’t mentioned. It would have been quite a “shanda” for a Jewish man not to take care of his mother on the Passover. It was a family affair, and she was his widowed mother, without other siblings.

It is written in the Bible, that not every detail was written due to the enormity of information. There could have even been other people there. And does it matter? Whatever else happened, whoever else was there or not there, it doesn’t change what happened at the Lord’s table with His Apostles.

 

[Melchior_1]

Maybe that’s why she wasn’t mentioned. It would have been quite a “shanda” for a Jewish man not to take care of his mother on the Passover. It was a family affair, and she was his widowed mother, without other siblings.

It is written in the Bible, that not every detail was written due to the enormity of information. There could have even been other people there. And does it matter? Whatever else happened, whoever else was there or not there, it doesn’t change what happened at the Lord’s table with His Apostles.

Especially if she was chilling in the background with other ladies, taking care of some of the other business.

Which would actually proceed to make the women like the original Sacristans.

 

[DaveBj]

The problem could also be that the men of the parish who could serve won’t because there is (to me, at least) an unwritten concept the servers should always be boys rather than middle aged men.
If there are men who are willing to serve and set an example, I would wager that there would be more boys following in those footsteps.
I know in some parishes, the parents are the ones forcing the issue of female servers. If the priest relents to those wishes, a distinct shift materialises in the parish when it comes to boys voluntarily wanting to serve on the altar.

I, a 65-year-old geezer who converted at age 60, serve at weekday morning Mass whenever our deacon is out of town. I would gladly serve Sunday Masses, but there are plenty of kids in our parish, male and female, who are ready to do so.

She was not mentioned in any of the Gospel accounts as being there at the table, nor has Sacred Tradition (that I’m aware of) mentioned her being at the table. The reasons for this are very significant since this was not only when Christ instituted the Sacrament of the Eucharist but also when He instituted the Sacrament of Holy Orders as well. If Mary was at the table and participating then the sacrament of Holy Orders would have been applied to her as well.

This is Argument from Silence, a well-known logical fallacy. From the evidence in our hands, we can’t say for sure that Mary was there, and we can’t say for sure that she was not. The only thing that we can say for sure is that the narratives and the dialogs revolve around the relationship between Jesus and the Apostles. Whether there were others eating and looking on, we simply don’t know.

 

[Giuseppe_Gavino]

That would be my understanding as well.

In addition, who cooked the Lamb and did the dishes?

Luke gives a better description of who was sent to prepare the Passover meal and in Luke Mary is not mentioned as one of those sent.

[BIBLEDRB]Luke 22:7-14 [/BIBLEDRB]

There is no fallacy in my argument.

And -

If we follow the line of reasoning there were no women present at the Last Supper, should women be present at Mass or receive the Eucharist at all?

No this is not my line of reasoning since I said Mary was not at the Last supper table nor did she act as a server during the Last Supper since the Gospels do not record her doing so. They also (as pointed out above) do not record her as being one of those sent by Christ to prepare the Passover meal. Please read carefully my first response where I said Mary was not at the Last Supper table since this was not implying that Mary was not at the Last Supper at all. If she was there then she was participating in the same manner as the rest of us who are neither the celebrant nor the server.

 

[TimothyH]

Maybe that’s why she wasn’t mentioned. It would have been quite a “shanda” for a Jewish man not to take care of his mother on the Passover. It was a family affair, and she was his widowed mother, without other siblings.

It is written in the Bible, that not every detail was written due to the enormity of information. There could have even been other people there. And does it matter? Whatever else happened, whoever else was there or not there, it doesn’t change what happened at the Lord’s table with His Apostles.

I betcha the eastern rite guys have a tradtion of her being there. The eastern rites seem to have a tradition for every moment of Mary’s life and then some.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

Proof that Mary was there, the queen-mother seated at the right hand of her son the king, as one would suspect.



I think she kinda looks like the mona lisa. What do you guys think?

-Tim-

 

[Melchior_1]

Dudes, there’s no way Mary was at the Last Supper, it’s not written down.

Just like she wasn’t assumed into Heaven, cause that’s not in the Gospels either!!

/sarcasm.

 

[mirandajb]

I am not an MCP but in the Bible,God picks males for His major work. So He does females too but in different roles. Having been a server in my younger days, I totally disagree with the inclusion of females to serve Mass.

 

[Bl_Pope_Pius_IX]

I pray for a return to a male-only sanctuary. I’m trying to persuade my Pastor to make it male-only, I would be very happy and I think the rest of the (semi moderate-conservative) Parish would be as well.

~ Pius :knight1:

 

[TimothyH]

I am not an MCP but in the Bible,God picks males for His major work. So He does females too but in different roles. Having been a server in my younger days, I totally disagree with the inclusion of females to serve Mass.

God picked a woman to do the most magnificent work that any human being has ever done - bring God himself into creation as man.

Mary is the mother of Jesus and as the Eucharist is Jesus, Mary serves at the altar at every Mass, making Jesus Christ - grace himself - sacramentally present in time and space.

Whether you like it or not, you are never going to remove that one female altar server. You can put all the boys in the world up there at the altar and make every woman go 1000 miles away, and Mary is there, making Christ present, as she has always done and as she always will do.

There may be valid liturgical, theological and disciplinary reason to not want female altar servers, but a female is there and there isn’t a thing anyone can do about it.

-Tim-

 

[Giuseppe_Gavino]

Dudes, there’s no way Mary was at the Last Supper, it’s not written down.

Just like she wasn’t assumed into Heaven, cause that’s not in the Gospels either!!

/sarcasm.

I’m glad there is an acceptance of different opinions in this thread.

All of you need to reread my responses because all of you have completely misunderstood them. You either point out where I said Mary was not at the Last Supper or you apologize for being uncharitable towards me because I feel like I’m being bullied in this thread for stating my views and the reasons for them.

For clarification I will list my reasons:

• In the Gospels I have found no evidence for women altar servers.
• In Sacred Tradition I have found no evidence for women altars servers (which dude if it wasnt written in the Scriptures it should have be found in Sacrad Tradition! cowabunga!!!
• In the long standing [t]raditions of the Church I have not found any evidence of women altar servers.
• IMHO I have not found any reason to have women altar servers.
• IMHO I have not found anyone able to give a good reason as to why women altar servers should be used.

 

[Giuseppe_Gavino]

God picked a woman to do the most magnificent work that any human being has ever done - bring God himself into creation as man.

Mary is the mother of Jesus and as the Eucharist is Jesus, Mary serves at the altar at every Mass, making Jesus Christ - grace himself - sacramentally present in time and space.

Whether you like it or not, you are never going to remove that one female altar server. You can put all the boys in the world up there at the altar and make every woman go 1000 miles away, and Mary is there, making Christ present, as she has always done and as she always will do.

There may be valid liturgical, theological and disciplinary reason to not want female altar servers, but a female is there and there isn’t a thing anyone can do about it.

-Tim-

How is disagreeing with women altar servers an attack on Marys role? Your making it sound like were diminishing Mary’s importance as Mother of God and Queen of Heaven and Earth just because we think there should be return to male only atar servers.

 

[minkymurph]

She was not mentioned in any of the Gospel accounts as being there at the table, nor has Sacred Tradition (that I’m aware of) mentioned her being at the table.

The Gospels don’t mention Jesus meeting his mother when he was carrying his the Cross, neither do they mention Veronica. Why do the author’s of the Gospels choose to leave this information out? We know a group of women traveled with Jesus. Only one Gospel mentions them.

The reasons for this are very significant since this was not only when Christ instituted the Sacrament of the Eucharist but also when He instituted the Sacrament of Holy Orders as well. If Mary was at the table and participating then the sacrament of Holy Orders would have been applied to her as well.

Not necessarily. We cannot assume Mary was not present simply because she is not mentioned in the Gospels. Neither can it be assumed she would have received the Sacrament of Holy Orders simply because she was present. None of the Gospels outline every detail of Last Supper. Many things may have happened that are not recorded. It cannot be assumed the author’s of Gospels omit certain details in order for us to know what not to believe, and the account of the Last Supper was not written for the purpose of teaching us Mary wasn’t present and girls can’t be altar servers.

 

[Giuseppe_Gavino]

The Gospels don’t mention Jesus meeting his mother when he was carrying his the Cross, neither do they mention Veronica. Why do the author’s of the Gospels choose to leave this information out? We know a group of women traveled with Jesus. Only one Gospel mentions them.

Already answered this, since it is not mentioned in Sacred Tradition either. I did not only look towrads the Written Word but also the Oral Tradition and have found nothing to support women altar servers. My argument is not based on Scripture Alone mentality so all of you can drop that ridiculous charge.

Not necessarily. We cannot assume Mary was not present simply because she is not mentioned in the Gospels. Neither can it be assumed she would have received the Sacrament of Holy Orders simply because she was present. None of the Gospels outline every detail of Last Supper. Many things may have happened that are not recorded. It cannot be assumed the author’s of Gospels omit certain details in order for us to know what not to believe, and the account of the Last Supper was not written for the purpose of teaching us Mary wasn’t present and girls can’t be altar servers.

Already addressed this, thank you.

 

[minkymurph]

I’m glad there is an acceptance of different opinions in this thread.

All of you need to reread my responses because all of you have completely misunderstood them. You either point out where I said Mary was not at the Last Supper or you apologize for being uncharitable towards me because I feel like I’m being bullied in this thread for stating my views and the reasons for them.

Post 2 - You said she was not at the Last Supper table with the Apostles. Perhaps you did not intend to suggest she did not attend the Last Supper at all, but you can understand why people would think this is what you were implying. So, to clarify and clear up any misunderstandings, do you think Mary attended the Last Supper, or do you think she didn’t?

For clarification I will list my reasons:

• In the Gospels I have found no evidence for women altar servers.

Given that there was only one celebration of the Eucharist in the Gospels that’s not surprising. I stand to be corrected, but I can’t think of any passage of scripture that outlines the celebration of the Eucharist.

• In Sacred Tradition I have found no evidence for women altars servers (which dude if it wasnt written in the Scriptures it should have be found in Sacrad Tradition!
  In the long standing [t]raditions of the Church I have not found any evidence of women altar servers.

The Eucharist was celebrated in a very different way in the early Church, and the liturgy of the Eucharist developed over time. There’s evidence women were deacons, and evidence woman had a more active role in the early Church.

• IMHO I have not found any reason to have women altar servers.
• IMHO I have not found anyone able to give a good reason as to why women altar servers should be used.

Not going there. Wouldn’t touch this one with barge pole.

 

[minkymurph]

Already answered this, since it is not mentioned in Sacred Tradition either. I did not only look towrads the Written Word but also the Oral Tradition and have found nothing to support women altar servers. My argument is not based on Scripture Alone mentality so all of you can drop that ridiculous charge.

May I politely point out that was not under the impression your argument was based on a scripture alone mentality, am I am not aware of ‘charging’ you with anything, and it was not my intention to do so.

 

[minkymurph]

I betcha the eastern rite guys have a tradtion of her being there. The eastern rites seem to have a tradition for every moment of Mary’s life and then some.

-Tim-

I know there’s a tradition that the Jesus appeared to her privately after his resurrection. Who knows what else one might find?

 

[severus68]

Both of my daughters are altar servers, as am I. I am proud of them.

I have a picture of my older daughter (14) from the front page of our diocesean newspaper serving at a Mass with 1100 people present and eleven priests. She was one of only two servers that day and the priests were all coming up to both girls telling them what a wonderful job they did. Not a single boy volunteered.

Every time I see my youngest daughter (10) serve, with either boys or girls of any age, she is kneeling upright, hands in the correct position, paying attention in case the priest needs something, bowing her head at the name of Jesus, uniting herself to the priest by crossing herself when he crosses himself and sitting and standing when he sits and stand while the rest of the kids look around and pick their noses.

It’s nonsense that boys shy away from serving when girls a present. Boys are shying away because their mother’s are bringing them to Mass without their fathers, who are off in the woods during hunting season or too busy riding their new mountain bike to bother being spiritual fathers to their children. My daughter’s serve because their father serves and that speaks to the point made by SVP and Contra Mundum. Arimathean Ministries are a great way to serve the parish and set a wonderful example.

I’m super proud of my two altar servers. It is my hope one day that the three of us can serve at a Mass as a family. How cool would that be?

-Tim-

Great post. I can picture your two daughters serving at mass.

 

[minkymurph]

o this is not my line of reasoning since I said Mary was not at the Last supper table nor did she act as a server during the Last Supper since the Gospels do not record her doing so. They also (as pointed out above) do not record her as being one of those sent by Christ to prepare the Passover meal. Please read carefully my first response where I said Mary was not at the Last Supper table since this was not implying that Mary was not at the Last Supper at all. If she was there then she was participating in the same manner as the rest of us who are neither the celebrant nor the server.

The Gospels don’t record anyone other than Jesus himself acting as a ‘server’ of the bread and wine.

From what I can remember, the Apostles weren’t that hot on ‘serving’ each other, which is why Jesus washed their feet.