Going back to male servers?

[Giuseppe_Gavino]

I agree comparisons such as the above are ridiculous.

I disagree that it is ridiculous to base customs and practices for liturgical norms off of Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and Church history, but then again I will admit I’m probably the minority in this regard.

 

[stevusmagnus]

papalencyclicals.net/Ben14/b14allat.htm

Pope Benedict XIV: Allatae Sunt, 1755

“Women Assisting at Mass Pope Gelasius in his ninth letter (chap. 26) to the bishops of Lucania condemned the evil practice which had been introduced of women serving the priest at the celebration of Mass. Since this abuse had spread to the Greeks, Innocent IV strictly forbade it in his letter to the bishop of Tusculum: “Women should not dare to serve at the altar; they should be altogether refused this ministry.” We too have forbidden this practice in the same words in Our oft-repeated constitution Etsi Pastoralis, sect. 6, no. 21.”

 

[ProVobis]

If it were not a big issue, it would not have been** condemned over and over again by Popes** until, suddenly, magically, it was tolerated.

If this is true then this allowance/tolerance should be immediately repealed.

As Vatican II noted, the weight to be given such teaching is “according to the mind and the will manifested; this is shown especially by the nature of the documents, by the frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or by the tenor of the verbal expression.” Thus, **more weight would have to be given to something taught many times by successive popes than to something taught once by one pope. **

ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=564105&Pg=Forum8&Pgnu=1&recnu=3

 

[Rence]

papalencyclicals.net/Ben14/b14allat.htm

Pope Benedict XIV: Allatae Sunt, 1755

“Women Assisting at Mass Pope Gelasius in his ninth letter (chap. 26) to the bishops of Lucania condemned the evil practice which had been introduced of women serving the priest at the celebration of Mass. Since this abuse had spread to the Greeks, Innocent IV strictly forbade it in his letter to the bishop of Tusculum: “Women should not dare to serve at the altar; they should be altogether refused this ministry.” We too have forbidden this practice in the same words in Our oft-repeated constitution Etsi Pastoralis, sect. 6, no. 21.”

That’s not an infallible statement, and was in 1755. Girls are allowed to serve Mass now. So it’s kinda pointless to point to something from that long ago and apply it today. A pope wrote an encyclical saying it was okay to burn Lutherans, but we wouldn’t think of doing that today. A pope wrote a list of forbidden things, one of which is the separation of Church and State; another was religious freedom. We don’t apply those teachings today.

 

[ProVobis]

If it were not a big issue, it would not have been** condemned over and over again by Popes** until, suddenly, magically, it was tolerated.

If this is true then this allowance/tolerance should be immediately repealed.

As Vatican II noted, the weight to be given such teaching is “according to the mind and the will manifested; this is shown especially by the nature of the documents, by the frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or by the tenor of the verbal expression.” Thus, **more weight would have to be given to something taught many times by successive popes than to something taught once by one pope. **

ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=564105&Pg=Forum8&Pgnu=1&recnu=3

 

[BellsSmells]

The problem could also be that the men of the parish who could serve won’t because there is (to me, at least) an unwritten concept the servers should always be boys rather than middle aged men.
If there are men who are willing to serve and set an example, I would wager that there would be more boys following in those footsteps.
I know in some parishes, the parents are the ones forcing the issue of female servers. If the priest relents to those wishes, a distinct shift materialises in the parish when it comes to boys voluntarily wanting to serve on the altar.

That’s very, very true. Adult male servers are more common in some other countries. We have them at my parish only after there were essentially zero children at two of the Masses. It has worked out well.

 

[BellsSmells]

Let me ask this. What would happen if the Pope said that only males could serve at the altar? Would there be massive compliance? Would there be a massive outcry? Or would his edict be largely ignored?

My guess in something like 10-20% of places it would give those in charge the cover to do exactly what they want to do but did not have the guts to do, allow only male altar servers. Another 10-20 would be good troops. They might no like it, but they could comply without complaint. The other 60-80% would simply ignore the edict.

 

[YoungTradCath]

The fact of the matter is that young boys don’t want to serve mass with girls, because it makes them feel “girly” do do what the girls are doing. I don’t see how that’s difficult to understand.

The use of altar girls is one of the factors that has led to a sharp decline in priestly vocations.

 

[minkymurph]

The fact of the matter is that young boys don’t want to serve mass with girls, because it makes them feel “girly” do do what the girls are doing. I don’t see how that’s difficult to understand.

Poor them. How awful for a boy to do something a girl would do, and do something with girls. Yuckee! You may have a point. I can hear echo’s of my ten year old son’s views of the world in that statement.

The use of altar girls is one of the factors that has led to a sharp decline in priestly vocations.

Why do you think it is the use of altar girls that has led to a sharp decline in priestly vocations? I asked this question earlier in the thread, but I don’t think anyone has answered to date.

 

[minkymurph]

If it were not a big issue, it would not have been condemned over and over again by Popes until, suddenly, magically, it was tolerated.

It’s not a big issue in comparison to what I was talking about. I don’t think you can equate the issue of altar girls with issues that resulted from the Penal Laws in Ireland, and in the second century people being put to death for celebrating Mass. Anyone who can doesn’t have enough problems.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Poor them. How awful for a boy to do something a girl would do, and do something with girls. Yuckee! You may have a point. I can hear echo’s of my ten year old son’s views of the world in that statement.

Why do you think it is the use of altar girls that has led to a sharp decline in priestly vocations? I asked this question earlier in the thread, but I don’t think anyone has answered to date.

Yes. Young boys are immature. Even adolescents would react, to an extent, the same way. I myself am an adolescent.

I think the use of altar girls is one of the reasons that has led to a decline in priestly vocations. When girls volunteer for serving at the altar, boys, whether out of immaturity or something else, don’t volunteer nearly as much, unless they’re voluntold by their parents or something. When boys don’t serve at the altar, they’re missing a critical step in making the decision to become a priest. If a boy is on the edge and he is offered serving at the altar to “try it out” and he actually does it, then that boy may very well go through and become a priest. It’s like job shadowing. However, if the young boy is like “eewie” and doesn’t do it because his sister is doing it, then he loses that experience, an experience that may well, as I said, make him want to become a priest.

This is primarily the concern of the nature of young boys. They don’t want to do things that girls are doing, because either directly or indirectly, it feminizes them in a way. I’d venture to say that, as a male myself, this continues for a male’s entire life, but perhaps lessening a bit with age. Males are concerned with maintaining a manly image. Serving at the altar with girls, in some ways, threatens this image, especially for young boys. Now we can argue that this is just pride and blah blah blah, but the fact of the matter is that we aren’t going to change the nature of young boys by arguing about it.

Therefore, I stand by my opinion that the institution of altar girls is one of the reasons that there has been a drop in priestly vocations, because, through their own nature, it makes boys not want to do it, depriving them of the one experience they can have of doing some of the things the priest does.

 

[Bluegoat]

I just feel the duties of a server promote vocations to the priesthood which is why they were implemented in the first place. When it comes down to it a Priest can do everything needed at the altar. Offices like acolyte were instituted as minor orders in the Latin Rite (which I don’t know if that is still the case) to seminarians as a step in their progression towards priestly ordination. As far as I know the position of an acolyte is no longer considered a minor order in the Latin Rite and that the duties are performed by altar servers in present times. Yet should we view the position of an altar server as being instituted for any other reason than to promote the same spirit for which the office of acolyte was instituted, which was to increase a seminarians desire to be ordained as a priest?

To be honest I think we run a huge risk of giving some women a false hope that one day there will be women priests in the Catholic Church. Sure not all women are going to have this feeling of wanting to be a priest but why even risk it?

Like a lot of things, only time will tell.

There have, I believe, for a very long time been female altar servers in convents and such. Which seems to me to indicate that it has long been the case that having a female altar server is preferable to none, and that the main purpose is not to create vocations, but to actually help the priest.

 

[Bluegoat]

And who says that it ends there. Women can still lector or cantor/choir. There are many ways to serve

I don’t know - I seem to recall hearing that women were discouraged from these kinds of roles at some traditional Catholic parishes. It seems that they think women should only be ironing linens and baking lemon squares.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The fact of the matter is that young boys don’t want to serve mass with girls, because it makes them feel “girly” do do what the girls are doing. I don’t see how that’s difficult to understand.

The use of altar girls is one of the factors that has led to a sharp decline in priestly vocations.

Can you prove this? Because anything you do now, girls do it as well. If boys cannot get over this serving the altar, what of the place of work? “Oh, I can’t be a programmer because there are girl programmers. Its too girly.” “Oh, I can’t be an accountant, there are girl accountants. Its too girly.”

In our Eastern parish, we have little boys who from time to time come and serve. But you can tell they are not interested. We do not have female altar servers. Fact is, boys are more interested to be wasting their time playing the xbox or some peewee league than serving at the altar. I don’t see it as true that the girls are scaring the boys off because we don’t have girls and the boys are still scared off.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Why do you think it is the use of altar girls that has led to a sharp decline in priestly vocations? I asked this question earlier in the thread, but I don’t think anyone has answered to date.

No, its the secularism of society and the concentration on acquiring material wealth, thus getting a high-paying secular job rather than a simple and humble vocation like the priesthood.

 

[Giuseppe_Gavino]

There have, I believe, for a very long time been female altar servers in convents and such. Which seems to me to indicate that it has long been the case that having a female altar server is preferable to none, and that the main purpose is not to create vocations, but to actually help the priest.

I dont believe this is the case but I would like to see it if you have a source.

 

[Bluegoat]

Yes. Young boys are immature. Even adolescents would react, to an extent, the same way. I myself am an adolescent.

I think the use of altar girls is one of the reasons that has led to a decline in priestly vocations. When girls volunteer for serving at the altar, boys, whether out of immaturity or something else, don’t volunteer nearly as much, unless they’re voluntold by their parents or something. When boys don’t serve at the altar, they’re missing a critical step in making the decision to become a priest. If a boy is on the edge and he is offered serving at the altar to “try it out” and he actually does it, then that boy may very well go through and become a priest. It’s like job shadowing. However, if the young boy is like “eewie” and doesn’t do it because his sister is doing it, then he loses that experience, an experience that may well, as I said, make him want to become a priest.

This is primarily the concern of the nature of young boys. They don’t want to do things that girls are doing, because either directly or indirectly, it feminizes them in a way. I’d venture to say that, as a male myself, this continues for a male’s entire life, but perhaps lessening a bit with age. Males are concerned with maintaining a manly image. Serving at the altar with girls, in some ways, threatens this image, especially for young boys. Now we can argue that this is just pride and blah blah blah, but the fact of the matter is that we aren’t going to change the nature of young boys by arguing about it.

Therefore, I stand by my opinion that the institution of altar girls is one of the reasons that there has been a drop in priestly vocations, because, through their own nature, it makes boys not want to do it, depriving them of the one experience they can have of doing some of the things the priest does.

You haven’t done what was asked here I think - in that you haven’t given any evidence. What evidence do you have that female altar servers are causing fewer vocations? Thinking it may be so doesn’t make it true. There are many other things that have happened that seem likely to have created problems with vocations. And remember correlation does not mean causation.

I’ve been in parishes with lots of vocations, and ones without. They all had mixed altar servers, which suggests to me that servers were not a big part of the reason for the difference.

 

[PJM]

=sistermouse;8353113]I read, with intrest, the following article and just wondered what others may think about it.

catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2011/08/25/the-1994-statement-permitting-girl-servers-was-a-mistaken-tactical-retreat-which-led-to-a-fall-in-priestly-vocations-it’s-time-to-withdraw-it/

For those who may be unaware; females servers were an unauthorized innovation of Vatican II.

Removal of Communion rails tore down the barriers to female gender in the sanctuary. By itself it is NOT IMO a huge issue, except for the fact that it does have some effects on priestly vocations,and it was gained “by force.”.with an After the fact authorization.

 

[JGMendes4049]

My parish isn’t only males per se, but in practice, there are only two female altar servers.

 

[minkymurph]

I think the use of altar girls is one of the reasons that has led to a decline in priestly vocations. When girls volunteer for serving at the altar, boys, whether out of immaturity or something else, don’t volunteer nearly as much, unless they’re voluntold by their parents or something.

And on what is this opinion based? The fact that it puts you off? Or the fact that it puts all boys off? And your way of dealing with the immature attitudes of young, or adolescent boys towards girls is remove girls from the scene so boys can feel better about it?

When boys don’t serve at the altar, they’re missing a critical step in making the decision to become a priest. If a boy is on the edge and he is offered serving at the altar to “try it out” and he actually does it, then that boy may very well go through and become a priest. It’s like job shadowing. However, if the young boy is like “eewie” and doesn’t do it because his sister is doing it, then he loses that experience, an experience that may well, as I said, make him want to become a priest.

I know plenty of men who were altar servers and didn’t become priests. I also know priests who were not altar servers. Is recruitment to the priesthood the only purpose of being an altar server? You shouldn’t do it for any other reason?

This is primarily the concern of the nature of young boys.

They don’t want to do things that girls are doing, because either directly or indirectly, it feminizes them in a way. I’d venture to say that, as a male myself, this continues for a male’s entire life, but perhaps lessening a bit with age. Males are concerned with maintaining a manly image. Serving at the altar with girls, in some ways, threatens this image, especially for young boys. Now we can argue that this is just pride and blah blah blah, but the fact of the matter is that we aren’t going to change the nature of young boys by arguing about it.

You’re absolutely right. Arguing won’t change anyone’s nature, not just young boys.
However, endorsing the views you have outlined above is another matter. I would also question attempting to make serving at the altar appear more ‘masculine’ by preventing girls from doing it as a strategy to attract boys. I have two sons, and if one of them told they didn’t want to become an altar server because girls do it as well and they are concerned about their manly image, and that doing something girls can as well as boys do feminizes them, I would be giving them a serious talking to. Not that that would happen because in their short memories both girls and boys have always been altar servers, so they wouldn’t equate being an altar server with one gender. In addition, they both play football and have not been put off it because there are girls in their teams. Neither do they, or any of the other boys who play, consider football ‘girlie’ thing to do because girls now play in their team, or think football ‘feminizes’ them because girls play in their team. Therefore, if they don’t hold these opinions in relation to football, not to mention many other activities that both girls and boys participate in together, one would have to ask why they would have these opinions in relation to being altar servers?

Therefore, I stand by my opinion that the institution of altar girls is one of the reasons that there has been a drop in priestly vocations, because, through their own nature, it makes boys not want to do it, depriving them of the one experience they can have of doing some of the things the priest does.

I would have serious concerns about a young or adolescent boy who holds the views you have outlined above wanting to become a priest. Not wanting to do something just because girls can do it as well boys, and because he’s concerned about his ‘manly’ image would suggest to me that for a prospective priest, his attitude and disposition leaves something to be desired.