Going back to male servers?

[srp643]

I think the title of this thread should really be “Moving forward again with male servers?”

Having altar girls will diminish vocations by virtue of having less altar boys and, maybe as bad, create a whole generation of wannabe priestesses. The Church loses twice.

I serve sometimes 6 or 7 Latin Masses a week in NYC and it has changed my life. I enjoy great camaraderie with my fellow servers, Deo gratias.

 

[Tsuwano]

I think the title of this thread should really be “Moving forward again with male servers?”

Having altar girls will diminish vocations by virtue of having less altar boys and, maybe as bad, create a whole generation of wannabe priestesses. The Church loses twice.

I serve sometimes 6 or 7 Latin Masses a week in NYC and it has changed my life. I enjoy great camaraderie with my fellow servers, Deo gratias.

I’m glad that serving the priest at the altar has changed your life, but I disagree with your statement that female altar servers diminish vocations. There is no proof that this is true, only opinion. Why should the presence of female altar servers mean fewer male altar servers? Secondly, what makes you think that female altar servers wish to be “wannabe priestesses?” My experience with female altar servers is that their experience as servers helps them grow in faith and understanding of the Church’s position on women priests. Isn’t that something we should promote?

 

[DaveBj]

Serving at the Lords altar is an honour and a grace and should be treated like one. I am an adult male server (in training) - the first in my parishes 45 year long history up today of date.

Soon i will also start my training to become an altar server at the traditional latin mass.
It is might odd for some (or many), but feels good and 100 % right to do.

I serve as Altar Geezer at the OF weekday morning Masses at our parish when the deacon is out of town. It is an awesome experience every time.

 

[Kit15]

Secondly, what makes you think that female altar servers wish to be “wannabe priestesses?” My experience with female altar servers is that their experience as servers helps them grow in faith and understanding of the Church’s position on women priests. Isn’t that something we should promote?

I was going to say… :ehh:

Tsuwano, you basically summed up my own experience as a former female server (OF only of course). The experience was very enriching but even a 5th grade girl can understand and accept the male priesthood. I never once entertained the thought of becoming a “priestess” because it never even occurred to me. A reader or a cantor maybe…but never EVER a priestess.

Give girls *some *credit here. Most of us are not fools setting ourselves up for disappointment.

 

[severus68]

I’m glad that serving the priest at the altar has changed your life, but I disagree with your statement that female altar servers diminish vocations. There is no proof that this is true, only opinion. Why should the presence of female altar servers mean fewer male altar servers? Secondly, what makes you think that female altar servers wish to be “wannabe priestesses?” My experience with female altar servers is that their experience as servers helps them grow in faith and understanding of the Church’s position on women priests. Isn’t that something we should promote?

Good response.

 

[Corki]

I’m glad that serving the priest at the altar has changed your life, but I disagree with your statement that female altar servers diminish vocations. There is no proof that this is true, only opinion. Why should the presence of female altar servers mean fewer male altar servers? Secondly, what makes you think that female altar servers wish to be “wannabe priestesses?” My experience with female altar servers is that their experience as servers helps them grow in faith and understanding of the Church’s position on women priests. Isn’t that something we should promote?

There are two threads currently active on this same topic so I apologize if this is a repeat.

The argument is NOT that female altar servers directly diminish vocations. Rather, the point is that by making altar serving a co-ed oportunity, some of the oportunites that boys have to consider a vocation are lost or diminished.

For example, there was a poster on the other thread that talked about outings the altar servers went on to the seminary, dinners with the Bishop to discuss vocations, father-son activities. All of those activities are aimed at helping boys discern if priesthood is something to consider and none of those activities could be done with girls in the mix. This is something we should promote.

Why should the presence of female altar servers mean fewer male altar servers?

In some parishes, there are limited spaces available for servers. Having girls means fewer “spots” open for boys or that everyone serves infrequently. It’s just the math.

There is also the fact that, at least in some parishes, girls take the place of boys by driving them away, purposely or not.

In my own parish, we had a family with three girls who were very eager to serve often. They would come extra early to Mass, get dressed as servers and when the scheduled servers arrived (on time), they would tell the boys “too late, we got here first”. That didn’t happen too many times before the boys gave up. Father had to step in and tell the girls to stop doing this, which of course made their mother quite angy.

There is no real doubt, in my mind at least, that serving at the altar is good for girls. But it **may be **bad for boys and it may not be good for the Church as a whole - either the larger Church or the local parish. That is why the Church lets the Bishop decide for the diocese and, if the Bishop allows girls, the priest can decide for his parish.

 

[Te_Deum]

If you want to know what you should be doing at Mass, male or female, look to Our Blessed Lady… what is the Mass? It is the Holy Sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross re-presented to us in an un-bloody manner on our altars… and Our Blessed Lady was kneeling at the foot of the altar of the Holy Cross offering the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, as well as her own immense sorrow, to God the Father.

That’s the laity’s place. The priest, when offering the Holy Sacrifice, is Christ. Christ is offering Christ and the acting of serving that altar is an extension of the priestly ministry, in other word’s, Christ’s ministry. And so should be restricted to males only (NOTE: I am not saying altar servers are acting in the person of Christ, I am not saying that I, an altar server, am an Alter Christus and I am not saying an altar server—assuming it is not priest acting as a server for another priest!—can confect the Most Holy Eucharist).

The problem that has allowed for female servers is that change of emphasis about what the Mass is. Namely, the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Holy Cross.

 

[minkymurph]

I heard a pretty good argument recently as to why we should go back to all male altar servers, and as an adolescent boy myself I can definitely testify to this.

The adolescent boy and girl are (and I’m doing a lot of generalization here) totally different creatures. If there is something that needs to be done, the adolescent girl is on the case ready to do what needs to be done. The adolescent boy, on the other hand, is pretty selfish and just wants to lie around and hang out with his friends. Therefore, when girls start serving at the altar, the boys think “well, this job is already filled” and are no longer attracted to it.

I agree with the comparison you draw between adolescent girls and boys. I agree they are different creatures. However, do we condone the adolescent male view, ‘if girls are serving I have no need to do it?’ Do we condone the view that if girls may be doing something in the service of God, there is no need for boys to do it? If God is calling both men and women to serve Him and the faith community, then it is just as important for boys to serve as well as girls? Were do we get the idea that if an adolescent girl is doing something in the service of God, there is no need for an adolescent boy to do it? Why is the ‘job’ of serving ‘filled’ simply because a girl does it? The ‘job’ of serving others is not filled simply because girls do it. Boys many think, ‘well the job is filled because the girls are doing that.’ Should we condone that and covertly or otherwise encourage them to think that if a girl does something in the service of God, there is no need for a boy to do it? Do we encourage boys to follow selfish thinking, by encouraging the view if girls serve at the altar there is no need for us to do it? Should we encourage young boys to think if a girl gives to charity, or serves in the missions they don’t need to because girls can do that? Should we not permit women to give to charity, working for charitable institutions, serve in the missions, or teach young children because if we don’t, it makes it less attractive for young boys and they will see no need to do it?

A recent study of new priests showed that aside from being Catholic males, the most common characteristics among them was that they had served as altar boys. By allowing altar girls, the Church is degrading one of the best sources of vocations.

This is an interesting choice of phrase. Why would permitting a girl/women to do something in the service of God degrade the service?’ Do you see a problem with saying if a girl/woman is permitted to do something in the service of God, the service is degraded?

 

[Corki]

This is an interesting choice of phrase. Why would permitting a girl/women to do something in the service of God degrade the service?’ Do you see a problem with saying if a girl/woman is permitted to do something in the service of God, the service is degraded?

The service is not degraded. The opportunity for that service to be a source of encouragement for vocations is degraded.

 

[srp643]

There are two threads currently active on this same topic so I apologize if this is a repeat.

The argument is NOT that female altar servers directly diminish vocations. Rather, the point is that by making altar serving a co-ed oportunity, some of the oportunites that boys have to consider a vocation are lost or diminished.

For example, there was a poster on the other thread that talked about outings the altar servers went on to the seminary, dinners with the Bishop to discuss vocations, father-son activities. All of those activities are aimed at helping boys discern if priesthood is something to consider and none of those activities could be done with girls in the mix. This is something we should promote.

In some parishes, there are limited spaces available for servers. Having girls means fewer “spots” open for boys or that everyone serves infrequently. It’s just the math.

There is also the fact that, at least in some parishes, girls take the place of boys by driving them away, purposely or not.

In my own parish, we had a family with three girls who were very eager to serve often. They would come extra early to Mass, get dressed as servers and when the scheduled servers arrived (on time), they would tell the boys “too late, we got here first”. That didn’t happen too many times before the boys gave up. Father had to step in and tell the girls to stop doing this, which of course made their mother quite angy.

There is no real doubt, in my mind at least, that serving at the altar is good for girls. But it **may be **bad for boys and it may not be good for the Church as a whole - either the larger Church or the local parish. That is why the Church lets the Bishop decide for the diocese and, if the Bishop allows girls, the priest can decide for his parish.

Yep, exactly. I serve tons of OF Masses and if girls get involved the boys rarely come back if ever. Coming back less means less boys serving Mass, fewer boys interacting with priests, which ultimately means less vocational discernment. If people can’t see that, I don’t know how to help you but it doesn’t change the facts or the logic. Somehow through the ages girls have been able to develop into great Catholic women and saints without being altarservers. Our Blessed Mother was never a priest or an altarserver and she remains the greatest of all human beings.

As for wannabe priestesses, it is only natural and logical that a certain percentage of altargirls will want to take it to the next level later on. Since they can never be priests, this can actually serve to frustrate the female and diminish her faith, not build it up. The female and the Church lose in that case. Let’s remember this is a Traditional Catholic forum, Deo gratias.

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

No, I will not. Cause I have no intention on getting married because I intend to be a Priest, whichh should be an ultimate goal for Altar BOYS. (One of many fruits of going to an all-male server Parish).

~ Pius :knight1:

The ultimate goal of being an altar boy is to be a priest? While I can certainly see how serving at the altar could help a boy learn things about the priesthood and help in his discernment, I do not think that it should be the ultimate goal. The ultimate goal of being an altar boy is to serve the Lord with joy and gladness, and to perform one’s duties to the best of one’s abilities. If God desires a man for the priesthood, He shall lead them there, altar boy or no.

 

[severus68]

Yep, exactly. I serve tons of OF Masses and if girls get involved the boys rarely come back if ever. Coming back less means less boys serving Mass, fewer boys interacting with priests, which ultimately means less vocational discernment. If people can’t see that, I don’t know how to help you but it doesn’t change the facts or the logic. Somehow through the ages girls have been able to develop into great Catholic women and saints without being altarservers. Our Blessed Mother was never a priest or an altarserver and she remains the greatest of all human beings.

As for wannabe priestesses, it is only natural and logical that a certain percentage of altargirls will want to take it to the next level later on. Since they can never be priests, this can actually serve to frustrate the female and diminish her faith, not build it up. The female and the Church lose in that case. Let’s remember this is a Traditional Catholic forum, Deo gratias.

I am sure you were not trying to be insulting but perhaps you should not refer to girls/women as “the female” but rather to’female altar servers" Thank you.

Why is it natural and logical that some altar girls would want to be priests? If someone stays in the Church, attends mass, wants to serve at mass, it is highly unlikely that that person is going to insist that she should be a priest. There may be some who do not understand the ruling against women priests but the vast majority accept it. The ones who do not get the publicity.

This is a Catholic forum. Please do not add in labels.

 

[Tsuwano]

If you want to know what you should be doing at Mass, male or female, look to Our Blessed Lady… what is the Mass? It is the Holy Sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross re-presented to us in an un-bloody manner on our altars… and Our Blessed Lady was kneeling at the foot of the altar of the Holy Cross offering the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, as well as her own immense sorrow, to God the Father.

That’s the laity’s place. The priest, when offering the Holy Sacrifice, is Christ. Christ is offering Christ and the acting of serving that altar is an extension of the priestly ministry, in other word’s, Christ’s ministry. And so should be restricted to males only (NOTE: I am not saying altar servers are acting in the person of Christ, I am not saying that I, an altar server, am an Alter Christus and I am not saying an altar server—assuming it is not priest acting as a server for another priest!—can confect the Most Holy Eucharist).

The problem that has allowed for female servers is that change of emphasis about what the Mass is. Namely, the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Holy Cross.

Well, the Church itself doesn’t necessarily think the role of serving the priest at the altar should be limited to males. It has given the bishop of each diocese the option of allowing female altar servers and many bishops do allow it. I would also add that all ministries within the Church participate in the ministry of Christ, not only the priestly ministry. I disagree that the presence of female altar servers is the result of" a change of emphasis about what the mass is." I think it is more likely the result of an expansion in understanding of what constitutes ministry or service to the Church community and who the Holy Spirit is able to call to perform that ministry. Some ministries are limited by sex, but others, such as serving at the altar, are not, and bishops are able to allow female altar servers if they wish.

 

[minkymurph]

The service is not degraded. The opportunity for that service to be a source of encouragement for vocations is degraded.

OK rephrase -

The opportunity for altar serving to be a source of encouragement for vocations is degraded by the presence of female altar servers?

 

[Corki]

OK rephrase -

The opportunity for altar serving to be a source of encouragement for vocations is degraded by the presence of female altar servers?

Yes.

Many of the activities and conversations that can be held for a group of boys to encourage discernment of a priestly vocation cannot be held with a group of girls and boys together.

 

[agnes_therese]

I think the title of this thread should really be “Moving forward again with male servers?”

Having altar girls will diminish vocations by virtue of having less altar boys and, maybe as bad, create a whole generation of wannabe priestesses. The Church loses twice.

I serve sometimes 6 or 7 Latin Masses a week in NYC and it has changed my life. I enjoy great camaraderie with my fellow servers, Deo gratias.

My OF parish has not had any decrease in the number of altar boys, and not one of the girls serving has expressed any interest in being a “priestess.” You are over-generalizing.

 

[minkymurph]

Yes.

Many of the activities and conversations that can be held for a group of boys to encourage discernment of a priestly vocation cannot be held with a group of girls and boys together.

I can see how having a conversation to encourage the vocation of priesthood might be meaningless to a group of boys and girls; but degrading?

Serving at the altar may be an activity to encourage boys into the priesthood. However, as ‘degrade’ is a very strong term to use, can you expand on how this activity is ‘degraded’ if girls carry it out?

Other than serving at the altar, does the Church encourage priestly vocations by any other method? Is serving at the altar the only means or method of encouraging the vocation of priesthood?

 

[Corki]

I can see how having a conversation to encourage the vocation of priesthood might be meaningless to a group of boys and girls; but degrading?

Serving at the altar may be an activity to encourage boys into the priesthood. However, as ‘degrade’ is a very strong term to use, can you expand on how this activity is ‘degraded’ if girls carry it out?

Definition:

Degrade - to lower to a less effective level, to impair in structure or function.

Many of the activities and conversations that can be held for a group of boys to encourage discernment of a priestly vocation cannot be held with a group of girls and boys together. This degrades altar service as a possible environment for encouraging vocations.

Other than serving at the altar, does the Church encourage priestly vocations by any other method? Is serving at the altar the only means or method of encouraging the vocation of priesthood?

Absolutely the Church has other methods of encouraging vocations and the fact that you haven’t seen any is troubling. In the current climate every possible means to reach young men should be employed.

 

[minkymurph]

Definition:

Degrade - to lower to a less effective level, to impair in structure or function.

Many of the activities and conversations that can be held for a group of boys to encourage discernment of a priestly vocation cannot be held with a group of girls and boys together. This degrades altar service as a possible environment for encouraging vocations.

That’s one definition. It also means:

Treat with contempt or disrespect, dishonor, disgrace, scandal, lower in dignity, strip of rank and honor, lower to an inferior level.

‘Degrade’ used in these contexts rather than making less effective.Weaken or diminish would be less emotive terms to describe impairment in structure or function, or lower to a less effective level. I would associate the term ‘degrade’ with being abused and humiliated.

Absolutely the Church has other methods of encouraging vocations and the fact that you haven’t seen any is troubling. In the current climate every possible means to reach young men should be employed.

Such as?

The only training ground for the priesthood I know of here is St Malachy’s College, and all boys school for 11 - 18 year old’s in Belfast. It has always seen as a training ground for the priesthood. I suppose that’s one of the reasons I don’t see the issue with altar servers. If you want to encourage your son into the priesthood, you send him to St Malachy’s. It’s just taken for granted it happens there. Education at St Malachy’s is geared towards entering the priesthood, it has a really good reputation and they offer a really high standard of education, but you have to be really academic to get into it. I think the Assistant bishop teaches there, or is certainly very involved with it.

However, a lot of boys don’t want to go to it for these very reasons. They feel if they go there they’ll be pushed towards the priesthood, that it will be covertly expected of them to enter the priesthood, and won’t be viewed in a good light if they don’t want to become a priest.

 

[Anniesantiago]

This answer is based on nothing more than my own feelings:

When I see a female server I’m uncomfortable with it.
I prefer to see boys serving.

I have the same feeling about accepting the Host from someone other than the Priest.
I won’t do it…
It doesn’t feel right.
No matter where I’m sitting, I’ll get into the line that goes to the Priest.

I do my best not to be judgmental about this; I simply follow my heart and gut.